Spitfire ID plate censoring in photos question...

[JMChladek]

Okay, I thought I would ask this here even though technically the Spit I am building is a pre-war bird from May 1939. I've got a question about the photo censoring that was done specifically to a line of Duxford's 19 Squadron birds on line in May 1939 for a press shoot (when the aircraft briefly had "WZ" squadron codes). Does anyone know if those planes had their serial numbers painted on the fuselage and they were censored out in film production, or if the planes perhaps might have had their codes removed in the paintshop prior to the big day with the press coming to visit?

The following image is a picture I took of a page out of "Spitfire, Flying Legend" (I didn't want to risk messing up the binding by scanning it) and it is one of the famous photos taken on that day.

Reason I ask is although the specific aircraft I am doing, WZ-C has no code showing, I may do a code anyway even if I have to make one up as it seems Duxford did something pretty cool with markings on the nose as they put a tiny four digit code in romanesque numerals just below the spinner in black and white (black numbers on the white underside, white numbers on the black).

BTW, those of you who can seemingly quote the squadron life of certain Spitfire airframes just from the serial number, how do you get that information? Is there a site I can reference?

Reason I ask is even though WZ-C has no discernable serial number, I might want to come up with one anyway even if it is slightly fictional. I know the aircraft is likely from the very first (or second) batch produced and it has an "A" pattern, meaning it is odd numbered. So I figure it is likely a K97__ or K98__ number and one of the first 79 airframes that had the Watts two bladed prop. If I knew of a list of 19 Squadron candidate airframes I can select from, it would help narrow my chances to perhaps one in 12 (disregarding those that might have already been scrapped in accidents on landing). And I figure even if I am not representing the correct airframe with the -C code, if I at least know it is a 19 Squadron bird and likely wore the "WZ" code, that would be enough to satisfy the research bug in me.

Thank you in advance.

Edited September 28, 2012 by JMChladek

[gingerbob]

To answer one of your questions, if you want to look at an individual history here's the place:

http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/home.htm

I'm not sure about the serials, though someone else should be along shortly. They were removed for a period of time, and I'm thinking this was during that time, but might likely be wrong

I can give you a list of serials with 19 Squadron to help narrow it down, but not right now, and anyway you'll still be guessing.

bob

[JMChladek]

Well the page you listed will certainly give me a start Bob. Thanks for that. So if I can get the second question answered, I'll be in the green for a bit. It will probably be at least three or four days before I am ready to begin painting and the serial problem likely won't come up until the decal stage anyway (I'm doing my Spit in the Interwar GB).

[Edgar]

In an article, in Scale Aircraft Modelling, Ted Hooton said that serials, in the K98-99 range, were painted out, and (possibly not always) repainted in 2" letters on the fin.

Edgar

[Mark12]

K9912 is reported as WZ-C although it was officially on 65 Squadron strength.

The reason for this anomaly may lie in the report that it was the test machine for the DH three blade propeller.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Mark12

[JMChladek]

Well, I do know that the WZ codes ended up with another squadron later on. But, that is some interesting food for thought. The serial number is low enough that it could have been a 19 Squadron machine at one point. But I don't entirely think the number is proper for this particular "WZ-C" though since it is an even number and this plane has the "A" scheme, meaning it should be odd numbered (assuming the plane didn't go through a whole repaint at Squadron level, which I find doubtful anyway since a couple other planes in the lineup are "B" scheme). But, it is worth some mulling over.

I've still got a bit of work to go before I can begin my paintwork anyway, but I appreciate the help as it does help at least point me in a right direction.

[gingerbob]

Here's your list, as best as I can figure:

K9790 (may have gone to Sup on 6 May for intensive examination)

K9795 possibly ‘B’

K9796 pranged 23 May?

K9799

K9800

K9801 possibly ‘R’

K9807

K9809

K9810 not certain it was with 19S, but had been at Farnborough in Apr, so not best pick!

K9811

K9821

K9824

K9825

K9826

K9841 joined 29 Apr, ex 66 Sqn

K9851 to Farnborough March 39, so don’t know if it came back

K9853 to Farnborough Feb 39, don’t know if it returned

K9854 only came to 19 on 4 May, after being at Farnborough

K9858 to 19 Sqn 24 Apr

K9859 to 19 Sqn 24 Apr, hit fence landing on 9 May!

They'd already been through at least six Spits prior to the photo shoot (and another had already gone to Sup for examination after intensive flying trials).

There's something under the chin, but I can't make it look like the start of a serial- perhaps you can make more sense of it:

And it looks like this one may have had a serial painted out?

I haven't found a good view of the fin to look for tiny numbers! [EDIT: there's a shot of the line from the other end, and clearly no serial on fin.]

Hope this helps,

bob

Edited October 1, 2012 by gingerbob

[JMChladek]

Wow, thanks Gingerbob. I can take it from here now.

