Coastal Command Wimpy XIII help please

[shunter]

First post here, from someone who hasn't built a wingy thing since a GW1 Tornado for my son about 1991 (but who built every Airfix release between 1958 and 1970, when tanks, trains, and girls gained the upper hand)

I want to build a Wellington GR mk XIII of 221Sqn for my father, who flew in them as a wireless operator/rear gunner, specifically from Luqa, Malta, in 1944.

I have the Trumpeter mk X, and very limited reference material! Would I be correct in thinking that externally, the mk XIII was the largely the same as the mk X, with the addition of the ASV radar? If not, what else do I need to do?

I have searched this forum for 'wellington' and picked up some useful info, especially regarding the interior colouring, but am unsure about the exterior. I have the article on building the GR mk VIII from Model Airplane International, and will go for the dark slate grey/dark sea grey/white scheme as used there, unless the Old Man remembers it was otherwise - see the old thread on 'Coastal Command colour questions').

Hoping to get this finished by Christmas, any information most gratefully received.

[Seahawk]

First post here, from someone who hasn't built a wingy thing since a GW1 Tornado for my son about 1991 (but who built every Airfix release between 1958 and 1970, when tanks, trains, and girls gained the upper hand)

I want to build a Wellington GR mk XIII of 221Sqn for my father, who flew in them as a wireless operator/rear gunner, specifically from Luqa, Malta, in 1944.

I have the Trumpeter mk X, and very limited reference material! Would I be correct in thinking that externally, the mk XIII was the largely the same as the mk X, with the addition of the ASV radar? If not, what else do I need to do?

I have searched this forum for 'wellington' and picked up some useful info, especially regarding the interior colouring, but am unsure about the exterior. I have the article on building the GR mk VIII from Model Airplane International, and will go for the dark slate grey/dark sea grey/white scheme as used there, unless the Old Man remembers it was otherwise - see the old thread on 'Coastal Command colour questions').

Hoping to get this finished by Christmas, any information most gratefully received.

Shunter

There is an article on 221 Sq Wellington ops on pages 82-9 of the Dec 2007 Flypast. Think it's aircrew reminiscences (does the author's name Berrett mean anything to your father?). Haven't looked it out yet but it apparently contains a picture of Wellington XIII JL416 "L".

Watch this space!

Nick

[Seahawk]

First post here, from someone who hasn't built a wingy thing since a GW1 Tornado for my son about 1991 (but who built every Airfix release between 1958 and 1970, when tanks, trains, and girls gained the upper hand)

I want to build a Wellington GR mk XIII of 221Sqn for my father, who flew in them as a wireless operator/rear gunner, specifically from Luqa, Malta, in 1944.

I have the Trumpeter mk X, and very limited reference material! Would I be correct in thinking that externally, the mk XIII was the largely the same as the mk X, with the addition of the ASV radar? If not, what else do I need to do?

I have searched this forum for 'wellington' and picked up some useful info, especially regarding the interior colouring, but am unsure about the exterior. I have the article on building the GR mk VIII from Model Airplane International, and will go for the dark slate grey/dark sea grey/white scheme as used there, unless the Old Man remembers it was otherwise - see the old thread on 'Coastal Command colour questions').

Hoping to get this finished by Christmas, any information most gratefully received.

Right, the article in Flypast is only partly about 221 Sq. It's by Frank Berrett, who was an air gunner on the unit Oct 43 to Sep 44. There are photos of 2 Wellington XIIIs. Both have stickleback spine aerials, aerials on the fuselage side and wing aerials per John McIllmurray's GR.VIII article. Both are in the late predominantly white scheme with only topmost surfaces in Extra Dark Sea Grey (so all the engine cowlings are white as are the wing leading edges). Both have the long intakes on the cowling tops as per the Wellington X.

JA 416 over Malta, Jan 1944: no guns in turrets and gun slots in tail turret filled. Code "L" , prob in red, on RHS between flare chute and the forwardmost of the fuselage side aerials. Lower edge in line with bottom row of aerials, top extends above top row by about 1/8" in 1/72: slightly tall and narrow look compared with usual code proportions. Serial (forward of tailplane with top edge roughly in line with leading edge of tailplane) prob black.

