Jazzy Jase Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Hi, Just wanted to check with you that it is OK to build my Mossie as an aircraft that flew during the D-Day period, but never carried invasion stripes. The aircraft in question is NS850 TH-M of 418 sqn. I've been doing a lot of research on this one. There's a thread on here and another on Mossie.org. I have the aircraft movement card for the aircraft so I know it was with 418 sqn from February 1944. It crashed November 1944. All references I can find of the aircraft show no invasion stripes. Please let me know. Thanks, Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratch Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 All references I can find of the aircraft show no invasion stripes. When were those pictures taken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyverns4 Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 Hi Jason, 2 questions: When were the photos you are reffering to taken? Where was 418 Sqn based and what was their role and theatre? The order to apply the stripes stated (IIRC) that all airframes invilved had to be done essentialy overnight, hence many photos taken on or shortly after 6th June show a very wide ranging quality of finish from masked and painted to slopped on with a broom. It is possible that this airframe missed out initially but very unlikely that the stripes were not applied at some point. This is where the date of the photographs comes into play! Aircraft not involved in Op Overlord were not supposed to carry striped. The order for their application was quite defined in respect to who had to have them and who not. If 418 was not involved or covered by the operations order to apply the stripes then it is unlikely that they would have been applied. HTH Christian the Married Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousDFB1 Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 If you have references to say that she thought in support of the landings and equally have evidence of no stripes then you can enter her. We have one build in already that no record of stripes can be found but she definitely flow in the Normandy campaign. If your evidence is sound then enter her by all means Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Jase Posted April 3, 2009 Author Share Posted April 3, 2009 Unfortunately I cannot provide photographic evidence of the aircraft ever not receiving invasion stripes. In fact I cannot find much photographic evidence other than nose shots of the aircraft at all. The aircraft was definately with 418 squadron over that period. The movement card is here. 418 sqn definately supported the D-Day raids. Evidenced below: forceaerienne.forces.gc.ca "418 Squadron has the distinction of being the first Allied squadron to support the D-Day landings in that they attacked the beach area at about 2330 hours on 5 June, 1944; almost 90 minutes before the Airborne forces." rcaf.com W/C Russell Bannock DSO, DFC and Bar: "Typical of one of these "Flower" operations was my own experience on 10 June 1944, just immediately after D-Day. The bombers were attacking railway yards just south of Pads, and I was assigned a known Luftwaffe night-fighter airfield called Bourges Avord" 418squadron.ca "From Holmsley South, the unit also supported the D-Day landings in an intruder role, performing more of the standard 'flower' operations." The book "Juno Beach" also mentions 418 sqns participation. Robert Kipp was the pilot of NS850 and is credited with a kill during the timeframe for the D-Day group build: 14 June 1944 - one He.111 - destroyed. The profile of the aircraft in Mosquito Fighter/Fighter-Bomber Units of World War 2 shows the aircraft in June 1944 without invasion stripes. The decals I have are the new Aviaology RCAF Mossie set reviewed here. They seem very well researched with a lot of documentation. No mention is made of stripes for NS850, but they are pictured on another of the units aircraft; HR147, TH-Z, flown by Russell Bannock. This aircraft did receive the stripes and although it is not my preference I will build this aircraft if NS850 is judged unsuitable for the group build due to the lack of stripes (and evidence!). I'm not sure I want to make the final decision. I am certain the aircraft flew during the time period and I am pretty sure it didn't receive the stripes, though I cannot prove either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousA667 Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 "418 Squadron has the distinction of being the first Allied squadron to support the D-Day landings in that they attacked the beach area at about 2330 hours on 5 June, 1944; almost 90 minutes before the Airborne forces." If NS850 took part in these ops I'd be amazed if it didn't carry invasion stripes. Anything not carrying stripes would be considered fair game by allied AAA - in fact quite a few aircrew would tell you even with the stripes they were fair game! peebeep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratch