Recce Macchis, C.200 and C.202

[Graham Boak]

The recent Osprey on the Folgore mentions recce versions with a vertical camera behind the cockpit, but shows no examples.  Can anyone add information as to just what would be visible (and where) on the airframe, camouflage and markings for any of these aircraft, and availability of any transfer sheets that can be used or adopted?

 

I see that Kora offer a sheet for the Saetta in this role, with presumably much the same modification but remaining unknown to me.  I presume that these were used prior to the introduction of the Folgore.

[MDriskill]

Only a fractional answer I'm afraid, but in my Macchi references all I have is this diagram for a C.205 Veltro, from the Squadron Walk Around on the type (a really excellent and very reasonably-priced book, by the way). One assumes the C.202 was similar...but you know what they say about assumptions! 

 

 

The book's cover art shows a recce Veltro in action.

 

 

I know there were also C.200's and C.202's with small cine cameras in wing leading-edge fairing - but don't have any useful detail on those either!

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by MDriskill

[Graham Boak]

Seems logical enough, and strangely I haven't looked at what I have on the Veltro (not the Walk Around).  To be completely honest, I haven't looked at what I've got on the Folgore either, on the principle that the idea was new to me so there'd be nothing there.  Perhaps an unsafe assumption.

 

Initially I couldn't see your image, but it has popped up now.  It does match the description given for the Veltro in the Osprey, but doesn't show access hatches.  The text does call for the camera to have two belly doors operated by the pilot, rather than the protrudance with lip   This might be convenient, for I do have two Veltros and was wondering what t do with the other.  The same problem about markings does arise, although as all twelve went to the same unit then it would be a pretty same assumption to pick a number between 1 and 12.  Assuming I have suitable transfers for the 310th...  For the Folgore, the camera was different and no underwing tanks, so I wonder if the drawing was originally for a Folgore and the Veltro received a slightly different camera fitting?

[MDriskill]

WELL...as usual, I spoke too soon! I have a lot of Macchi references and the Walk Around for the C.205 is definitely the value-for-money leader.

 

On pages 53 and 54, it has 10 photos showing details of two different types of wing-mounted cameras, the drop tanks carried by recce versions (because the big Zeiss camera displaced the radios and secondary fuel tank normally mounted behind the cockpit), and the cockpit controls for the Zeiss, all with excellent captions. 

 

The "C.205/RF" Veltro in the cover art does indeed belong to the 310 Squadriglia Caccia Aerofotografica, but no squadron markings or individual number is depicted.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by MDriskill

[Graham Boak]

Wing mounted cameras were not for recce purposes (also on some Folgores)  but to provide genuine action film for propaganda purposes.

 

The tanks in the drawing look rather like those from Bf.110s, which may be a good modelling source.  If I have any,  They are quoted as 100 or 150 litre but later 180 litre tanks were used.

[MDriskill]

On 6/16/2022 at 10:21 AM, Graham Boak said:

Wing mounted cameras were not for recce purposes (also on some Folgores)  but to provide genuine action film for propaganda purposes.

The Walk Around notes they were sometimes used for low-level recon as well. The value of images obtained from a risky high-speed run with a forward-facing movie camera must have been debatable?

 

The Italian 150-liter tanks had fins (as seen in the cover painting), but the 100-liter ones did not.

Edited June 18, 2022 by MDriskill

[Giorgio N]

I will have a look in a couple of books, including some original wartime manuals.

One detail that can be useful to tell a recce configured MC.202 is the lack of the radio antenna, as the installation of the camera meant no room for the radio. Two aircraft that may have been configured for recce were MM 7711 and 7712. Pictures of MM 7711 can be found on the web, however nothing is visible of the camera fit in these.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

From what I know the Macchi MC202 recconaissance version had two ROBOT cameras mounted on the wings.There is a picture on page 22 of Aviolibri special no.1,Macchi MC202 Folgore part 1 by Maurizio di Terlizzi on page 22.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited June 16, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[MDriskill]

8 minutes ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

From what I know the Macchi MC202 recconaissance version had two ROBOT cameras mounted in the wings.

Thanks Giampiero. The Walk Around book notes that the C.205's wing cameras were not German-made Robot ones, but similar Italian-manufactured units - initially from Avia, later Guidon-cine.

[Graham Boak]

The Osprey (by Marco Mattioli) has a photo showing a Folgore with the two Avia 35mm film cameras - certainly not ideal for FR work.  Taken from 12 o'clock low.  No assistance for markings.

[Graham Boak]

6 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

One detail that can be useful to tell a recce configured MC.202 is the lack of the radio antenna, as the installation of the camera meant no room for the radio. Two aircraft that may have been configured for recce were MM 7711 and 7712. Pictures of MM 7711 can be found on the web, however nothing is visible of the camera fit in these.

