Fiat 806: research and scratchbuilds

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , that´s the result of our different scales ! I´m really curious about Nick´s further investigations . If your Protar tyres are too big , your frame seems to be shorter as can be seen on your pictures . As you know I didn´t care about the exact scale . It was important for me there were very good alignements at the frontal part of the frame ( mounting points of engine , dampers and radiator case ) and an elongation of the frame at it´s rear part was the necessary consequence. And I´m happy with this decision,because my wheels and other kit´s parts like the steering wheel and so on fit in this system .I won´t have any problems with the bonnets and the exhaust pipes . The fact that the engine is in exact 1:12 scale is not that important for me  , because the difference can be hardly seen.

The whole kit is somewhat oversized and this gives me the opportunity to use a lot of - mostly altered -kit´s parts .

This was my intention from the beginning when entering the gangshow thread.

The struggle for representing an exact 1:12-modell was not invented by me and I never had the ambition for a reduction , knowing it will cause a lot of addidtional problems .

I want to build an impressive and detailled model which looks very similar with the original but without dents and flaws .

There will be a lot of challenges and so there´s no need for me to create more problems by reduction of the scale.

In this case a scratchbuild of the whole model would make more sense imho and if I had to do this I would do it in a bigger scale like 1:8 or 1:6

Many greetings !  Hannes

Edited February 25, 2017 by Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

With a 200 mm wheelbase, I get this: as you can see, the tail portion is too short, my fairing portion too, and my kit's bonnets too (75 mm):

 

 

 

 

 

So, as Hannes one, my build is a bit oversized! the good new is that, in such conditions, my wheels are OK (64,5/64,5). I think I am gonna work on this slightly altered scale, 1/113 instead of 1/12.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

10 minutes ago, Hannes said:

The fact that the engine is in exact 1:12 scale is not that important for me  , because the difference can be hardly seen.

Dear Hannes,

I think it's a good new if the engine is at 1/12, and the rest at a slightly bigger one. It should be easier then to set... 

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier ,that´s a wise decision !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I am like Mr Jourdain (Le bourgeois gentilhomme de Molière), I changed my scale without noticing it (up to now!) 

I precise that, in these new conditions, the total lenght for the car would be around 300 mm. I can't measure it very precisely because my Macbook is a 13", 28,6 cm wide, a bit too small to have the whole car in the screen...

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier regarding the wheels : Please don´t forget : The width between the wheel-pairs are very different compared with drawing 2 imho. Look at the photos 5 , 6 , 11 , 12 , 15 and 21 ! You will see the distance is very different compared with drawing 2 imho. If the two front-wheels stand too close together . it will look different compared with our photos ! And the rear-wheels are too close together on drawing 2 too imho !

Maybe some irritations in the past were the result of accepting the distances as shown on drawing 2 ! This information maybe  is also important for Nick !

Many greetings !  Hannes

[Totally Mad Olivier]

 

 

At 1/113 scale, I get these measures (mine between parentheses) after the first corrections on my build:

1- 15,8 mm (16 mm)  OK!

2- 11 mm (11 mm) OK!

3- 85 mm (88 mm) my tail is still a little big too long, but it is OK

4- 61 mm (57 mm) OK

5- 29,75 mm (32,5 mm) my fairing lenght, like my cockpit, is still a bit too long but OK

6- 80 mm (80 mm) kit's bonnets have the perfect lenght. We have here something right on the Protar/ Italeri kit!!  (at 1/113 scale...)

7- 12 mm (13 mm) OK

8- 120 mm (118 mm) OK!

9- 65 mm (64,5 mm) as I said in my previous pos, now the diameter of the wheels is excellent! My morale goes back up all at once!

10- 19,7 mm (18,4 mm) OK stop shrinking the shrimp! 

11- 9 mm (9,25 mm) OK!

12- 44 mm (42 mm) OK

13- 21,6 mm (22,3 mm) OK

14- 8,6 mm 

15- 83 mm (85 mm) OK!

16- 48 mm (44,5 mm) OK

 

This does not mean that all is perfect, the main problem for me is now to modify the height of the body in the area of the seat fairing. Except that, and little corrections, it is OK for me. I thank again Roy for this exceptional document.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Hannes]

Without measurements I´m content with my model´s shape too . I made a lot of alterings in the last days and  now I know they were right . I still have to shorten the tail´s end a bit and give the top-line of the rear a a bit more inclination. But I will wait till I printed out this photo in my scale. There´s light on the horizon ! My own bonnets still need to get elongated a bit and the radiator case needs some minimal alterings. If these works are done , I can finally start to fix the body to the frame by a removable construction. Bonnets and exhaust pipes will follow .Many greetings !  Hannes

[NickD]

Not sure I understood all the logic not having the kit but it sounds like progress.

