617 Sqdn Canberras: nose flash colours

[David Womby]

I am about to start a 617 Sqdn Canberra build.   Unfortunately, there's not a lot of reference material on those and especially not photos. So, AFAIK:

 

617 got their first Canberras in Jan 1952 at Binbrook.    Canberras serialed up to  WD986 were delivered in MSG/Black andWD987 onwards were MSG/LSG/PRU Blue.   

 

According to Bowyer's 'Bombing Colours', 617 put red flashes on the nose when delivered (as depicted on the restored WK163) but he says later, referring to approx. 1954, 'At Binbrook the lightning flash was retained. 617 Squadron had now adopted blue.'   Then in an appendix he says: '617 Sqdn. 1.52-12.55 Used B Mk2 with dark blue nose lightning flash.  There is some evidence that some aircraft of the squadron also wore a red flash like WH706 in use 6.53.  WJ980, in use 9.53, had a blue flash.' 

 

The book also has one photo - of WD995 in a climb in August 1952 - clearly in the MSG/LSG/PRU scheme and with a flash but is it red or blue?  His description calls out the flash as being red.  There's a similar image here:  WD995

 

SAM V3N1 Oct 1980 has a tone drawing of WD995 wearing  the MSG/LSG/PRU scheme in August 1952 but describes the flash as being dark blue!!

 

Kits at War decals sheet K7/1 has decals for WD995 in the same camo but says it depicts her in 1955 and provides a dark blue flash.  Of course, they may not have done any original research and just have based their sheet on the info.  in SAM.

 

Airfix Magazine V21N11 July 1980 and article by T.A. brown says 'RAF Binbrook nose flash colours.............617 Squadron Dark Blue nose flash' and includes a drawing of a silver 617 B2 with the blue flash' but no date for this.

 

In RAF CANBERRA UNITS OF THE COLD WAR by Andrew Brookes has a photo of WD980 in 1953 in the MSG/Black scheme and to my eyes, she's got a red nose flash.

 

Bomber Squadrons of the RAF by Philip Moyes has a great pic of WD997 in MSG/LSG/PRU and describes he nose flash as blue but gives no date.

 

Where does that lot leave me?    I think any change in flash colour probably happened from red to blue sometime in 1953.  I have no idea why it would be changed though.   The SAM date of Aug 52 with blue flash doesn't fit my theory but I am thinking that pre 1954, they all had red flashes regardless of camo scheme and 1954 and later all had blue flashes.    Does that sound a reasonable assumption based on what I have read? 

 

Anybody got other evidence or thoughts to offer, please?

 

David

PS - As I reread what I have written, I realise how obsessive I am becoming over this kind of thing and how hard it is to get certainty.

[Graham Boak]

A Flight/B Flight?

[David Womby]

Good thought, Graham, but I don't think so.   The books are pretty consistent referring to the nose flashes as being to distinguish squadrons based at Binbrook.

David

[Graham Boak]

OK.  In that case which other squadrons and what colours did they use?  Was one of them a senior (ie longer established) unit with a history of red as a squadron colour, so it could pull rank on 607 to change from red to blue?  Assuming that's what they did.

[David Womby]

You may have something there, Graham.  The flashes were only on Binbrook Canberras and Bowyer says at first 101 used a black/white flash and 617 red.   9 squadron got their Canberras later and he says they had blue flashes but the SAM depicts one of theirs in 1953 with red flashes and the Airfix Mag also says 9 squadron had red flashes and 617 blue.   So you may have found why they changed red to blue.

David

[canberra kid]

I will have a look later David, but blue springs to mind, but my mind is full of al sorts of junk so I could well be wrong.😊

John

 

[Graham Boak]

That won't have helped the long-standing rivalry between 617 and 9 squadrons.  Not that it was particularly long-standing in 1952.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Graham Boak

[David Womby]

1 hour ago, canberra kid said:

I will have a look later David, but blue springs to mind, but my mind is full of al sorts of junk so I could well be wrong.😊

John

 

Thanks, John.  

[71chally]

Worth noting here what the markings meant.

 

Initially there were so many Canberra squadrons forming on a relatively few airfields that each airfield formed a 'wing' as such.

This helped by centralising servincing, HQs and admin.

Each of those stations/wings had a marking applied to the aircraft, so Binbrook the lighting flash on the nose, Honington the rising Pheasant, Scampton a Speedbird, Cottesmore a horseshoe & horn, Marham coloured tip tanks, Wittering check fin markings and Hemswell a triangular fin flash.

The squadrons within that station/wing would have different colours to the markings to identify them, and sometimes wear a separate squadron marking.

 

Just as an indicator of how quickly the Canberra came on stream, by late 1952 Binbrook had five Sqns, Conningsby had five and Scampton four Sqns by late the following year, and Marham had four Sqns by Spring 1954.

 

The allocated colours for Binbrook  squadrons were,

101 white, then black & white

617 red

12 gold

9 blue

50 orange

 

 

Anyway, all this is waffle,

I suspect Graham could be right and that a change in colour possibly resulted from a squadron move and that the colour represented seniority, or could it even be something as simple as a case of two Sqns sharing an aircraft within a wing or the flash not being repainted?

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by 71chally

[canberra kid]

Ok, at the risk of being proved an idiot, I'm sticking my neck on the block and going with blue! there I've said it.

John 

[David Womby]

Thanks, John.