Posted April 3, 2009 Share Posted April 3, 2009 The aircraft in question is NS850 TH-M of 418 sqn. I've been doing a lot of research on this one. Do you have The Holmsley Story by Leslie R. White? There is a hand-drawn illustration of this a/c with stripes clearly shown under the fuselage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Jase Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 If NS850 took part in these ops I'd be amazed if it didn't carry invasion stripes. Anything not carrying stripes would be considered fair game by allied AAA - in fact quite a few aircrew would tell you even with the stripes they were fair game! Agreed. And if I could find photographic evidence either way then I would be a happy bunny! Do you have The Holmsley Story by Leslie R. White?There is a hand-drawn illustration of this a/c with stripes clearly shown under the fuselage I don't have that book, but I have now placed an order for a copy of it! Shame it's an illustration and not a photo, but perhaps the text will reveal some more information? I went to my local Library yesterday to see what I could find. Not a lot, other than one photo from the book: Mosquito - The Wooden Wonder by Edward Bishop. On page 128 there is a photo of a Mossie without invasion stripes. The caption reads: "FB.VI NT137 of 418 (City of Edmonton) Squadron (RCAF) at Hurn, 22nd July 1944". Both the serial and code are visible in the photo. I find this interesting for two reasons: 1. Googling NT137 reveals that NT137 was at one time coded TH-T. 2. Either this aircraft did not receive stripes or they were removed already by 22nd July. Seeing as the time frame of the Group build is June 1st 1944 to August 20th 1944 then it seems likely that the stripes were not applied during this entire period and, short of the Holmsey book revealing concrete evidence then I shall build the aircraft without the stripes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousA667 Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 Seeing as the time frame of the Group build is June 1st 1944 to August 20th 1944 then it seems likely that the stripes were not applied during this entire period and, short of the Holmsey book revealing concrete evidence then I shall build the aircraft without the stripes. FWIW I would argue a case that stripes or no-stripes is equally possible during this period. The Mosquito references I have indicate that one of the squadron's roles was that of intruder ops during this period and I would think that the last thing you need whilst stooging around an enemy airfied, even at night, is a set of stripes. So whilst stripes were de riguer for beach-head ops they may well have been quickly removed for ops outside the beach-head. A short time-frame would certainly account for lack of photo references - I've had a search for 418 Sqdn aircraft in stripes and can't find any. The Osprey book Mosquito Fighter/Fighter-Bomber Units of WWII has a brief reference to the squadron's activities for 5/6th and 6/7th June. peebeep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousDFB1 Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 Well I think we should allow this built without stripes as there does seem to be circumstantial evidence to support the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratch Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 The Holmsley Story is ISBN 0-9527581-0-5 IIRC all the illustrations were drawn by the author at the time. Most of the info on 418 Sqn relates to immediately prior to D-Day (they arrived on 8th April 1944) and their speciality was shooting down enemy a/c as they came to land. Records of 121 Wing at Holmsley become obscure at the end of May, although White seems certain that they remained operational from there until they went to France, even though 142 ground staff transferred to Hurn on 11th June. I also have 'They Flew From The Forest' although I can't lay my hands on it at the mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzy Jase Posted April 11, 2009 Author Share Posted April 11, 2009 I now have a copy of the Holmsey Story. Haven't had a chance to read through it yet, but I have found the Illustration of "TH-M". The illustration was drawn in 1995 and is unfortunately not the same aircraft that I'm intending to build. It has AI radar and you can just about make out the last part of the serial number. I believe the illustration is of Mosquito HR241. Commonly illustrated as "TH-M" of 418 squadron, but in fact never served with the unit. For further reading see this thread: Mosquito radar question. With the above in mind and Mish's approval, I will build NS850 - TH-M without stripes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyL Posted April 11, 2009 Share Posted April 11, 2009 Well, in my book, I'd say go for it Jase, with or without stripes. 418 have D Day and after operations, so you'll be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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