Hans Von Hahn's Stab 1./JG3 Bf109E-4 "Double Chevron/Green Tatzelwurm" - Werknummer??

[WLJayne]

Hi folks,

 

I'm currently working on a profile of this aircraft for our double Bf109E 1/144 kit launching later this year, as Mark Postlethwaite kindly gave us permission to use his fabulous oil painting as the box art. I've been looking around and so far, no luck finding the Werknummer. Has this ever been verified, are there any plausible suggestions if not? Thanks as usual for all your knowledge and help!

 

Will.

[dov]

Hallo

Check out the link on this forum, I made, dear modeller whenever you build a 109....there is the link to asisbiz.com which holds so many pics, I am sure you will find you need!

Happy modelling 

Edited July 11, 2023 by dov
Typing error

[SafetyDad]

This sounds like @G.R.Morrison or @MDriskill might be able to help?

 

Meanwhile, I'll see what I have

 

SD

[WLJayne]

39 minutes ago, dov said:

Hallo

Check out the link on this forum, I made, dear modeller whenever you build a 109....there is the link to asisbiz.com which holds so many pics, I am sure you will find you need!

Happy modelling 

 

Asisbiz has been so useful! I'll take a look again but I don't think there was a WkNr listed for this aircraft, though there are a few good photos.

[G.R.Morrison]

Hptm. Hans von Hahn inherited Bf 109E-4 WNr.1433 (Stammkennzeichen:  “DB+WJ“) from the previous Gruppenkommandeur, when Hptm. Günther Lützow was promoted Geschwaderkommodore 21.August 1940.

 

WNr.1433 ended its days with the I./Schl.G. 1 when it overturned 15.Feb. 1942 during landing at Dugino.

 

A selection of references:

Model Art #375 p.9, color plate

SAM May 1985, M. Payne p.367 dwg, photo

Frappe, La LW Attaque A L'Ouest p.45, photo

Fleuret, Luftwaffe Colors 1935-40 p.131, photo

Ries, Markierungen und Tarnanstriche der Luftwaffe im 2.Weltkrieg, Band 4, p.56, photo

Prien, Stemmer, Rodeike, Bock, Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945, Teil 4/I, pp181, 185, 192 photos

 

A note on the three ‘Ballonabschuße’ marked on the rudder:  These were probably barrage balloons towed by ships in the Channel, knocked-down to enable imminent Stuka attacks.  These can be found on Bf 109Es and Bf 110s in the summer of 1940

 

Hope this helps.

 

GRM

 

(Mr. Jayne, Postlethwaite's work is sublime.  I'd advise caution regarding the captioning of some of the photos on asisbiz.)

Edited July 11, 2023 by G.R.Morrison
Fix typo (because 'Lapsus calami Happens')

[nicholas mayhew]

2 hours ago, WLJayne said:

 

Asisbiz has been so useful! I'll take a look again but I don't think there was a WkNr listed for this aircraft, though there are a few good photos.

 

lots of cool pictures, but i wouldn't trust much of their labelling - you will need to verify that yourself if accuracy is the focus

[SafetyDad]

2 hours ago, G.R.Morrison said:

Hptm. Hans von Hahn inherited Bf 109E-4 WNr.1433 (Stammkennzeichen:  “DB+WJ“) from the previous Gruppenkommandeur, when Hptm. Günther Lützow was promoted Geschwaderkommodore 21.August 1940.

 

WNr.1433 ended its days with the I./Schl.G. 1 when it overturned 15.Feb. 1942 during landing at Dugino.

 

A selection of references:

Model Art #375 p.9, color plate

SAM May 1985, M. Payne p.367 dwg, photo

Frappe, La LW Attaque A L'Ouest p.45, photo

Fleuret, Luftwaffe Colors 1935-40 p.131, photo

Ries, Markierungen und Tarnanstriche der Luftwaffe im 2.Weltkrieg, Band 4, p.56, photo

Prien, Stemmer, Rodeike, Bock, Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945, Teil 4/I, pp181, 185, 192 photos

 

A note on the three ‘Ballonabschuße’ marked on the rudder:  These were probably barrage balloons towed by ships in the Channel, knocked-down to enable imminent Stuka attacks.  These can be found on Bf 109Es and Bf 110s in the summer of 1940

 

Hope this helps.