 

Silver wingtip tanks on that one?

 

David

[canberra kid]

Looks like it David, they must have been new stock. 

John

[Rabbit Leader]

I know some folk seem to discredit old publications for newly found evidence, however in the case of MJFB’s “Bombing Colours” quite a lot what is written is all from first hand eye witness accounts. He was obviously passionate about his research and work so would think that he would have accurately  documented what he saw. 

 

I’d tend to accept most of the captions in this book especially anything post war and UK based. Now I could be wrong with this fairly generic assumption, but that’s my theory anyway. 

 

I suppose having had a copy of this book since my early years and read the same chapters countless times I’m unashamedly a little bit biased! 

 

Cheers.. Dave

[David Womby]

1 minute ago, Rabbit Leader said:

I know some folk seem to discredit old publications for newly found evidence, however in the case of MJB’s “Bombing Colours” quite a lot what is written is all from first hand eye witness accounts. He was obviously passionate about his research and work so would think that he would have accurately  documented what he saw. 

 

I’d tend to accept most of the captions in this book especially anything post war and UK based. Now I could be wrong with this fairly generic assumption, but that’s my theory anyway. 

 

I suppose having had a copy of this book since my early years and read the same chapters countless times I’m unashamedly a little bit biased! 

 

Cheers.. Dave

I totally agree.   Brilliant books and I rely on him a lot.  He took notes on the spot rather than interpreting old B&W pics as we do.    I think he got it right and the flash changed from red to blue at some stage approx 1953.

 

David

[larumivi1951]

Canberra B.2, WD997, 617 Squadron:

[71chally]

Both Peter Green and Les Bywaters site 617 sqn as being red and they were both keen Canberra spotters, the former especially relevant as he was near Binbrook when the squadrons arrived.

I absolutely agree that spotters and enthusiasts etc strive to get things right, but things can be jotted down wrong, info lost in translation, and even publication misprints.

I just can't see why the 617 colour would have gone from red to blue (or even vice versa as in the above post), red was the colour of the 617 lightning motif anyway.

 

WD997 was a 9 Squadron Canberra, so John would be right with the blue colour of the flash.

Reading the info the first post again I don't think that there was a deliberate colour change, just jets from different squadrons of the same station being swapped around.

[David Womby]

I thought we had this sorted out but now I am getting  confused again.

 

David

[vildebeest]

Red, at least for 1953 period. My Dad did his national service as an engine fitter on 617 Canberras at Binbrook and used to get very upset when he saw profiles with blue lightning streaks. Blue was used by another squadron at Binbrook, 9 off the top of my head, and he described how on night operations when the Canberras were taxying in, the ground crew would shine a torch on the lightning flash to see which squadron the plane belonged to

 

Paul 

[David Womby]

29 minutes ago, vildebeest said:

Red, at least for 1953 period. My Dad did his national service as an engine fitter on 617 Canberras at Binbrook and used to get very upset when he saw profiles with blue lightning streaks. Blue was used by another squadron at Binbrook, 9 off the top of my head, and he described how on night operations when the Canberras were taxying in, the ground crew would shine a torch on the lightning flash to see which squadron the plane belonged to

 

Paul 

Thanks.   Based on everything above, I am leaning towards doing an MSG/Black one with red nose flash.

 

David

[Antti_K]

15 hours ago, canberra kid said:

Ok, at the risk of being proved an idiot, I'm sticking my neck on the block and going with blue! there I've said it.

John 

I'm with John. Compare the flash on the nose to the fin flash or roundel. In this photo red seems darker so the original photo was shot on orthochromatic film (blue appears lighter and red darker). I would go for blue rather than red..

 

Kind Regards,

Antti

[71chally]

1 hour ago, David Womby said:

I thought we had this sorted out but now I am getting  confused again.

 

David

15 hours ago, David Womby said:

I think he got it right and the flash changed from red to blue at some stage approx 1953.

 

David

Personally speaking I don't see the confusion, but then I'm probably looking at it in a certain way though.  I don't think the flash colour changed.

 

617 Canberras had red flashes, 9 blue, they were both within the same station wing and I think that any reference to 617 having blue has come from moving jets around, a misunderstanding or typo.

At least one of the posts mentions WD997 as being with 617 sqn, when it is only listed as being with 9 sqn in the Clemons book.

So, I think someone has taken this to be a 617 aircraft wearing a blue flash.

 

Of course I could be completely wrong, but I would need to see some really good evidence to convince me so.

 

Edited March 21, 2018 by 71chally

[David Womby]

Agreed, James.  I think I am safe with a red flash on an MSG/Black airframe according to all our cited sources.

David

[vildebeest]

1 hour ago, David Womby said:

Agreed, James.  I think I am safe with a red flash on an MSG/Black airframe according to all our cited sources.

 

What serial number are you going for?

 

Paul

[David Womby]

I think it will have to be WD980, Paul.  I have a photo of her in MSG/Black supposedly with 617 in 1953 and the nose flash does LOOK red.

David 

[vildebeest]

David

 

Going back to your original post, my Dad had a photo of three 617 Canberras in flight which he worked on. Two were WD982 and WD955 in MSG/Black and with red nose flash (and squadron crests). The third I had thought was WD988 but my recollection was that that was also in MSG/black which contradicts your statement that after 986 they went to the PRU blue scheme. I will have to try to find that photo next time I am at my Mum's.

 

Paul