Crusader MkIII fire extinguishers

[badger]

Hi all

I'm building a late mkiii Crusader with the longer gun and added armour. Both the Eduard etch set and the offical vehicle stowage diagram show later pattern fire extinguishers on either side of the turret bin.

I am struggling to find them in photos as most seem to have the earlier, smaller extinguishers mounted on the hull.

 

Is there any evidence the larger essex extinguishers were fitted to the Crusader III?

 

Kind regards

Ben

[Kingsman]

I would say not.  The Pyrene brass Carbon Tetrachloride type was still the sole service issue type in Crusader days and was still in widespread use into the 1960s until the health hazards came to light.  The Methyl Bromide bottle type (also a health hazard!) was used concurrently from some time in 1943.  They are really first seen on Shermans supplied directly to the UK and then on Cromwells and Churchills.  I imagine that Pyrene couldn't keep up with the increased demand as their extinguisher was fitted to every softskin as well as to AFVs.  The Conqueror at Bovington actually carries both types.

[badger]

Many thanks for the help @Kingsman. I had figured much the same but then came across this late last night on Panzerserra's website showing Crusader IIIs from the CIAB during a parade in 1943.

 

 

 

To my eye these are all late models with the longer gun. They also have a cage around the foremost aerial that isn't seen on a lot of MkIIIs

[Kingsman]

Good find.  The first 3 you can see fully in the centre and at least 3 on the left have the MkV L/50 gun.  The 2nd one in the centre is missing its muzzle counterweight.  The rest in the centre and seemingly most on the left still have the shorter Mk III L/37.  Hard to tell if those have the caged B Set antenna or the older fire extinguisher, even enlarged.

 

That makes these tanks late/final production Crusaders in 1943.  Despite effectively being out of front-line service, 771 Crusader IIIs were still built in 1943.  Which probably chimes with the concurrent use of both extinguisher types from some time in 1943.  I found a June 1943 stowage diagram for the Crusader OP which does list the "No4 Essex Type" extinguisher.  Bovington's earlier MkIII is still stowed for the Pyrene type.

[badger]

Thanks for the clarification - is it the angle or do these look like the turret tops are white?

[badger]

This is the one I'm basing my model on doesn't need to be an exact replica). No evidence of aerial cage, so will assume earlier extinguishers.

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:IWM-H-30925-Crusader-III-19430623.jpg

 

Has been uparmoured and I'm really hoping that's the longer gun as I've fitted one to the kit already.

 

Photo is dated 23/6/43.

 

Interestingly it seems to have a section of sideskirt fitted that looks like the fuller ones used in North Africa.

 

And I thought Shermans were complicated!!

[badger]

9 hours ago, badger said:

This is the one I'm basing my model on doesn't need to be an exact replica). No evidence of aerial cage, so will assume earlier extinguishers.

Playing around with this image earlier in photoshop and I can just make out the cage for the aerial against the background building.

 

I'll go with the later extinguishers now I've established this. Have ordered the SBS set from Wildcat Models as it has both styles so can always change back if new evidence comes to light

[Kingsman]

No the turret tops are not white.  Just reflection on new paint.  Yes the B Set antenna bases in your linked photo are caged (aerials only recieve, BTW - antennas receive and transmit).  The rear tank looks to have the shorter L/37 barrel judging by the overhang.  What looks like part of a cover on the muzzle making it look longer is a rolled-up rope ladder on the railing of the ship in the background.   Hard to tell with the front one with the foreshortening but it's a fair bet it has the short one too.  But who will know?  Delete this thread and no-one will know!😁

Edited May 13 by Kingsman
Bad spelling!

[Kingsman]

FYI.  Extinguisher, Fire, No4, Essex Type is just cut off this image top right.  The extinguisher on the back end of the left hand stowage bins isn't mentioned in this sketch

 

[Kingsman]

Now, if you look over on this thread https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235140169-crusader-iii-fuelwater-access-points/ you can see a Crusader being refuelled.  Can't tell the Mark.  But it has the Pyrene type extinguishers at the back of the fender stowage bin and no sign of one on the turret bin.  The Bovington Crusader III is the same.

 

So I'm thinking that some time during MkIII production the external extinguishers changed from a Pyrene at the back of each fender stowage bin to an Essex either side of the turret bin.  Easier to get to.  Note also that the stowage diagram here for the MkIII shows the tow cable stowed on the glacis from its previous position along the inside edge of the right hand stowage bins.

[badger]

@Kingsman - as always thanks for the help and the clarification on aerial vs antenna (something I didn't know). I agree with your points on the photo.

Much as I'd like the tank in the foreground to have the longer barrel, I also suspect it is the shorter one, although it does seem to have "later" features with the extra armour which I believe was brought in about the same time as the longer barrel and the antenna cage. 

It does have an odd looking sideskirt which seems like the upper section from the desert style.

I think I have enough to put together a representative model of a late version using the linked photo as "inspiration" (I won't add the tank name) - long barrel (its well and truly fixed in now so too late to change it), additional armour and Essex extinguishers. I may go with the glacis stowage for the tow cable as well.

I'd have never have thought Crusaders could be so complicated!

[Kingsman]

1 hour ago, badger said:

I'd have never have thought Crusaders could be so complicated!

Especially for something that was - charitably - obsolescent by 1943.  The Czech ones don't have the glacis tow cable stowage and you can see the brackets in the usual position along inside the stowage bin.