 

GRM

 

(Mr. Jayne, Postlethwaite's work is sublime.  I'd advise caution regarding the captioning of some of the photos on asisbiz.)

 

Very impressive post there GRM - excellent!

 

SD

[WLJayne]

2 hours ago, G.R.Morrison said:

Hptm. Hans von Hahn inherited Bf 109E-4 WNr.1433 (Stammkennzeichen:  “DB+WJ“) from the previous Gruppenkommandeur, when Hptm. Günther Lützow was promoted Geschwaderkommodore 21.August 1940.

 

WNr.1433 ended its days with the I./Schl.G. 1 when it overturned 15.Feb. 1942 during landing at Dugino.

 

A selection of references:

Model Art #375 p.9, color plate

SAM May 1985, M. Payne p.367 dwg, photo

Frappe, La LW Attaque A L'Ouest p.45, photo

Fleuret, Luftwaffe Colors 1935-40 p.131, photo

Ries, Markierungen und Tarnanstriche der Luftwaffe im 2.Weltkrieg, Band 4, p.56, photo

Prien, Stemmer, Rodeike, Bock, Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe 1934 bis 1945, Teil 4/I, pp181, 185, 192 photos

 

A note on the three ‘Ballonabschuße’ marked on the rudder:  These were probably barrage balloons towed by ships in the Channel, knocked-down to enable imminent Stuka attacks.  These can be found on Bf 109Es and Bf 110s in the summer of 1940

 

Hope this helps.

 

GRM

 

(Mr. Jayne, Postlethwaite's work is sublime.  I'd advise caution regarding the captioning of some of the photos on asisbiz.)

 

That's excellent information and some brilliant references to add to my library, thank you so much!! I agree, Mark's work is meticulously researched as well as being some of the best aviation art ever to exist in my opinion. He has been of a great help with this project directly, as has Paul Lucas. These may only be small models, but they can and should be as well researched as I can manage. Yes I agree about Asisbiz, an interesting starting point, but I always cross reference with the books and documents I have.

 

Many thanks once again!

 

 

[WLJayne]

I've got a draft of the profile here, I'd really appreciate any feedback you all might have on it. The mottling is something of a best guess and I haven't tried very hard to copy the exact mottle pattern as seen on the port side in photos (I still might attempt to,) based on photos of the aircraft when flown by Günther Lützow in June 1940. It seems reasonable to me to imagine the mottling remained intact, with the yellow areas added and Tatzelwurm repainted. I'm not 100% sure about the RLM 02, maybe I was a bit trigger happy with it, but it's so hard to tell from a black and white photo.

 

What do you chaps think?

 

 

[SafetyDad]

When I first saw your profile I agreed with your view that the mottling might be a little overdone.

However, when I scrolled down to the picture I think you have conveyed the overall appearance of the aircraft very well - it's not blotch for blotch as you say, but certainly represents the aircraft well.

Blotch for blotch? What I am I thinking? This is 1/144!

 

SD

[WLJayne]

2 hours ago, SafetyDad said:

When I first saw your profile I agreed with your view that the mottling might be a little overdone.

However, when I scrolled down to the picture I think you have conveyed the overall appearance of the aircraft very well - it's not blotch for blotch as you say, but certainly represents the aircraft well.

Blotch for blotch? What I am I thinking? This is 1/144!

 

SD

 

Thank you very much!! I went back this morning and tried to do as close to a "blotch for blotch" scheme as I could. I hope this one gets even closer to the right impression, which I suppose is the best we can hope for. Obviously the starboard side is a best guess as I haven't found any clear photos unlike the port side.

 

The cool thing about this is you can just leave a few markings off and it can be finished as Lützow's 109!

 

[WLJayne]

Thank you @G.R.Morrison for the email correspondence! If I add the Stadwappen for Frankfurt Am Main on the starboard side of the fuselage in place of the personal emblem, then I think we can call this profile complete.

 

EDIT: Apart from the paint division on the spinner, bugger!

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by WLJayne