The under the chin area does indeed appear to have a serial painted there in seriffed stencil numbers. The "97" was painted black on white and the final two numbers would be painted in white on black. A picture I have of Grumpy Unwin standing in front of another Spit shows the same thing and that is a neat little detail I want to potentially add to my Spit even if the big numbers got painted over. 19 Squadron also had K9798, but it got pranged very early on (I believe Bader was the pilot that killed it).

Edited September 30, 2012 by JMChladek

[Mark12]

Treat with caution but this is the accumulated knowledge.

K9790/W

K9794/T

K9795/B/N

K9798/L

K9810/R

K9824/T

K9851/J/I

K9912/C

Here I have bleached out the tail of WZ-C. The stencil at the top of the rudder is the rudder part number information.

The first aircraft in line is WZ- but with no individual code. Under the nose is the stencil '25'. I would suggest logically this is K9825.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Mark12

[gingerbob]

19 Squadron also had K9798, but it got pranged very early on...

Landed wheels-up at Duxford on 18 April- I eliminated all the ones from my list that seemed definitely unavailable on 4 May when the photos were supposedly taken.

I also made those numbers out to be '25', but without a great deal of confidence. But K9825 joined 19 Sqn in December, so why would it have no individual letter in May? It doesn't look like it was just overpainted, in preparation for a change of letter. Hmm...

I think I've seen the photo of Unwin you (JM) refer to, but haven't run across it now to compare. I'm having trouble seeing that as 97 or 98, or for that matter K9. Incidentally, the serials were on the fuselage when the aircraft still had silver bottoms, so WERE painted out. It looks like 'I' (3rd in line) might have something on the fin (not rudder), but I don't expect to find a serial. Note also the variation in tail camo line- maybe a result of painting out the big numbers that they carried there temporarily? Note also that 'C' still has the rudder-guard (for the anti-spin parachute), and the flat-topped hood- that might help narrow it down.

And what's the "shiny/bright spot" near the front of the rudder horn? Some sort of data-plate or painted instruction?

bob

Edit: Found the Unwin photo (in Spitfire Flying Legend). I suppose with a great deal of imagination (willingness) those digits MIGHT be 98, but I'm still not convinced. When did squadron letters get applied (start getting used)? I don't have any more time right now, alas!

Edited September 30, 2012 by gingerbob

[Smithy]

A picture I have of Grumpy Unwin standing in front of another Spit shows the same thing

That's the photo of Grumpy with Flash in front of K9798 at Duxford in late 1938. With half the serial stencilled in black on the white side of the underside and white on the black side.

[Mark12]

And what's the "shiny/bright spot" near the front of the rudder horn? Some sort of data-plate or painted instruction?

bob

Possibly an early position for the celluloid panel sewn in to the rudder fabric to view the rudder metalwork data plate. If so, latterly the plate was moved to the postion shown set back from the the fabric and to avoid the disturbance of celluloid over the plate and domed rivet on the horn structure. Smoother.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Mark12

[Flying Badger]

Also K9789

This was the first spitfire to enter service with the RAF and was delivered to 19 squadron on 4th August 1938. Not sure what happened to her (gingerbob - is she one of the write offs or returns to Supmarine?).

With regard to WZ-C the info I have says that it had it's serial numbers painted out in May 1939. Also it says that unlike some of the other spitfires with 19sqn by then it was an older aicraft and still had the original flat camopy rather than the bulged variant that became standard later - I assume that means it also didn't have the thicker bullet proof front screen that acompanied the change to the bulged canopy.

However, if you are doing a pre war spitfire then be aware that most of 19 squadron started out as not having the large letter codes on the fuselage side, and also had earlier roundels (Type A1 on top of the wings and type A underneath) on the outbreak of war these were altered by hand by painting out the yellow outer band, and the very earliest ones had the serials on the underside of the wings as well - these and the roundels seem to be removed when the wings are painted white and black. Also it seem that initially on the introduction of the large letter codes on the fuselage side early in the summer of 1939, the serials were overpainted but were later returned either under the letter codes as well as on small on the fin or just on the fin.

Regards,

FB

[Mark12]

Bob,

P9306 in Chicago with 1945 paint.

[gingerbob]

Also K9789

This was the first spitfire to enter service with the RAF and was delivered to 19 squadron on 4th August 1938. Not sure what happened to her (gingerbob - is she one of the write offs or returns to Supmarine?).

Yes, though there might be some question. One source says to Sup 16 Feb '39 for detailed examination, and I read between the lines that it was out of service for a considerable time.

Thanks for the Chicago example, Mark12- now I'm going to have to study every rudder horn I see in photos...

More in the morning (my morning!)

bob

[JMChladek]

I've already got the marking scheme research done Badger as I am using the Illiad decal sheet for my plane (albeit with some modifications to make it a little more accurate). Part of the reason I am doing WZ-C is because it is the slightly newer paintjob with the flat canopy (which seems to have been in the minority when the image was taken in May).

