Sherman II Normandy question

[rogerhunt]

Hi… I’m hoping someone more knowledgeable on British Shermans can help me. I have an Asuka Sherman M4A1 mid-production (35-010) in my stash and I’d like to use it as a basis for a County of London Yeomanry Sherman II; looking at references though, the CLY seemed to use late M4A1s with M34A1 gun mounts and later differential covers. I have the gun mount and differential cover in my spares box, so my question is, are there any other features that would need updating beyond adding British aerials and extinguishers, or would I be better just sourcing a late M4A1 kit?

 

Thanks in advance, Roger

[RAF4EVER]

Maybe @Bullbasket can help.

[Bullbasket]

I'm afraid that my knowledge isn't of much help. Not knowing what kit you are using makes it more difficult also.  @Kingsman would be of more use to you.

 

John.

[rogerhunt]

2 minutes ago, Bullbasket said:

I'm afraid that my knowledge isn't of much help. Not knowing what kit you are using makes it more difficult also.  @Kingsman would be of more use to you.

 

John.

Thanks John

 

The kit is the Asuka Sherman M4A1 Mid Production (35010). 

[Kingsman]

Don’t forget the turret rear blanket box.  Spare track link holders on the glacis were pretty common.  Some units used the rear sections of the sandshields to make stowage holders either side of the engine deck in front of the air scoops. But I don't think CLY was one of those. 

 

If the kit doesn't have the 2" mortar in the turret - and with the narrow gun mount it almost certainly didn't as it wasn't a factory fit until the loader's hatch was introduced - then you will need to add the mortar hole or external smoke mortars on the right of the turret.

[John Tapsell]

Also might be worth contacting Dan Taylor (Dan Taylor Modelworks - https://www.dantaylormodelworks.com/). He is a well-established trader but he is also curator of the Sharpshooters Museum at Hever Castle (https://www.ksymuseum.org.uk/).

[rogerhunt]

2 hours ago, Kingsman said:

Don’t forget the turret rear blanket box.  Spare track link holders on the glacis were pretty common.  Some units used the rear sections of the sandshields to make stowage holders either side of the engine deck in front of the air scoops. But I don't think CLY was one of those. 

 

If the kit doesn't have the 2" mortar in the turret - and with the narrow gun mount it almost certainly didn't as it wasn't a factory fit until the loader's hatch was introduced - then you will need to add the mortar hole or external smoke mortars on the right of the turret.

Thanks… I have a specific vehicle in mind with spare track held horizontally across the glacis. I’ve got most of the British specific features left over from an old Firefly build, including the sand shields. 
 

Do you know if there were any or many significant differences in the hull between the mid and late production M4A1s? If I can get away with updating the mid (gun mount and diff cover), that would be great. 

[Bullbasket]

Have a look on this site. You may find your answers there.

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/index.html

 

John.

[Kingsman]

No the hull did not change between deleting the DV slits and the 'large hatch' revision.  Although the last few hundred had the cast-in applique bumps on the hull sides instead of the welded-on plates. At that time they were only being made by 1 foundry.

 

You might need to look at the turret.  Front right applique or thick cheek - or nothing?  Pistol port or not, or welded up?  There are combinations here that are incompatible.  Look on the Minuria site linked by @Bullbasket

[rogerhunt]

1 hour ago, Kingsman said:

No the hull did not change between deleting the DV slits and the 'large hatch' revision.  Although the last few hundred had the cast-in applique bumps on the hull sides instead of the welded-on plates. At that time they were only being made by 1 foundry.

 

You might need to look at the turret.  Front right applique or thick cheek - or nothing?  Pistol port or not, or welded up?  There are combinations here that are incompatible.  Look on the Minuria site linked by @Bullbasket

Thanks again for all your help. I’m thinking about modelling this vehicle (Henry the Fifth):

 

 

I don’t think the Asuka mid production is worth trying to adapt so I’ll save it for another project and instead try to source a late production Asuka.
 

It might be my eyes, but the tracks appear to be T54E2s on the vehicle’s right (left in the photo) and T62s on the left (you can just make make out the rivets). 

[rogerhunt]

7 hours ago, Bullbasket said:

Have a look on this site. You may find your answers there.

http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/index.html

 

John.

Thanks… I’ve browsed this site before and the detail available is incredible. My Sherman knowledge is fairly limited and getting beyond the basics is a challenge. 

