122 sqn mustangs

[Arniec]

I am searching for information about the Mustangs that were flown by 122 sqn. Aspecialy around D-Day. I have found two profiles for a Mustang III. These are MT 0 A and MT o K. I am even more in the interest for the Mustangs flown by J.N. Thorne DFC.

He has flown in: FB103, FB110, FB180, FB221, FB224, FB227, FB349, FB372, FX889, FX935, FX938, FX982, FZ101, FZ177 and HB858.

I hope that somebody can help me.

Arnold

Edited July 29, 2010 by Arniec

[Arniec]

I have modefied my question.

It's very important, because J.N Thorne had crashed in the other half of a semi detateched House in Velp near Arnhem (the Netherlands) witch was owend by my grandparents.

I hope someone can help me now.

Arnold

[Edgar]

MT-K was FB226.

Edgar

[Terry McGrady]

I have modefied my question.

It's very important, because J.N Thorne had crashed in the other half of a semi detateched House in Velp near Arnhem (the Netherlands) witch was owend by my grandparents.

I hope someone can help me now.

Arnold

Hi Arnold .

All I can tell you was that MK*A was FZ114

Cheers

Terry McGrady

[Arniec]

Thanxs Terry and Edgar for the reply, but it's the other ones I am mostly interessed in.

I am in search for almost a year now for thes, so it isn't that simpel.

I have even been at the national archives in London.

But thanxs anyway.

Arnold

[Terry McGrady]

I have modefied my question.

It's very important, because J.N Thorne had crashed in the other half of a semi detateched House in Velp near Arnhem (the Netherlands) witch was owend by my grandparents.

I hope someone can help me now.

Arnold

Do you have a date for the incident ?

Terry McGrady

[Arniec]

The incident was at the 10th of september 1944.

Arnold

[Edgar]

I'm going to Kew, on Saturday; I'll try to see what they have, then.

Edgar

[Terry McGrady]

The incident was at the 10th of september 1944.

Arnold

Hi Arnie ,

The A/C flown by PO Thorne on this date was FB372. You may already know that P/O JN THorne was an American and is buried in Moscowa cemetary at Arnhem .

On 26th July 1944 the same Pilot crash landed in FB180 after action with FW190 of JG2

FB180 being written off .

Now all you need are the individual A/C Letters

Cheers

Terry McGrady

[Edgar]

Apart from confirming that the serial was FB372, and the date, the ORB is no help, at all; it does not list any individual code letters, at all. sorry.

Edgar

[Arniec]

Thanxs Edgar for trying.

I was afraid that this was happening. It's very difficult to get any info on the airpanes of the 122 squadron exept the two who were photografed.

Maybee there are more pictures of 122 sqn mustangs, but I havent seen them. So if somebody have some pictures pleas let me now.

Arnold

[Brian J]

Hello Arnold

I don't know if I can be of any help...but to add my two cents worth. During a doctors appointment back in 1994 I found out that my doctor flew Mustangs during the big one. He told me to check my books and I would find his aircraft. I did only to find out that he flew MT*K FB226! His name is Ed Roemmele and he lives in Windsor, Ontario (although he is retired I believe he is still in good health). I built a 1/48 Mustang for him after he gave me three unpublished photo copies of this aircraft. Contrary to the 5-view drawing on page 45 of the Camouflage and Markings: RAF Fighter Command, 1936-1945 book these photos verify there were no under wing D-Day stripes at the time that often reproduced photo and the spinner is too light for black and too dark for yellow. I chose red for the spinner as did the artist profile on page 55 of the recently published Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 93 'Mustang and Thunderbolt Aces.' Apparently those photos were taken in November of 1944. It continues to amaze me how more and more photos are made available to the public and the years go by. Good luck in your search.

Brian

[Arniec]

Thanx Brian.

I have seen the name of Ed Roemmele a few times in some books. I have been researching P/O J.N. Thorne DFC for some 16 months After a story from my mom. I even have a book about Thorne. It was publiced by his Familie as a private venture. There is even a part of his log book publiced in there. But the missing pies for my research is the individual A/C letter (or Letters) from the aircraft FB103, FB110, FB180, FB221, FB224, FB227, FB349, FB372, FX889, FX935, FX938, FX982, FZ101, FZ177 and HB858.

I even want to go and have a look in the German Archives to find this out, but that is not as simple as in Engeland.

I hope to find the missing pieses very soon, so I can Build my Mustangs.

Arnold

[Arniec]

Brian,

I have just been reading the Squadron operation book (witch I copied at the national archives in London) and I found out that Thorne and Roemmele flew mostly the same aircraft in June/July of 1944. Roemmele flew mostly FB110 at that time on a sortie and on the same day Thorne as well. If FB110 was not available (damage/ maintenance) they flew FB180. This was after the crashlanding from Thorne in FB180 at the end of July over ( in the same action he shot down two 190's). I have the aircraft of the aces volume as wel. I found a foult in the book. In the aces appendix they state that Thorne had 2 aircraft destroyed but this hase to be 3 aircraft.