My mistake about Bader, the bird he pranged was one with a two speed DeHavilland prop when he didn't select the proper pitch setting (and he got his legs bent in the process). Grumpy got his nickname when he complained about Bader making a racket at night while patching his legs while others were trying to sleep.

I appreciate the efforts Mark (I really do as I learn something new with every post), but again it doesn't make sense for WZ-C to have an even ending serial number due to the camo being "A" pattern when it should be "B" for an even numbered bird. The number also seems to be too late to be in the May 1939 photo. THIS plane is early canopy while most of the rest in the line seem to have the bulged canopies (telling me it perhaps one of the earliest birds they got).

My leading candidate right now is K9799 for the serial I'll call my model (whether or not it is the real "WZ-C" as used by 19 Squadron). I figure that is the best I can hope for. I'll probably end up painting out the serial on the fuselage as that seems to be what was done, but I will stick a tiny four digit serial on the lower nose (which can be conveniently covered up by the prop when displayed in what appears to be its proper vertical position when the engine is off).

Once again, thank you gentlemen.

Edited October 1, 2012 by JMChladek

[Mark12]

None of the aircraft in the line up have the external armoured windscreen fitted but had you noticed that they do not have the semi-armoured top fuel tank cover, subseqently fitted to all Spitfires?

Initially, as with the oil tank, the fuel tank was designed to be in the airstream with fillet panels on the sides and rear to 'flush' it with the fuselage sheet metal. The tank on WZ-C seems to have been changed and not yet repainted, a feature you might care to incorporate in your model.

[Edgar]

The order, for code letters to be used, was sent out 27-4-39, in AMO A.154/39; in the same AMO 19 Squadron was allocated "WZ," and the black/white scheme, including underwing serials, was also included. With the standard Squadron complement being 18 aircraft, 19 simply might not have had time to do all of the airframes, by the time of that photograph; incidentally, the AMO gives a clue to some of the anomalies, for the underside colours, since it states, "The lower surface of the starboard plane and half the under surface of the fuselage is to be painted white. The corresponding port side is to be painted black."

Armoured glass had no correlation with the canopies, and was not fitted to Spitfire windscreens until 1940; Stanford Tuck tells how his Squadron got theirs during the Dunkirk evacuation, and he has good cause to remember it, since it was fitted in the morning, and saved his life, in the afternoon, when it intercepted a bullet from a 110's rear gunner. Supermarine give the date for its inclusion, on the production line, as July 2nd., 1940, with "Increasing headroom in pilot's hood" from 22-9-38, and "Incorporating pilot's domed hood" from 20-12-38," plus "Pilot's new hood introduction" from some indeterminate time in 1939.

In his SAM article, Ted Hooton noted that not all batches followed the "odd 'A' even 'B' " system, so you should not be surprised if your subject appears not to comply with the "rule."

Edgar

[gingerbob]

(Edgar snuck in while I was writing)

Is THAT why the early tank area had the extra panel lines on the aft edge and bottom? I've been puzzled by that.

'JM', I wouldn't put too much faith in "A because odd and B because even", though with these early serials it is probably safer, and I'm hoping to have at least a little confirmation to post shortly.

Wow, that close for squadron codes- no wonder the squadron letters on the first in line look clean, but there's no evidence of an individual letter having been there. Note also how the previous roundel has been overpainted to create the then-current style. (someone may have mentioned this already)

So much fun when you REALLY start to look at a moment in time...

bob

[Mark12]

Bob

When Spitfire Mk I K9942 was refurbished for the RAF Mueum by the Medway group it was reverted to an earlier mod state. The fuel tank cover was removed and fillets fitted. You can see that the fuel tank is on the 'skin line'. This accounts for why the top tank cover on all Spitfires and Seafires never looks flush and a bit of an after thought.

[gingerbob]

Yep, 'Flying Legend' p.15 (across from Grumpy) shows a factory view, and there's an already-painted fuel tank sitting in front of the aeroplane. Must have been under one of Douglas Adams' SEP fields... absolutely astonishing how many things are right there in front of me and I just don't think about them. Maybe I need to do some Zen meditation to get to the right sort of mindfulness before looking at Spitfire photos.

bob

[Edgar]

[JMChladek]

Mmmm, so the bird has a later fuel tank armor plate installed? Interesting. It could explain why the camo pattern on that area looks a little weird (like there was a touchup to the paint). I actually wasn't considering that bit since it would have been tough to retrofit and keep the subtlety. But, I just may do so now. Very interesting.... dare I say "Fascinating" like a certain Vulcan on television (one with pointed ears as opposed to the flying triangle).

Thanks again Mark.

Edited October 1, 2012 by JMChladek

[Mark12]

Mmmm, so the bird has a later fuel tank cover installed?

Err no.

WZ-C in the line up shot does not at this time have the armoured tank cover. It has what appears to be a replacement top tank that has yet to be fully painted.

Edited October 1, 2012 by Mark12

[JMChladek]

Ahhh, I see your point. Thanks!