[Kingsman]

Agreed on the tracks.  The T62s are certainly field replacements as they were only factory fit on M4A4s.  Potentially you could get away with shaving the rivets off the T62s to make the T54E2s.  The grouser shape was almost identical as the T62 was a riveted alternative to the cast T54E2.

 

Unfortunately the hull here is a late one with the cast-in applique.  You can see the shadows under the bumps, which had flat bottoms to allow the sandshield strips.  The turret is going to be a thick cheek type at that age.  Question is, does it have no pistol port or does it have a pistol port and a loader's hatch?  Both are feasible but you can't see, so no way of knowing.  Your guess is as good as mine.

 

I can't think of a kit in that configuration.  None of the Asuka or Dragon A1s have the cast-in applique hull.  You'd be looking at a resin hull from TWS or some card and filler.

[rogerhunt]

9 hours ago, Kingsman said:

Agreed on the tracks.  The T62s are certainly field replacements as they were only factory fit on M4A4s.  Potentially you could get away with shaving the rivets off the T62s to make the T54E2s.  The grouser shape was almost identical as the T62 was a riveted alternative to the cast T54E2.

 

Unfortunately the hull here is a late one with the cast-in applique.  You can see the shadows under the bumps, which had flat bottoms to allow the sandshield strips.  The turret is going to be a thick cheek type at that age.  Question is, does it have no pistol port or does it have a pistol port and a loader's hatch?  Both are feasible but you can't see, so no way of knowing.  Your guess is as good as mine.

 

I can't think of a kit in that configuration.  None of the Asuka or Dragon A1s have the cast-in applique hull.  You'd be looking at a resin hull from TWS or some card and filler.

I think Panzer Art also do the hull with the cast-in armour (not sure about the turret), but I might try my hand at doing it myself… what could possibly go wrong 😳

[Kingsman]

Yes you are right -, Panzer Art do that hull.  I'd forgotten them.  Easier to get hold of than anything TWS.  They actaully do 2.  One with the "cast-in" applique that you need (RE35-100) and one with the later welded-on cast applique plates.  Confusing, eh?  The original cut plates didn't fit the cast hull contours, which is why you see them cut into pieces to make them fit.  Later, contoured cast plates were introduced to remedy this.  Dragon have just re-released their mid A1 with 3D printed cast plates.

 

Panzer Art's turret RE35-110 works.

 

Card patches with bevelled edges and filler should work, but fitting to the contours might need some heat bending and little fillets cut out, especially for the turret cheek.  They were probably no more than 1mm thick in scale.

[Bullbasket]

Just a word of warning about ordering from PanzerArt. Look at this thread first. I stress that I have no experience of the, just passing on the info.

 

John.

[Kingsman]

I was about to order some stuff from them direct as finding it all in the UK is not easy and is generally more expensive even allowing for the shipping.  But that thread is now 9 years old when PA were young and things might have changed.  In those days I got mine from Jadar Model in Warsaw or Modellbau Koenig or Der Sockelshop in Germany.  All 3 are reliable in my experience.  The only PA stockists in the UK are Wildcat's Models and Fields of Glory.  IMO Wildcat's keeps a better stock.  It's a lot of investment for them - dead money - to keep stock of things like the hull and turret we're discussing here that might sell once in a blue moon.  The PA range is well over 700 items now.  But I imagine that one of them would special order something for you.

 

Wildcats are currently out of stock of the hull and turret needed here.  FOG don't even list them.

[rogerhunt]

21 hours ago, Kingsman said:

Yes you are right -, Panzer Art do that hull.  I'd forgotten them.  Easier to get hold of than anything TWS.  They actaully do 2.  One with the "cast-in" applique that you need (RE35-100) and one with the later welded-on cast applique plates.  Confusing, eh?  The original cut plates didn't fit the cast hull contours, which is why you see them cut into pieces to make them fit.  Later, contoured cast plates were introduced to remedy this.  Dragon have just re-released their mid A1 with 3D printed cast plates.

 

Panzer Art's turret RE35-110 works.

 

Card patches with bevelled edges and filler should work, but fitting to the contours might need some heat bending and little fillets cut out, especially for the turret cheek.  They were probably no more than 1mm thick in scale.

I’m coming round to the idea of modelling another CLY Sherman II (Azrael) on the grounds that it might save me some time and money, plus I’ve got a set of Star decals for it 🙂

 

I’ve found it difficult to tell if Azrael had cast-in armour (it certainly doesn’t appear to have appliqué armour), and I couldn’t find anything to suggest it didn’t have a pistol port, so I’m tempted to gamble on no cast-in armour and a pistol port, and use a late Asuka M4A1 as a starting point. 