 

for me the consequences of @Roy vd M.'s excellent addition is confusion where once I had certainty. Hey Ho. The differences are probably small but enough to be inconvenient.

Happy Hunting chaps

Nick

[Totally Mad Olivier]

Here are the modif I should do on my bodycare to be nearly 100% right:

1- still a little decrease of the height in that area (ever decreased today)

2- on another hand, the body should be increased in height in that area

3- little decrease in height and raise of the angle between tip and body

4- my seat fairing goes too backward. I have decreased its height on the up portion , now it's OK.

5- Gap here. I should increase the height of the shape in the rear part of the cockpit left side 

6- little adding on the front part of the cockpit shape right side 

7- my fairing shouldn't go so low.

8- little adding here to get the perfect profile of the fairing

9- I should cut 2 mm of body here: even at 1/113 scale, this portion is a bit too long.

10 and 11- My body is still a bit too height, and should be decreased of at least 1 mm.

 

Finally, Roy, I don't thank you! 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph
add

[Hannes]

Dear Nick , as I mentioned above the distance between the wheel pairs may have caused some irritations too ( besides their sizes ) They are much more apart imho than on drawing 2 !

Many greetings !  Hannes

[NickD]

Hannes,

 

'Fraid I don't understand your comment. though that does not mean I think you are wrong.

 

Up to now I have followed the logic Roy helped establish at the beginning. We know few things for certain. The wheel base was 2.4m and the track 1.3m. Everything else has to be inferred. Generally, in my analysis, Drawing 2 has withstood scrutiny well. The only real problems were those noted ages ago.

 

Wheels are have been the main problem. Mostly because they are so variable.

 

Regards

nick

[Hannes]

Dear Olivier , that´s funny : my tail´s end seems to be a little bit shorter as yours ! Of course this is only a comparison by holding to the TV-screen ,but after our discussions this is a good joke .

I think , we are both on the right way regarding the bodywork !  Hannes

[Hannes]

Dear Nick, maybe I was too hasty with my analysis .I´ll make some comparison photos when my main construction will be done . Many greetings !  Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

Regarding the analysis of Photo 28... just to give an idea of what one is dealing with:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All three photos were taken perpendicular to the car. Distance is moderately large.

 

Note the change of view of the car's tail. Is it short [first photo] or is it long [last photo]?.

 

Also note the position of the largest hole in the sidewall of the car's interior, compared with the steering wheel. Do the hole and the steering wheel have the same distance from the front of the car [first photo]? Or is the hole way further toward the end [last photo]? 

 

This problem is exactly the reason why I took so many photos and videos of the Delage. For example this series:

 

   

 

     

 

     

 

All this energy shows how important carefulness in using only one photo is, in my view. As was said before, always use other sources in conjunction with the one you're working on, insofar possible. With the Fiat that is for example the other three studio photos. 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Roy vd M.

[Roy vd M.]

Perhaps the first three photos can even be used in interpreting Photo 28. 

 

If Photo 28 was taken approximately from the same POV as the second photo above (that photo only being taken from higher above the ground), this would be the comparison:

 

 

 

 

... and then look at the photo taken (perpendicularly) pointing the camera at the end line of the car (really... although it doesn't seem that way because of the way I cropped the image... but trust me, on the hereunder photo I focused the lens on the vertical tail line of the car).

 

Compare the difference between tails in both photos, and you'll have an idea (not more!) of how much larger the Fiat tail could be, compared to what Photo 28 suggests. It may be a difference as great as 10 centimeters on the real car.

 

 

[Hannes]

I agree with you , dear Roy ! And it´s a good sign I did not discover some fundamental differences regarding the shape of my model.The most important issues are a direct view at the topline of the rear part of the bodywork ,the tube construction of the oil tank ,a good view at the cam fairing and at the construction of the struts under the engine.Regarding the tail´s end this photo cannot give the final answer! Photo 8 for instance is much better suited for this Bordino-tip problem imho.

However , this was a very  great contribution , many thanks again !  Hannes

[Roy vd M.]

By the way, just to stir the emotions of those who are really into the history of this Fiat and the only Grand Prix it took part in. 

 

On the third photo above you can see the remains of the Delage, driven by Robert Benoist, also being the same car that Benoist won all Grand Prix races in 1927 in (including the Grand Prix of Italy).

 

It is that specific car that was once in close proximity to the Fiat 806, on the 4th of September 1927.... 

 

 

This specific car can be seen in the documentary, for example from 0:35 to 1:00. 

 

At one point in its history the car crashed into a tree, leaving it a wreck. All used parts seen above, restored and collected during the years, are original.

