WWII US ANA equivalent's for RAF Interior colours

[LDSModeller]

Hi all

One for our colour experts

The title says it all really.

To be really specific was there a US equivalent for RAF grey green for aircraft purchased by the RAF,

more specically those organised by the MAP in 1940.

I am aware that some aircraft were painted in RAF paints manufactured to

British standards by US manufacturers, no problem there.

The ones I have some trouble with is the ANA equivlalents. The exterior colours I have sorted in my head no problem

there, but what about the interior colour?

Was there an equivalent paint? if so what was it?

Your expertise in this would be most welcome

Thanks

Alan

[Test Graham]

No single colour was used. Later in the war the instructions called for Interior Green, which was a mix of black and Zinc Chromate primer, but the proportions varied, and not all manufacturers used it. This is discussed almost interminably on other websites: go to Hyperscale and search there. There is a good article on the IPMS Stockholm website, well worth a study.

[Dave Fleming]

There wasn't an equivalent for interiors - whilst some pre-War purchases (e.g. Hudsons) had RAF Grey green interiors, later ones would have had their US interior colours

[Nick Millman]

Although different US manufacturers sourced paint from different contractors, the AM requirements were articulated to Du Pont paint standards which served effectively as a "translation" standard between AM and US paints:-

" . . . a 12 March 1942 memo from the British Air Commission to the (US) Defense Aid Organization requesting that all future B-17Es be delivered in Extra Dark Sea Gray and Dark Slate Gray over White (the temperate ASW scheme). What makes the document important is its explanation of the BAC’s mechanism for communicating color standards at that time. All color names are followed by a Du Pont color number. The letter states, “I have quoted the Dupont colour numbers since these are in a booklet which the Defense Aid Organization has and further it may accelerate the ordering of paints. The British Air Commission has no special preference for Dupont, but it gives an easy reference.” This is the first indication I’ve seen showing how the BAC told Americans to match the Air Ministry colors." (Dana Bell)

The Du Pont paint colour used as a standard for the interiors of US manufactured aircraft for the RAF was 71-036 Cockpit Light Green.

Even where other paint manufacturers were contracted to supply paints the standard they were expected to match to was the Du Pont. This information is also relevant to the question of undersurface paints on US export aircraft, where Du Pont 71-021 Sky-Type S Grey was cited as the "easy reference" standard for the Duck Egg Blue specified in US factory paint diagrams. The existence of Du Pont paint swatches and a Du Pont colour card for RAF aircraft further emphasises this connection. It is possible that the booklet referred to in the letter and the Du Pont RAF colour card are one and the same.

After the standardisation of colours in 1943 the US paint standard became ANA 611 Non-specular interior green (ANA Spec AN-1-9, Bulletins 157 & 166)

Edited January 14, 2009 by Nick Millman

[timbo33]

Nick,

I've followed your many posts on this and other paint-related threads with interest. I suppose the question on most of our minds is though, are there any model paints out there that match these Du Pont colours to an acceptable standard?

[Nick Millman]

Hi Timbo

A well-known paint expert has been beavering away with matches for 71-021 and hopefully the results can be published in the near future. Humbrol 23 Duck Egg Blue used to be a reasonable match out of the tin (unsurprisingly) but I have noticed that recent tins are not quite so blueish and have become closer to Sky. It is probably still a good contender if you want a straightforward option.

I'm afraid that I don't have a match for 71-036 at this time.

I realise that the main interest here will be matching hobby paints to the colours which made me think that my posts are probably just serving to confuse. Another problem is the international aspect where modellers use so many different ranges of paint these days!

Kind regards

Nick

[Steven Eisenman]

There has been some speculation and poor quality photos from a Canadian movie that seems to indicate that Lockheed used a color close to RAF interior gray-green in the Hudsons.

This one may be a Lockheed factory photo.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Steven Eisenman

[Nick Millman]

Although it was shot entirely on location in Canada the film is 'Captains of the Clouds' made by Warner Brothers, Hollywood in 1942. It starred James Cagney in his first technicolour film and is an excellent resource for live action colour footage of export Hudsons. I'm not sure the third image is from this film though - it looks like it was taken from a good quality colour slide.

Grey Green was specified by AM for the painting of cockpits of all aircraft to be supplied to the RAF. The FS 595b value 34227 is an approximate match - just a little bit too dark. Humbrol 78 Matt Cockpit Green is also a good match.

Edited January 14, 2009 by Nick Millman

[Dave Fleming]

There is the wreck of one up here that still, 60 years later, shows the colour pretty well!!

http://www.peakdistrictaircrashes.co.uk/pa...otlandt9432.htm

[Nick Millman]

There is the wreck of one up here that still, 60 years later, shows the colour pretty well!!

http://www.peakdistrictaircrashes.co.uk/pa...otlandt9432.htm

Very sad but very interesting. Bearing in mind the weather conditions a remarkable testimony to the quality of the paint and application.