HZ939 at Luqa: lost Oct 1944. Turrets armed. Spinners on props (visible here, prob also present on JA 416). Code in same location as on JA416 but top 2/3 obscured: probably "O" or "U" but can't entirely rule out other options like "G".

Now for differences between Wellington X and XIII, based on these 2 photos plus pics in Alec Lumsden's "Wellington Special":

- neither JA416 (LHS) nor HZ939 (RHS) show any sign of the beam gun windows.

- However (and here's your main problem) JA416 shows that, like most (all?) aircraft built for the GR role, it had some of the fuselage side windows reinstated: there's a shortish length extending forward from above the flare chute and another extending back from behind the cockpit to (very approximately) mid span of the wing. This is a bit of a swine to cut out, esp if you're under time pressure. Although the Trumpeter Mk X kit is far superior, I intend to start from the otherwise horribly hard work Italeri Mk X because it comes with the aperture already cut out and both transparencies and a solid plug for you to cut up and use as you see fit. Or you could use the Italeri plugs as a templates for hacking holes in the Trumpeter kit. Or you could just depict them with transfers.

Sorry to bring bad news. Look forward to seeing your build if you go ahead. Afraid the GR.XIs/XII/XIII don't seem to be that well documented.

Regards,

Nick

[shunter]

Right, the article in Flypast is only partly about 221 Sq. It's by Frank Berrett, who was an air gunner on the unit Oct 43 to Sep 44. There are photos of 2 Wellington XIIIs. Both have stickleback spine aerials, aerials on the fuselage side and wing aerials per John McIllmurray's GR.VIII article. Both are in the late predominantly white scheme with only topmost surfaces in Extra Dark Sea Grey (so all the engine cowlings are white as are the wing leading edges). Both have the long intakes on the cowling tops as per the Wellington X.

JA 416 over Malta, Jan 1944: no guns in turrets and gun slots in tail turret filled. Code "L" , prob in red, on RHS between flare chute and the forwardmost of the fuselage side aerials. Lower edge in line with bottom row of aerials, top extends above top row by about 1/8" in 1/72: slightly tall and narrow look compared with usual code proportions. Serial (forward of tailplane with top edge roughly in line with leading edge of tailplane) prob black.

HZ939 at Luqa: lost Oct 1944. Turrets armed. Spinners on props (visible here, prob also present on JA 416). Code in same location as on JA416 but top 2/3 obscured: probably "O" or "U" but can't entirely rule out other options like "G".

Now for differences between Wellington X and XIII, based on these 2 photos plus pics in Alec Lumsden's "Wellington Special":

- neither JA416 (LHS) nor HZ939 (RHS) show any sign of the beam gun windows.

- However (and here's your main problem) JA416 shows that, like most (all?) aircraft built for the GR role, it had some of the fuselage side windows reinstated: there's a shortish length extending forward from above the flare chute and another extending back from behind the cockpit to (very approximately) mid span of the wing. This is a bit of a swine to cut out, esp if you're under time pressure. Although the Trumpeter Mk X kit is far superior, I intend to start from the otherwise horribly hard work Italeri Mk X because it comes with the aperture already cut out and both transparencies and a solid plug for you to cut up and use as you see fit. Or you could use the Italeri plugs as a templates for hacking holes in the Trumpeter kit. Or you could just depict them with transfers.

Sorry to bring bad news. Look forward to seeing your build if you go ahead. Afraid the GR.XIs/XII/XIII don't seem to be that well documented.

Regards,

Nick

[shunter]

Hi Nick,

Many thanks for your response. I will ask my dad if he remembers Frank Berrett.

There does not seem to be a single photo of a GR mk XIII on the internet! My only decent reference is Chaz Bowyer's 'Wellington at War'. This also has a photo of JA 416, taken from the right rear of the aircraft, slightly lower altitude. No armament, no beam gunner window, and apparently no spinners.The short section of window above the trailing edge looks to have been obscured, can't see the forward section.

I have come across two images puporting to be a mkXIII. The one on rafweb.org shows the short side window overpainted as above, and the normal inverted triangular beam gunner window. The other, from an unidentified publication, shows what look like the full length side windows, and the beam gunner window in a lozenge shape.

Maybe there is some latitude here. The images of the GR mkXIV in 'W at W' and on the internet show a variety of window configurations, perhaps the XIII was the same.