[Kingsman]

The Dan Taylor Modelworks decal set shows Azrael (below) with what looks like welded-on applique armour and a late low-bustle turret with the loader's hatch (a comparative rarity).  BUT the image partly visible on the right of the diagrams clearly shows the cast-in variety if that is meant to be an image of Azrael.  Turret zip number is 12, which matches.  It also has the sand shield stowage bins I mentioned before, in this case covering the grouser compartment vent scoops.

 

If the image is indeed Azrael, then that is no easier to model than your previous idea.  I suspect that CLY got a batch of similarly-configured vehicles.  While neither US Tank Depots nor the British supply system differentiated betwen "brands" of each model of M4 they tended to arrive at Tank Depots by the trainload from the manufacturers and were probably largely processed thus.  Tanks that were up to date for essential modifcations were probably processed straight out, whereas those requiring modification fits in depot would take longer to process.  PSC were the last producer of 75mm M4A1s. moving to the rare large-hatch version and then the 76mm.  PSC were also probably the most rapid introducers of required improvements.  They introduced the welded cast applique panels in Sept 43 followed by the cast-in applique in October 43 (ultimately the last 400 small-hatch hulls).  The "high bustle" turret appears in Nov 43, a month earlier than the "large hatch" hull which required it.  The loader's hatch was introduced on the low bustle turret in October, meaning that there were 4 1-month-only build configurations in Sept - Dec 43.  So although DT shows a low-bustle turret with loader's hatch it could conceivebly be high bustle.  But the image with the DT decals is definitely low bustle.

 

The pipeline time from factory door to units was still probably 4-5 months at that time.  It only came down to 3 months at the end of 1944.  So those Oct-Nov tanks would have been arriving with units about 2 months before D Day.

 

So as I see it, you have 3 possible build configurations for 3/4 CLY Sherman IIs in NWE.

1. small hatch hull, welded-on cast applique, low bustle turret no loader's hatch (Sept production)
2. small hatch hull, cast-in applique, low bustle turret with loader's hatch (Oct production)
3. small hatch hull, cast-in applique, high bustle turret with loader's hatch (Nov production)
4. I am discounting the large-hatch high-bustle possibility from Dec production as no-one has yet found one in Commonwealth service and only about 100 were made, with most going for DD conversion.

Unfortunately, while Panzer Art have the hulls for 1, 2 and 3, their "final" 75mm turret RE35-110 does NOT have the loader's hatch (so it isn't the "final" type......).  TMD do it (#1109), but they don't do an A1 hull with the cast-in applique, very surprisingly.  It's about $23 plus (expensive) shipping from the USA.  Asuka do the high-bustle turret with loader's hatch as a spare sprue from their M4A3 kit 35046 for a princely 350 Yen, or about £1.85.  But the shipping is a killer unless you make up a bundle from them.

 

Star decals are not to be trusted for vehicle configurations, and are often not to be trusted for markings either!  DT suggests that 3/4CLY had adopted the green over blue AOS about which there has been much discussion..  As he is the curator of the Sharpshooters Museum I would trust his info over Star any day.  Sadly he only produces decals in 1/76

 

Edited May 6 by Kingsman
correction

[rogerhunt]

3 hours ago, Kingsman said:

The Dan Taylor Modelworks decal set shows Azrael (below) with what looks like welded-on applique armour and a late low-bustle turret with the loader's hatch (a comparative rarity).  BUT the image partly visible on the right of the diagrams clearly shows the cast-in variety if that is meant to be an image of Azrael.  Turret zip number is 12, which matches.  It also has the sand shield stowage bins I mentioned before, in this case covering the grouser compartment vent scoops.