[Steven Eisenman]

Thanks Dave;

been looking for the crash site pictures. Thought I had them.

[LDSModeller]

Hi Gents

Thanks for the replies

In reading the comments made by Nick/Steven I hunted through some photos taken

by me at MOTAT (Museum of Transport and Technology) here in Auckland.

The first shot is the access door of a Hudson supplied from stock brought by

the British Purchasing Commission, I think it closely matches the photos above?

If it be that colour or smilar to RAF grey Green, then I think I have painted my

339E cockpit the wrong colour (Bronze Green-bit late now!! )

Nick, I had forgotten I had taken these but same aircraft sans wings, check out

the Sky-Grey

Thie next shot is a panel that has not weathered out side from same aircraft

Now I know this slightly off topic but a conundrum appears

Check this link out, the photo of a US supplied Ventura to the RNZAF which has a Duckegg Blue colour

http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/vencos.jpg

What do we do now? two different colours, the question is which one is right?

I will state that the ventura has been repainted in BALM (Australia/NZ paint std) equivalent to

US ANA system, so colour may differ tone wise some what but still very close

Your thoughts

Regards

Alan

[Nick Millman]

Well, I'm a bit reluctant to speculate on the appearance of those colours because as other threads demonstrate it can develop into the endless/pointless realm! Also, the usual health warning re colour photographs. They are interesting, compelling, seductive even, but cannot be considered reliable in terms of matching colours. I would go so far as to say that colour photographs have raised more questions than they have provided answers. They have also contributed to many misperceptions regarding aircraft colour schemes.

Having said that . . .

The undersurface colour of the Hudson looks as you would expect - a fairly reasonable match to RAF Sky - preferably described as a "US Sky substitute" rather than "Sky Grey" as the latter was a completely different and unrelated AM paint standard and we cannot know whether the paint was actually 71-021 Sky - Type S Grey. Other colour photographs of Hudsons also show what appear to be reasonable matches to the required RAF Sky, where they are not painted Aluminium.

The upper surface colours look like faded Du Pont substitute paints - if they are original. Do you have a serial number for this aircraft?

Regarding the Ventura I think you have answered your own query if it was re-painted with BALM standard colours. The most recent reference to NZ Venturas is Classic Warbirds # 8 which identifies two undersurface paints in use on this type (other than delivery colours):-

S13-907 33B/293 Sky Grey (FS 35352)

S13-909 3B/222 Duck Egg Blue (FS 35414)

However, there is a problem with the two FS 595b equivalents given for these colours in the book. Firstly they are too similar to each other (the difference calculation for the two FS 595b equivalent values is only 2.46 where 2.0 or less = a close match and I cannot believe that separate paints would be manufactured for colours so close in appearance). Secondly the FS equivalent for Sky Grey appears much too dark, blue and green in comparison to the artwork in the book and (FWIW) colour photographs. S13-907 is also compared to BS 631 Light Grey but the FS value quoted is nothing like that colour! I do wonder if the cited FS # was misprinted?

Unfortunately the linked site also quotes this odd FS value for NZ Sky Grey, but also 35299 for NZ Sky which I presume is meant to be the same as Duck Egg Blue - a deeper, more turquoise looking paint than the RAF Sky/Duck Egg Blue!

Only the first RB-34's were delivered in US substitute Dark Earth, Dark Green (actually OD) and Sky. Some may have been in OD over Neutral Gray. They all appear to have been re-painted locally, so it is unlikely, even if this example had not been restored, that we are looking at a US Sky substitute. The PV-1's were delivered in USN schemes, the first 9 in the two tone scheme of Blue Gray over Light Gray and the subsequent deliveries in the three-tone scheme. The local re-paints involved undersurface colours of Sky Grey and/or Duck Egg Blue, we are told.

If the Ventura is still in original colours, (big 'if' as the link says it has been "restored"), I would venture it is painted in 907 or possibly from its appearance even Australian Sky Blue. It does not appear to be a US Sky substitute. However, without a lot more information about the history of this particular aircraft and an opportunity to examine the paint and measure its colour that is just subjective speculation.