I have some aircraft serials from my dad's logbook. I don't suppose there is any quick way of linking them individual codes? If not, I will go for G- George, as that's his name!

regards

Rob

Edited December 7, 2009 by shunter

[miduppergunner]

I have a Profile Magazine with an artilce on "Special Duty" Wellingtons which has a bit on Coastal Command aircraft - the 4+ publication and also the Warpaint series. PM me if you do no have these and I will have a more detailed examination of just what is there.

[Seahawk]

There does not seem to be a single photo of a GR mk XIII on the internet! My only decent reference is Chaz Bowyer's 'Wellington at War'. This also has a photo of JA 416, taken from the right rear of the aircraft, slightly lower altitude. No armament, no beam gunner window, and apparently no spinners.The short section of window above the trailing edge looks to have been obscured, can't see the forward section.

I have come across two images puporting to be a mkXIII. The one on rafweb.org shows the short side window overpainted as above, and the normal inverted triangular beam gunner window. The other, from an unidentified publication, shows what look like the full length side windows, and the beam gunner window in a lozenge shape.

Maybe there is some latitude here. The images of the GR mkXIV in 'W at W' and on the internet show a variety of window configurations, perhaps the XIII was the same.

I have some aircraft serials from my dad's logbook. I don't suppose there is any quick way of linking them individual codes? If not, I will go for G- George, as that's his name!

regards

Rob

Personally I don't trust "images", whether in magazine artwork or the web: especially on such an ill-documented variant, there's often too much of either the artist seeing what he expects to see or making up the bits he can't.

Sounds like you are describing the same picture as I have (though there's also a partial shot of JA416 later in the article). Agree that either the light is catching the side windows at a funny angle or they are obscured in some way. Couldn't myself make out whether or not spinners were present. Haven't myself seen any pics of Wellington GR.XI/XII/XXIII without the 2 sets of overwing windows but agree there seems to be variety on the beam windows. HZ361 (XI) had no window at all to starboard, but an hexagonal/lozenge-shaped beam window to port (normal beam window with the two top corners cut off to provide space for aerial mounts). MP684 (XII) has normal beam window (and gun) to starboard while MP771 (XIII) has the hexagonal beam window (no idea about starboard side in either case). JA144 (XII): no beam window to starboard. I'm drifting, in the lack of evidence to the contrary, towards the conclusion that GR.XI/XII/XIIIs didn't have beam windows on the starboard side, regardless of what there was to port.

As regards serial/code correlations, JDR Rawlings' "Coastal, Support and Special Squadrons of the RAF" lists the following Wellington XIIIs with 221 Sq between Sep 43 and Aug 45:

HZ593, Q; HZ604; HZ707, D; HZ780; HZ865, J; HZ974, E; JA145, Z; JA179, P; JA206, Z; JA272, W; JA318, A; JA412, S, later P; JA568, N; ME895, H; MF263, F; MF356, B; NF465, G; NF592, U.

HTH.

Nick

[Heraldcoupe]

There does not seem to be a single photo of a GR mk XIII on the internet!

I managed to find this one, which is linked from this page. There are a handful of pictures in Wellington: The Geodetic Giant by Martin Bowman, but only one giving a decent side view. JA144 seems to have an identical window configuration to that pictured in the link above, though the forward fuselage windows can't be seen because of the wing. The positioning of the ASV aerials would intrude if the full trapezoidal window of the Mk.X had been retained.

Cheers,

Bill.

[Seahawk]

I managed to find this one, which is linked from this page. There are a handful of pictures in Wellington: The Geodetic Giant by Martin Bowman, but only one giving a decent side view. JA144 seems to have an identical window configuration to that pictured in the link above, though the forward fuselage windows can't be seen because of the wing. The positioning of the ASV aerials would intrude if the full trapezoidal window of the Mk.X had been retained.

Cheers,

Bill.

Note the additional antenna clearly visible below the nose turret in this picture. Although it is also visible in a silhouetted view of an unknown 221 Sq aircraft in the Flypast article, I couldn't clearly make it out in pics of either JA416 or HZ939 - but it may have been present on either or both.

Nick

[Seahawk]

I have a Profile Magazine with an artilce on "Special Duty" Wellingtons which has a bit on Coastal Command aircraft - the 4+ publication and also the Warpaint series. PM me if you do no have these and I will have a more detailed examination of just what is there.