Arnold

[Brian J]

Arnold,

I am in the process of trying to contact Dr. E.A. Roemmele and will let you know what I find out. In the meantime I will make you aware of several observations I have made in the last day or so.

On page 95 of 'Second Tactical Air Force, Vol. One by C. Shores & C. Thomas there is a photo of four members of 122 Squadron, including E. A. Roemmele under the nose of a squadron Mustang taken on or near the date of their 23 April encounter with He 111's. It shows a white (?) ID band behind the spinner which is a dark colour. On pages 108 and 109 of the same volume is a b&w photo and colour profile of Mustangs from 65 Squadron (19, 65 and 122 Squadrons formed 122 Wing out of Funtington on June 6, 1944). These two photos suggest the same markings as the previously mentioned 122 Squadron markings. The artist profile interprets the nose colours as a white band with a red spinner. Both units appear to carry squadron badges under the exhausts.

At the top of page 255 of 'Fighter Squadrons of the R.A.F. and Their Aircraft' by John Rawlings is a b&w photo of W/O Castleton's Mustang III from 122 Squadron in August of 1944. There is no white ID nose band and the spinner is a dark colour. It seems lighter (?) than the black invasion stripes under the wing and there is no unit badge under the exhaust.

There seems to be a great deal of uncertainty, as expressed by the highly regarded authors C. Shores and C. Thomas as to the spinner colours/nose markings of the Mustangs of 122 Wing. I quote from Vol. 4, page 663 of their highly regarded tome: "...in 122 Wing the White seems to have been replace by dark colours as early as April. 65 Squadron's aircraft are thought to have had red spinners but no information on the other units (19 and 122 Squadrons) has come to light. However by the time the Wing was based in France, the few photographs that are available, indicate that all three units has Night spinners."

On that note there is a colour profile of MT*A FZ114 under a well known b&w photo of the same aircraft on page 663 showing full invasion stripes and a YELLOW spinner! It appears that the nose markings for 122 Squadron changed considerably during the time frame in question (April/Auguest 1944).

Was it more fun to build models when you were a kid and used the box art for reference and the house paint in the garage...my warm and fuzzy memories of earlier years suggests those were some of my best build ups! Keep in touch.

Brian

[Arniec]

Thanxs Brian.

I hope this will solve my problem.

I have two Mustangs in my stash, so I will be trying to make one for Thorne and one for Roemmele.

The coloured bands on the nose were recognition bands (just like the americans). At the time of D-day they got rid of them, because they hade the D-day striping. The band at the rudder was also gone at that time. But with fresh paint it wil distinctive from the rest.

Vroeger (Dutch word for The past), It was much more simple. Just like you said.

I started even with some Matchbox kits and they were very colourful so I didn't even used paint in the beginning.

You builded it in one day and than you hade a lovely plane with two or three colours.

Arnold

[Stein Meum]

I have the following serial-code letter tie-up's:

From K. Nyerrod's log book Feb-May-44:

FZ154-L

FZ168-U

FX979-J

FZ177-Y

FX971-Z

FB226-K

FB110-D

FB122-W

FZ118-X

From A. Austeen's log book Feb-45:

FB187-R

FZ177-Y

FB239-J

Stein M.

[Arniec]

Thanxs stein,

This is something I was looking for. With a quick search I have found two aircraft that they flew together.

Again thanxs

Arnold

[Antoine]

Ed Roemmele is pictured on page 95, vol. 1 of Shores/Thomas work on 2nd ATAF.

With three other pilots, after a Ranger on Dôle-Tavaux airfield, where they slaughtered some He-111.

They are under one of their mustangs nose.

Serial and code unkown, but there is a little star under the exhaust, with a Leopard inside.

[Brian J]

Hello Arnold,

My apologies for my tardy response but I just got my computer back from the computer hospital (it had a bad virus or two) and I spent an hour or so trying to organize my notes from my visit yesterday with Dr. Roemmele. I was able to spend two hours with the good doctor and I can only wish you could have been with me at his kitchen table as we went over his log book! He is enjoying good health and I was overwhelmed by his enthusiasm to share his experiences and his near photographic memory. Our exchange was often disjointed as we bounced around from his flight training to the end of the war...so many stories, so little time. We are planning to meet again next week and I have gone out and bought a voice recorder and hope to get something more permanent and better organized.