 

If the image is indeed Azrael, then that is no easier to model than your previous idea.  I suspect that CLY got a batch of similarly-configured vehicles.  While neither US Tank Depots nor the British supply system differentiated betwen "brands" of each model of M4 they tended to arrive at Tank Depots by the trainload from the manufacturers and were probably largely processed thus.  Tanks that were up to date for essential modifcations were probably processed straight out, whereas those requiring modification fits in depot would take longer to process.  PSC were the last producer of 75mm M4A1s. moving to the rare large-hatch version and then the 76mm.  PSC were also probably the most rapid introducers of required improvements.  They introduced the welded cast applique panels in Sept 43 followed by the cast-in applique in October 43 (ultimately the last 400 small-hatch hulls).  The "high bustle" turret appears in Nov 43, a month earlier than the "large hatch" hull which required it.  The loader's hatch was introduced on the low bustle turret in October, meaning that there were 4 1-month-only build configurations in Sept - Dec 43.  So although DT shows a low-bustle turret with loader's hatch it could conceivebly be high bustle.  But the image with the DT decals is definitely low bustle.

 

The pipeline time from factory door to units was still probably 4-5 months at that time.  It only came down to 3 months at the end of 1944.  So those Oct-Nov tanks would have been arriving with units about 2 months before D Day.

 

So as I see it, you have 3 possible build configurations for 3/4 CLY Sherman IIs in NWE.

1. small hatch hull, welded-on cast applique, low bustle turret no loader's hatch (Sept production) (re-released Dragon kit)
2. small hatch hull, cast-in applique, low bustle turret with loader's hatch (Oct production)
3. small hatch hull, cast-in applique, high bustle turret with loader's hatch (Nov production)
4. I am discounting the large-hatch high-bustle possibility from Dec production as no-one has yet found one in Commonwealth service and only about 100 were made, with most going for DD conversion.

Unfortunately, while Panzer Art have the hulls for 1, 2 and 3, their "final" 75mm turret RE35-110 does NOT have the loader's hatch (so it isn't the "final" type......).  TMD do it (#1109), but they don't do an A1 hull with the cast-in applique, very surprisingly.  It's about $23 plus (expensive) shipping from the USA.  Asuka do the high-bustle turret with loader's hatch as a spare sprue from their M4A3 kit 35046 for a princely 350 Yen, or about £1.85.  But the shipping is a killer unless you make up a bundle from them.

 

Star decals are not to be trusted for vehicle configurations, and are often not to be trusted for markings either!  DT suggests that 3/4CLY had adopted the green over blue AOS about which there has been much discussion..  As he is the curator of the Sharpshooters Museum I would trust his info over Star any day.  Sadly he only produces decals in 1/76

 

Thank you so much for the incredible detail and for your help. I think I’m getting a clearer picture of what I need, although I’m getting the feeling that I might have bitten off more than I can chew. I knew there was a reason I’ve been avoiding Shermans 😂
 

Thanks for the tip on Star Decals, although their set for ‘Azrael’ does include the green over blue AOS. 

[Kingsman]

Maybe a bit of a course correction.  Looking a bit more closely at the grainy Dan Taylor Azrael picture I now think that it probably has the welded-on cast applique patches as they curve up over the side contours more and are slightly more prominent than the cast-in type would be.  Apologies.  That means no turret loader's hatch or pistol port either.  Option 1 on the list above.

 

In a correction to the earlier post, the re-released Dragon kit only has the welded applique patches, not the later cast type.

 

That leaves the Panzer Art hull RE35-650.  But PA have not made a good job of the shape of the armour patches (and DT's drawing doesn't match either).  They do not match well the photos on the Minutia site.  In particular, they do not curve up high enough over the hull edge contours.  Which might leave you back with hot water shaping some plastic card patches, glueing and clamping them in stages before making the edge welds (no welds along the bottom edges because of the sandshield strips).  Much as you would do for the cast-in bumps.

 

 

[rogerhunt]

On 5/6/2024 at 6:51 AM, Kingsman said:

Maybe a bit of a course correction.  Looking a bit more closely at the grainy Dan Taylor Azrael picture I now think that it probably has the welded-on cast applique patches as they curve up over the side contours more and are slightly more prominent than the cast-in type would be.  Apologies.  That means no turret loader's hatch or pistol port either.  Option 1 on the list above.

 

In a correction to the earlier post, the re-released Dragon kit only has the welded applique patches, not the later cast type.

 

That leaves the Panzer Art hull RE35-650.  But PA have not made a good job of the shape of the armour patches (and DT's drawing doesn't match either).  They do not match well the photos on the Minutia site.  In particular, they do not curve up high enough over the hull edge contours.  Which might leave you back with hot water shaping some plastic card patches, glueing and clamping them in stages before making the edge welds (no welds along the bottom edges because of the sandshield strips).  Much as you would do for the cast-in bumps.