Have already looked at the Warpaint, 4+ and also Crowood and Squadron Signal Wellington books: none added much to the story that I could see. As someone else said in an earlier discussion, the 4+ book is excellent but is absolutely silent about marks after the X/T.10, possibly owing to lack of info.

Nick

[Heraldcoupe]

Although the Trumpeter Mk X kit is far superior, I intend to start from the otherwise horribly hard work Italeri Mk X because it comes with the aperture already cut out and both transparencies and a solid plug for you to cut up and use as you see fit.

Cutting the windows out will be a lot less work than trying to correct all the the shape problems of the MPM/Italeri kit.

Cheers,

Bill.

[shunter]

Gents, many thanks for the help so far.

Hmmm, given the time left, and my lack of aircraft modelling experience, I think I might forego cutting holes in the fuselage. However, I will ask my dad about the window arrangements and post if there is anything different to what has ben discussed.

Seahawk, thanks for the info on aircraft codes. I did find one of the listed serials in his log book, in July 1944, by which time I think the squadron was in Italy. I would include a scan of the extract, if I could work out how to paste the image here!

regards

Rob

[rossm]

There is a photo on the IWM site Here and here and here and a colour picture here which is captioned as a XII but I think could be a XIII,

Ross

[shunter]

Thanks Ross.

Interestingly, none of these photos show any sign of either the side or beam gunner windows - which makes for a much easier conversion!

[Seahawk]

Thanks Ross.

Interestingly, none of these photos show any sign of either the side or beam gunner windows - which makes for a much easier conversion!

The first and last pictures show the 2 sides of the same aircraft, taken within 2 days of each other, which is a bit of a luxury. There's a lighter version of the first picture in Lumsden's "Wellington Special". Several points of interest:

- 1. Note the undernose radar aerial, like those seen on post-war Lancaster GR.3s.

- 2. no fuselage roundel

- 3. a small trapazoid shape on the starboard fuselage side about where the beam window would normally be (looks a bit like the upper half only of a beam window with the corners cut off for the ASV mounts but that would not correspond to any frame lines on a Wellington beam window). NB the starboard side is usually the side with no beam window at all on GR. XI/XII/XIII variants. I don't entirely rule out the possibility that the shape is part of the fuselage roundel, the rest having been effaced for some reason.

- 4. (and you'll see this much more clearly in the Lumsden book) there's a black triangle at the bottom of the fuselage below the "window". Doesn't affect the profile of the fuselage bottom. I'm wondering whether this might be some custom-made hatch for dropping supplies from, given that the aircraft was engaged in resupplying villages.

- 5. above the flare chute there is another apparent aperture on the "top corner" of the fuselage. The colour IWM picture shows a similar aperture on the other side. Lumsden draws attention to this as follows: "note the upper beam position above the flare chute". I have never heard of Wellingtons having such a position and early 1945 seems an odd time to decide they were necessary. Can anyone shed more like on this?

As regards the other 2 pictures, even a miserable g*t like me is forced to concede that these certainly look like GR.XIIIs with no fuselage or beam windows, which makes Shunter's life easier. Now that I look more closely, HZ939 of 221 Sq doesn't appear to either (picture in Flypast article). And we even have a code/serial tie-in: MF263 "F". Note in the second picture the mixture of aircraft with and without spinners in the same line-up.

Hope somebody finds this obscure corner of RAF history as interesting as I do!

Nick

[shunter]

I have just received a print of the IWM colour shot of JA412(TR 2805), which of course allows much better enlargement than the thumbnails on the database. Points of interest:-

1. red aircraft code(!), black serial

2. hexagonal beam window overpainted

3. rectangular side window over trailing edge overpainted

4. further small diamond shaped window/hatch higher up on the fuselage. (The Trumpeter moulding in fact shows this, on the port side but not the starboard)

5. No spinner

My Dad's log book shows he flew in this aircraft on an A/S sweep on 23/3/44, from Luqa.

Nick, regarding the hatch lowdown on the fuselage, IWM print CNA3534 shows this quite clearly on aircraft MF263. Again, this features on the trumpeter moulding.

If anybody wants a copy of the colour shot, let me know.

cheers

Rob