Repainted Spitfire Mk II colours

[Wlad]

Hi

 

I am building a model of Spitfire Mk IIa P7856 as it looked in October 1941. The AeroMaster decal sheet states:

“The original Dark Earth areas of the camouflage have been over-painted in a Mixed Grey colour” 

and later 

“The bottom of this A/C was Lt. Sky Blue”

 

The question I have is what colour were the undersides? If the aircraft simply had its Dark Earth areas overpainted with a Mixed Grey, is it possible the undersides were left in Sky as an expedience measure and that’s what is meant by Lt. Sky Blue? Or were the undersides painted in Medium Sea Grey as per specifications?

 

The colour plates for the decals and the one in Bracken’s “Spitfire The Canadians” show Medium Sea Grey.

 

Thanks

Wlad

[Troy Smith]

Not turning up an image,  but I'd say Medium Sea Grey,  as this was the specified undersurface colour for the Day Fighter Scheme.

see here for a very good primer on the entire subject

http://www.boxartden.com/gallery/index.php/Profiles/Camoflage-Markings/01-Supermarine-Spitfire

 

plus the  Bracken book is noted for it's careful research, Aeromaster are known as "Errormaster" ...

 

HTH

[303sqn]

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/uk/raf/spitfire5/spitfire-mk-iia-p7856-yt-o-at-tangmere-65sq/

 

There is the photograph. The spinner and fuselage band might be Sky Blue and are a much lighter tone than the codes (which should have been repainted with Sky) and the undersurface colour that has been painted over the fusrlage band. In which case it is almost certainly MSG.

[Troy Smith]

The Aeromaster sheet is for P7856 while with 412 Sq, coded VZ-E,  profiles and  models, no photo, though  I found the 65 Sq shot,   and then checked what sheet it was from.

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/173335-aeromaster-48-681-post-battle-of-britain-mk-ii-and-mk-v-spitfires-pt-i

 

just to confirm, a look here

http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p005.html

Quote

P7856

IIa

CBAF

MXII

38MU 2-2-41 65S 57OTU air collision with P8144 crashed Shilbottle Northumberland 7-5-43

 

no list of being with 412Sq so serial maybe wrong?

 

@gingerbob   this ring  any bells?

[Wlad]

@Troy Smith, thank you for the link. I have two summaries of the colour schemes and they are not as in depth as the "Camouflage and Markings" book. This is really good.

 

You found the decal sheet I have. While reading the entries I understood how the ErrorMaster nickname came into being. Now as far as the serial number possibly being incorrect, that makes things interesting. Thanks for checking.

 

@303sqn I came across that picture earlier, yet I didn't pay attention as I was looking for one while with 412 Squadron. I agree with your assessment as to the colours. It appears the codes were in Medium Sea Grey when they should have been Sky. If it is indeed P7856 which was transferred to 412 Squadron (see Troy's post above), then it was already in the new day fighter scheme at the time of the transfer. Thanks for the picture.

 

Cheers

Wlad

[gingerbob]

12 hours ago, 303sqn said:

There is the photograph.

 

I also found that photo, but suspect that it shows the airplane while still in the earlier (Green/Brown) scheme.  Re Troy's comments, unfortunately this one's individual history (as given in Spit the Hist) is a garbled entry.  Air Britain's summary (no dates) shows: 65/616/Digby/310/416/61OTU/57OTU.  According to one web entry, the collision with P8144 is correct, but P7856 was able to land.  Air Britain says: no further trace 9 Mar '44, so possibly it survived the accident but not the "post op" with the repair organization?

 

Oops, just noticed you said 412 Squadron- I'll have to look at the Bracken books.  Wait, I have an idea... (I'll be back)

 

Meanwhile... it should look something like this:

 

Note, in the video you can see (thanks to the ORB):

C (serial?)

B (P8086)

F (P8250)

and possibly A (serial?)

Edited February 4, 2018 by gingerbob

[gingerbob]

Me again.  Here's the beginning of 412 Squadron ORB pages for October '41.  As noted on 8th, they are beginning to change over to the Vb.  On the 13th the squadron's first kill is scored, by MacDonell (action report on preceding 2 pages) - in P7856!

 

Interesting, though not related to this query: 25 Oct "In the late afternoon Sgt Pickell returned from the Rolls Royce Works at Hucknall with a new Spitfire Vb which had been fitted with the new negative "G" carburettor which now prevent the engine cutting when the control column is pushed sharply forward.  Previously RAF fighter aircraft were at a disadvantage in carrying out this manoeuvre when in combat with German fighters which are fitted with the fuel injection system.  Incidentally 412 Squadron is the first Unit in the RAF to be fitted with this new gadget."

 

Ah, here we are, she's listed on the 1st, and flown by Magee on 2nd and 3rd. AND if you look on the 10th, you can see that the person who made the entry in the ORB substituted the individual aircraft letter for the "P" of the serial- and it shows "E"7856.  QED!  (The same style of presentation is done again on the next day or two.)

 

Well, that was fun,

bob

 

p.s. I'd put in several other links to relevant pages, but had a weird formatting problem and had to overhaul my text, losing the links.  Anyway, there are a couple in the first paragraph, and you can page up and down from there.

 

Edited February 4, 2018 by gingerbob

[303sqn]

It was a common practice for some to record, in ORBs and logbooks, the aircraft's individual letter and only the numeric part of the serial, like so.

[Graham Boak]

RJ Cork did this in his logbook during his time with the RAF in 1940.

 

Re the use of Sky Blue for the tailband and spinner.  This was fairly common in late 1940 but the introduction of the Day Fighter Scheme seems a bit late for it.  However P7856 was a fairly old aircraft by then so could still have been in its original colours.  In which case we have Sky code letters and Medium Sea Grey undersides, which seems likelier than MSG codes in this period.

[Wlad]

@gingerbob thank you for the video link and ORB pages. You've solved the puzzle, I've got all my questions answered and I know how to answer future ones myself.

 

Gentlemen, you've gone above and beyond the call of duty. Much appreciated.

 

Now to get the model built!

 

Cheers,

Wlad