One other aspect I should mention is that a very cool, bright pale blue has been identified on some early export aircraft, particularly Martlet and Mohawk, possibly Buffalo. It is not known whether this represents a variation on early US attempts to match to "Duck Egg Blue" or is in some way connected to the taking over of French orders by the British, either expediently or as an interim colour to ease production flow, as it seems a reasonably close match to 'Bleu Ciel'. There was something of a 'war' going on within the AM as to the preferred undersurface colour for RAF aircraft, with a "Sky camp" and a "Sky Blue" camp. The "Sky camp" complained that the bright pale blue on some of the early US exports was too much like enemy aircraft. That is a simplification of a lot of correspondence and minutes, but it may have been one reason for the re-introduction of undersurface roundels as American built aircraft began arriving and being flown over Britain - entirely my speculation and I have no evidence for it.

Edited January 15, 2009 by Nick Millman

[LDSModeller]

Well, I'm a bit reluctant to speculate on the appearance of those colours because as other threads demonstrate it can develop into the endless/pointless realm! Also, the usual health warning re colour photographs. They are interesting, compelling, seductive even, but cannot be considered reliable in terms of matching colours. I would go so far as to say that colour photographs have raised more questions than they have provided answers. They have also contributed to many misperceptions regarding aircraft colour schemes.

Hudson

The upper surface colours look like faded Du Pont substitute paints - if they are original. Do you have a serial number for this aircraft?

Hi Nick

Thanks for your reply, enjoy reading them.

Apologies, I didn't want to drop you in "it" re the paint colours and rambling dicussions.

Some posts ago you (RAF Mustang from memory) posted a colour chip US Sky Grey type S Dupont, In looking

at the inner panels I thought it looked close to the chip posted, hence my posting, but now that you

mention it, it does look like Sky Type S.

The Hudson Serial is NZ 2031 (previously AE 499 from the British Purchasing Commission)

The Ventura , yes I realised I had answered my question much later on, but it was too late....

I guess in reality the reason for my secondary question re the right colours (Dupont Sky/Duckegg blue)

is that I am ready to add the lower fuselage colour to my RAF Buffalo and (you may have answered that

for me also with mention of the light blue) I guess I would just like to get it right.

Thanks for taking the time in answering my queries.

Regards

Alan

Edited January 16, 2009 by LDSModeller

[Nick Millman]

Hi Alan

I'd hesitate to interpret the Hudson undersurface as anything other than "US Sky substitute" and I think you will need to make your own mind up whether it is closer to 71-021 or the genuine Sky.

Re the Buffalo, Stuart Lloyd reckons that the early Martlet undersurface colours were close to AM Sky Blue, which is in turn quite close to Bleu Ciel. Here are 3 measured values for AM Sky Blue together with the Du Pont 71-021 swatch for you to consider. Against the Sky Blue the 71-021 begins to look much closer to Sky. Against Sky it looks more blueish (yikes - juxtaposition!). I've also attached an image of some pieces from the undersurface of Russian P-40 wreckage, appearing to show a pale blue that may or may not be the same or similar "bright pale blue" colour as described for early Martlets. Bingham-Wallis (67 Squadron) also described the Buffalo undersurface as "pale blue" and mentions that the Sky fuselage band was "a shade lighter". I guess we won't know for sure until the FAA Museum Martlet restoration is complete and the original pale blue undersurface paint is measured.

The original "Duck Egg Blue" ("the colour of a Mallard egg") is included for comparison purposes. Bear in mind that all the paints would show manufacturer, contractor and batch variables but that Brewster were probably matching to the RAF-specified "Duck Egg Blue". If I were making a Buffalo I would be inclined to choose one of these colours for the undersurface. One colour I would not choose would be light grey! :-)

Regards

Nick

Edited January 16, 2009 by Nick Millman

[LDSModeller]

Hi Nick

Thanks very much for those colour comparisions/photos.

Interesting you should mention the Russian P 40, Some years ago (around 2000-01) I visited with

a gentleman by the name of Charles Darby here in Auckland (work related) who was restoring

a P 40. Over to one side he had a P 40 wing salvaged fromthe Russian Steppe, which was reasonably

in one piece. The colour (though some 60 odd years old) was a " pale Blue" a resonable match

to the middle colour you provided.

Your comment on the Sky band being a shade lighter than the Martlet underside colour is of interest,

if you click on the link below the first photo shows the Sky fuslage strip lighter than the underside

colour (I know variables like Black/white photo, sun strike etc comes into it but you can get the

general idea) on page 28 of the book F2A Buffalo in action, there is a similar photo showing again the

Sky strip lighter than the fuselage underside colour. (If you scroll down to the last photo the underside

colour is quite light, certainly not AM Sky Grey!)

http://www.thescale.info/news/publish/67-S...-Buffalos.shtml

Your comment on grey had me chuckle

When I first started my research into the colours for the RAF 339E Buffalo, I found a few builds

who cited "Light Grey" FS 36622/FS 36463 as the undersurface. I made up a colour swatch to see what

it looked like, and it just didn't look right!!