I read Stein Meum's posting with great interest and will now add some information that may be of help (or not!). First off, according to Dr. R. 122 Squadron was divided into A flight and B flight. A flight was assigned lower letters of the alphabet while B flight had higher letters. Letters had nothing to do with rank and pilots often flew different aircraft. Dr. R.'s log book often records the aircraft flown both by unit letter OR serial number, sometimes both...no consistency!

I found it interesting that in the Osprey book on Mustang and Thunderbolt Aces of the RAF that the artist has shown the two aircraft from 122 Squadron with different coloured spinners...red for MT*K and yellow for MT*A (I don't have the books with me as I lent them to Dr. R.). Could it be that the different colours indicated different flights? When I reminded Dr. R. that I had painted the model I built for him in 1994 with a red spinner he said that was wrong. He only had a 5-view drawing of 'his' aircraft (FB226) for reference which showed the spinner as black. Upon further discussion he felt that I may have been correct...he couldn't remember exactly. I recall a meeting with Gabby Gabreski years ago when he pointed out that, "you modelers know more about our aircraft then we do." I guess they were fighting a war and had more important things on their mind!

Getting back to some of your original questions. Dr. Roemmele does not remember a pilot called J. N. Thorne and has nothing in his log book referring to that name. It would be interesting to hear your comments on that as you say you have some kind of biographical material on Thorne. You are correct that Dr. R. often flew FB110. According to (and contrary to the listing provided by Stein Meum) FB110 was "K" in Dr. R.'s log book. Apparently he was flying it on the 26th of July. His log records that, "Sendall shot up on July 26 in FB110 "K". Apparently this pilot was hit by flak but returned to base. A new aircraft appears in Dr. R.'s log for the date July 28 which states, "air test new kite FB226" which of course became (apparently) the new "K."

Dr. R. also often flew in "T" but does not have a serial noted. I am going to ask Dr. R. if I can photo copy 6 or 7 pages of his log book so I can go over in detail and maybe correct any errors in interpretation. In closing I want to add a comment that I found amusing. After his first flight in a Mustang III (only recorded as FZ175) on Feb 1st his only log comment was, "It has a heater." He commented on how impressed he was with the creature comforts of a Mustang compared to the Spitfire he had been flying. It had a floor board, a heater, a windscreen defroster...even an ashtray! He later saw American pilots taxi in smoking cigars!

Hope to hear from you again...and thanks for inspiring me to get off my duff and get back in touch with Dr. Roemmele... this is turning out to be an interesting ride!

Brian

[Arniec]

Thanx Brian for al the info.

This is very interesting. I wish I was there as well.

Maybee the Dr didn't know him because he was in the other Flight?! I can remember from the Squadron Operation Book that Dr R. was flying in the morning and in midday that Thorne was flying or vice versa. Thorne was called Jimmy (If I remember it wel.) He was a American (state New York) who loved Pigeons.

I wil try to scan a picture of him and send it to you tomorrow.

Wel I have some question you may ask for me:

In what flight was he A or B (after reading the mail I would say B flight)? And In witch flight was FB110 (K) belonging?Was FB1110 a loaner from A flight? Or did they use that same plane if there was a shortage in the other Flight.

What was the time that he flew " T " frequently (If he can remember)If it was in the time around D-Day (june /July ) than the possabilaty is that it was FB180.

Dr.R. flew the FB180 at that time very frequently. The FB180 was writen of after a crashlanding from Thorne also on the 26th of July ?! this was after he shot down two Fw-190's and a third whome was damaged.

Maybee a bold question, but if you are trying to copy the Log book from the Dr. could it be possible that you could scan it? Or make a extra copy for me?

I would be very interested.

Arnold

Edited August 25, 2010 by Arniec

[Brian J]

Mornin' Arnold

It wasn't until I got home and digested the conversation that I realized that maybe "T" was "180." As I indicated earlier I plan on a second visit with Dr. R. next week and hope that we can be a little more disciplined and organized. I will present your latest questions to him. I left several of my books with him and hopefully that will jar his memory even more. His wife asked if I can make transcripts of my notes for their children and grandchildren. I bought a voice recorder and hopefully get some detailed stories on a disk. I'll let you know about copies of his log and would be more than happy to share with you whatever I find.

Ain't this fun!

Brian

[Arniec]

Hi Brian,

This Is realy fun! I am also very currius about al the outcome of this.

Do you know if he hase some more pictures as wel? This could also be very interesting .

When I am going to build my model (that wil be soon), I wil get some pictures of it and when it is finnished I will send them to you. Maybee I will even do a in progress on this site.

For the Model I will use the Trumpeter 1/32 version (with al the correcxtion sets from Aires).

It will be the plan to build it and be ready around the IPMS England show (at Telford) next year.

Maybee in a sort of Diorama with everything open (engine, gun bays, etc)

Chears Arnold