 

 

It’s certainly a mine field. So if I understand you correctly, appliqué armour (not cast-in armour) means no loaders hatch and no pistol port. If so, it looks like Panzer Art do a low bustle late turret with no loaders hatch and no pistol port (RE35-110), do you think that might do the job?

 

Next challenge will be to find someone in the UK that has it in stock. 

Edited May 9 by rogerhunt

[Kingsman]

The late cast applique armour certainly means neither pistol port nor loader's hatch.  That type of applique was only factory-applied so there is a direct connection.  The problem with the earlier flat plate patches is that they were field-applied to older tanks and are no guide to other features.

 

That Panzer Art turret works.  The kit turret is too early, no thick cheek.  But another point to note is that the kit only has the narrow early M34 gun mount.  The PA turret gives you the inner part of the mount but you will need to find a wide M34A1 outer shield. Like Panzer Art's GB35-143, which also gives you a metal gun barrel.  Unless you have one spare from another kit.

 

The only 2 PA stockists in the UK are Fields of Glory and Wildcat's, and neither have what you're looking for.  So that means going direct to Panzer Art in Czechya or you could try a European stockist like Der Sockelshop or Modellbau Koenig in Germany.  I would trust both of those, having used them many times.

 

Maybe someone on here has a spare Asuka or Dragon turret and gun mount that would work?

[rogerhunt]

12 hours ago, Kingsman said:

The late cast applique armour certainly means neither pistol port nor loader's hatch.  That type of applique was only factory-applied so there is a direct connection.  The problem with the earlier flat plate patches is that they were field-applied to older tanks and are no guide to other features.

 

That Panzer Art turret works.  The kit turret is too early, no thick cheek.  But another point to note is that the kit only has the narrow early M34 gun mount.  The PA turret gives you the inner part of the mount but you will need to find a wide M34A1 outer shield. Like Panzer Art's GB35-143, which also gives you a metal gun barrel.  Unless you have one spare from another kit.

 

The only 2 PA stockists in the UK are Fields of Glory and Wildcat's, and neither have what you're looking for.  So that means going direct to Panzer Art in Czechya or you could try a European stockist like Der Sockelshop or Modellbau Koenig in Germany.  I would trust both of those, having used them many times.

 

Maybe someone on here has a spare Asuka or Dragon turret and gun mount that would work?

I’m pretty sure I have a spare M34A1 mantlet, although if I manage to source a Panzer Art turret, I might as well go the whole hog and get the PA mantlet and barrel to go with it. I usually use Plastmodel in Poland but they’re out of stock of the turret, along with everyone else, so I might try going direct to PA. 

[rogerhunt]

@Kingsman I think you were right the first time, I’m pretty sure the lead tank is Azrael, and if it is, it seems to show a member of the crew in the loaders hatch. 

[Kingsman]

@rogerhunt Whatever tank that is, it definitely does have a loader's hatch.  You can see the open hatch cover.  As for the applique, the shape and shadows still say welded-on cast patches to me rather than cast-in bumps.  The name could well be Azrael: the 2nd character does look like a "z".

 

One of the issues with Shermans is transitions from feature to feature.  Usually the best that can be done is to identify the month of the change at each manufacturer.  Sometimes a specific or approximate vehicle number is known or can be derived within a narrower date range.  But that means that "transitional" configurations are bound to exist and it is interesting when they come to light.  You know the saying that Shermans are confusing, and if you think you understand them then you have probably misunderstood the situation........  And as I said, PSC had a reputation for being one of the most rapid implementers of changes.

 

So while the 3 options I listed earlier would be typical for the great majority of production in those periods, "in-betweeners" almost certainly existed.  And the tank in the most recent photo looks to me like one of those.  Stocks of new turrets (itself an interim configuration) are being used before stocks of the new hulls were available.  In today's more configuration-controlled and ISO-accredited manufacture environment that sort of variation probably wouldn't happen.

 

So I guess it's up to you whether you try to make cast applique patches or cast-in bumps.  The front view confirms my revised belief that it has the welded-on cast patches because of the shape going further over the curve of the hull and hard vertical edge shadow.  But I suppose that is a judgement call.  But maybe also skill and financial.  Buying both a replacement hull and turret will be expensive.  A new turret now seems to be necessary but an Asuka hull could be adapted.  In which respect the welded-on cast patches are probably easier than the cast-in bumps.  Blending the bumps in would be harder than making weld seams IMO, but the patches will be harder to shape to the hull.