I tried the Humbrol 23 path and yeah, like you noted it appeared more SKY Type S than Duck Egg Blue (sigh).

Below is a photo of a mix I came up with eventually, but I think it's stll not right, so... I will try again, with those colour

references should be a little easier

Thanks for all you help, it's very much appreciated.

Kind Regards

Alan

Edited January 17, 2009 by LDSModeller

[Nick Millman]

Hi Alan

Doesn't look too bad to me - maybe a tad more greenish? The best matches to the 71-021 swatch I've seen so far involve combinations of Humbrol and Revell paints. If they would be of interest to you I could put you in touch with the colour expert who is working on them.

A couple of other points on Sky/US Sky subsitute finishes may be worth noting.

M J F Bowyer mentions "two distinct shades of Sky" being visible on the undersurfaces of P-40 Tomahawks seen in the early part of 1941 "one a rich Duck Egg Green shade, the other a very blue tone." There is no mention of light grey in his writings on the subject of US export aircraft which were all based on wartime spotting and note taking. The same for Ian D Huntley who also spotted, took notes and made colour sketches during the war. No light grey is mentioned. Not surprising, as it is difficult to see how light grey could be arrived at from even the broadest interpretation of the majority of US factory paint diagrams which called for "Duck Egg Blue". Far more probable that any light grey appearance was the result of the applied paint being roasted, steamed, hosed, and sand blasted in the prevailing SE Asian climate, not to mention the effects of exhaust, oil and dirty rags. Ron Belling conducted some experiments by exposing plates painted with genuine Sky paint on an out-building roof: "After two months, matt Sky was the first colour to change, and six months later it was very slightly more grey than the gloss sample, which had remained unaltered. After sixteen months matt Sky had become a more blue-grey than the gloss because the Yellow had evidently faded out of the surface layer, having been broken down by ultra-violet."

It could reasonably be expected that the SE Asian climate might accelerate these effects.

Mr Bowyer described the typical appearance of Sky as "greenish blue", although subsequently it has been represented more as a pale grey green, sometimes distinctly yellowish. Later in the war, around 1944, he comments that the Sky shade could appear so pale as to be almost an off-white. The original manufacturers of Sky, Titanine Ltd., described the paint colour thus:-

"the SBOAC formulation in use during the war consisted of White tinted with about 4% Yellow Oxide and a trace of Prussian Blue. The white pigment varied with the type of paint - NC (nitro-cellulose) paints used Zinc Oxide while Synthetic Resin paints used Titanium Dioxide, Antimony Oxide and some Zinc Oxide."

These variations in white pigment would certainly affect the appearance of the resultant paint, as would the purity of the Yellow Oxide (which can range from a fairly strong yellow to a more brownish ochre), and the amount of Prussian Blue added which was not precise. Prussian Blue is a dark blue of distinct appearance and very strong colour, especially strong when mixing it with other lighter colours. In matching Duck Egg Blue the US manufacturers probably encountered the same variations. The 71-021 swatch has a very subtle blue-green appearance which is easily shifted to a pale grey in printed or digital colour reproduction. It may be worth trying mixes using primary colours to represent the constituent pigments. Various yellows/ochres and whites with Prussian Blue.

Regards

Nick

Edited January 18, 2009 by Nick Millman

[LDSModeller]

Hi Nick

Thanks again for your comments.

Re the colour I mixed, the amusing thing is (perhaps in hindsight not so) it had all the apperance

of blue-green prior to painting, and once I had sprayed it on, well the photo says all

Up until now I have only used Humbrol, and had not even considered a combination of Humbrol/Revell.

Re The colour expert, Yes if you wouldn't mind, I would really like to try out the combination.

(Would you like me to send you a PM?)

To some it may sound I am some what pedantic about this but, I have done a lot of research

into this model, and tried to build as an authentic RAF 339E Buffalo as possible so, I would

like to get the colour right too.

Thanks/regards

Alan

[Nick Millman]

Hi Alan

(Would you like me to send you a PM?)

Yes, that would be best. Then I can send you the mixes and his contact details.

To some it may sound I am some what pedantic about this but, I have done a lot of research

into this model, and tried to build as an authentic RAF 339E Buffalo as possible so, I would

like to get the colour right too.

Don't worry about it. It's your model and you are entitled to be as pedantic as you like! I don't think it is being pedantic though; at the end of the day the model has to satisfy your requirements and I know how it can be if you end up with colours that don't look right to you. On a large scale model the subtle differences in colour are even more apparent.

At an artistic level the blue green subtleties of the Sky colours are more interesting and visually pleasing in combination with the RAF insignia than light grey.

Regards

Nick