 

There are plans to restore this legendary car to its former glory. If only Fiat had similar plans regarding its own intellectual heritage... 

[Totally Mad Olivier]

11 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

All this energy shows how important carefulness in using only one photo is, in my view. As was said before, always use other sources in conjunction with the one you're working on, insofar possible. With the Fiat that is for example the other three studio photos. 

Edited 5 hours ago by Roy vd M.

Very good and impressive demonstration, Roy! that's why I made my comparison photos trying to be not too close from my model. The last photo (with yellow lines) was made at a distance of 85 cm, which corresponds to 9,60 m at 1:1 scale. It is I think approximately the distance from which the photo 28 was taken. But there is indeed an error margin, especially for the sides. 

I fully agree - and that is the most difficult - that you can't hope working on a single document. The more we have, the closest we can hope we will be at the end. This build will have learned me a lot, about optical illusion and fast conclusions. Thanks for your contribution and your excellent photos of the Delage!

Edited February 26, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

8 hours ago, Hannes said:

 

Dear Olivier regarding the wheels : Please don´t forget : The width between the wheel-pairs are very different compared with drawing 2 imho. Look at the photos 5 , 6 , 11 , 12 , 15 and 21 ! You will see the distance is very different compared with drawing 2 imho. If the two front-wheels stand too close together . it will look different compared with our photos ! And the rear-wheels are too close together on drawing 2 too imho !

 

I agree with you about that, Hannes. But if you work at 1/1125 scale, you must consider Drawing 2 at the same scale:

 

The problem of changing the scale is that you must reconsider everything. I am not sure Drawing 2 is wrong proportionnaly, the question is the scale you consider. The same distance on the rear axis of my model is only 93 mm!! I will have to modify again this lenght (I had first increased it a lot, see much above, and then reduced it) if I want my car to look as the real one. 

The photo 28 has leaded me (the best compromise, imho) to reconsider the scale, but this has many consequences... In this case, you should enlarge the body too etc. If we don't want to turn definitely mad, we must set limits, compromises, and do our best with that, trying to avoid big mistakes (like a much too short distance between the wheels, indeed).

Edited February 26, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[Totally Mad Olivier]

I have begun my modif made necessary after Roy's discover. The comparison I made above confirmed what ever seemed to be a reality: this area is too low. Hannes was right on that point. So, I had to "shrink the shrimp" again... I also decreased in lenght my fairing portion, a bit too long, about 1,5 mm.

 

 

Edited February 26, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[NickD]

Chaps,

 

Back on page 1!, Roy provided the following picture

He used it to prove the front and rear tracks were the same because track is measured at the ground.

[Totally Mad Olivier]

12 hours ago, Olivier de St Raph said:

Here are the modif I should do on my bodycare to be nearly 100% right:

1- still a little decrease of the height in that area (ever decreased today)

2- on another hand, the body should be increased in height in that area

3- little decrease in height and raise of the angle between tip and body

4- my seat fairing goes too backward. I have decreased its height on the up portion , now it's OK.

5- Gap here. I should increase the height of the shape in the rear part of the cockpit left side 

6- little adding on the front part of the cockpit shape right side 

7- my fairing shouldn't go so low.

8- little adding here to get the perfect profile of the fairing

9- I should cut 2 mm of body here: even at 1/113 scale, this portion is a bit too long.

10 and 11- My body is still a bit too height, and should be decreased of at least 1 mm.

 

Finally, Roy, I don't thank you! 

 

 

I quoted myself so that the reader may see easily the corrections ever done and the one not yet done:

 

1- done

2- To do, area removed (see my previous post)

3- To complete, begun

4-  not yet done

5- To do

6- not yet done

7- done

8- not yet done, not sure I will do it

9- done

10 and 11- done. I have to work a bit to avoid the gap where the frame turns

Edited February 26, 2017 by Olivier de St Raph

[sharknose156]

Roy truly great pictures and analysis.

Do you have more pictures of the 1927 car ? 

Amazing how small the 806 must have been

[Totally Mad Olivier]

9 hours ago, Roy vd M. said:

As was said before, always use other sources in conjunction with the one you're working on, insofar possible. With the Fiat that is for example the other three studio photos. 

Roy, 

as I said above, I fully agree - who wouldn't - about that. Because working on the computer doesn't allow to see the different documents simultaneously, I have decided to make the impression in HQ of my favourite docs: 1A, 2, 3 lightened a bit, 4 lightened a bit, 7A lightened a bit, 9 lightened, 12, 17, 19 (for the windscreen), 20, 23, 25 and of course 28 (darkened), that bears the number 0 in my personal "collection". Contrary to Hannes, I don't like very much the photo 8.