 

It is difficult to tell the lack of a radio antenna on the early production aircraft, because the early fit was a smaller ("whip"?) aerial further aft, sometimes visible as a dark insulator at the base but not always. MM7711 and 7712 are both early (Serie I) aircraft: does this suggest that all 12 PR aircraft were from this batch?  Ali d'Italia P.14 has a photo of an apparently aerial-less 9th Stormo Folgore in the dark green continental scheme, which also appears to be a feature of early aircraft - although it is possible to confuse this with the early 3-colour scheme.  I haven't been able to find the photo of MM7711 on the net: which colour scheme does it appear to be carrying?  Ali d'Italia also has a photo P.35)  of MM7842 (51 Stormo 378 Sq.) crashed on Malta, but this is a later aircraft and in the 3-colour scheme (or at least 2 of them). .

 

If the camera installation had doors on all aircraft, it would be impossible to tell which had cameras apart from the aerial being absent, as access panels on the fuselage side are not visible in any photos - and indeed should not be present on the pure fighters.  Surely they should be present on the recce aircraft - perhaps only on the starboard side?

 

On a linked subject: is there an available listing of MM numbers, Serie, and factory?  I would assume so, but at the moment I don't even know whether any given Serie could be built at more than one factory.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

7 hours ago, Giorgio N said:

I will have a look in a couple of books, including some original wartime manuals.

One detail that can be useful to tell a recce configured MC.202 is the lack of the radio antenna, as the installation of the camera meant no room for the radio. Two aircraft that may have been configured for recce were MM 7711 and 7712. Pictures of MM 7711 can be found on the web, however nothing is visible of the camera fit in these.

Scusa pero`i due aerei che dici sono macchine della seconda serie e fanno parte dei primi dieci aeroplani costruiti.Il fatto che hanno l'antenna radio corta non ha niente da fare che sono ricognitori.Le prime serie del Macchi MC202 avevano tutte l'antenna radio corta.

 

I am sorry but the aircraft you said are second series machines and are part of the first ten machines.The fact that they have the short antenna mast has nothing to do with that they are recconaissance aircraft.The first series of Macchi MC202 all had the short radio antenna mast.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited June 16, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Graham Boak]

Hi Giampiero.  I think it is the absence of any aerials that distinguish the recce aircraft.  The small aerial on the early aircraft can be difficult to see on some photos, which could lead to confusion. However commentators identify them as fighters anyway rather than the rare recce aircraft.  I am interested in your comment that these were Serie II machines.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

From what I found doing a internet search the first ten Macchi MC202 ever built (matricola militare MM7709-MM7718) were seconda serie aircraft.The aircraft with the matricola militare MM7712 was built by Aermacchi at Lonate Pozzolo.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited June 16, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Graham Boak]

I have found a production list, in the Warpaint (Richard Caruana).  It is interesting to see that (as I suspected) different Serie were built in different factories, and that although the MM were generally sequential there were a few out-of-step batches.  Perhaps this kind of discontinuity was a deliberate attempt at confusion, akin the the "blackout blocks" in British production?  Sadly the list doesn't provide date ranges.

[MDriskill]

Ali d'Italia no. 22 on the Folgore lists the dates for each production "Serie." Some time ago I did this chart from that, to more graphically represent them...good luck reading my writing! (The shaded bars span the months noted; the numbers at each end of the bar are the first and last serial numbers, and number within the bar the number of aircraft.) Note that the earliest serials were actually assigned to SAI-built aircraft that came a year after the first Macchi and Breda ones!

 

Note that some batches were never built, and that these numbers don't reflect additional aircraft manufactured, or re-constituted from parts, under German control after the 1943 Armistice:

 

 

The C.202 was manufactured by Macchi, Breda, and SAI. The manufacturing "Serie" numbers reflect government contract paperwork, for a given number of machines from one manufacturer. They are not particularly tied to dates, or to production changes in the aircraft over time.

 

As noted above, chronologically the first C.202's were Macchi's "Serie II," a small batch that may have served to work out production bugs (but the "Serie I" contract with Breda must have been drawn up first). MM.7711 and MM.7712 from these initial aircraft would have had the complex early "poached egg" three-color upper-surface scheme using the older "Mimetico" series paints.

 

The small stub antenna is often called a "whip," but was a small rigid pole or tube. It's a feature of early machines from both Macchi and Breda, and can be seen with or without an aerial wire back to the fin.

Edited December 14, 2023 by MDriskill

[Giorgio N]

This is the production list from the Ali d'Italia volume

 

 

(Posted under fair use etc....)

[Giorgio N]

16 hours ago, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Scusa pero`i due aerei che dici sono macchine della seconda serie e fanno parte dei primi dieci aeroplani costruiti.Il fatto che hanno l'antenna radio corta non ha niente da fare che sono ricognitori.Le prime serie del Macchi MC202 avevano tutte l'antenna radio corta.

 

I am sorry but the aircraft you said are second series machines and are part of the first ten machines.The fact that they have the short antenna mast has nothing to do with that they are recconaissance aircraft.The first series of Macchi MC202 all had the short radio antenna mast.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

Giampiero.

yes those two were part of the very first batch. I have them listed in my notes as two aircraft known to have been configured for recce work, that does not mean that all these were part of that batch.

Aircraft configured for recce with a fuselage camera are described as lacking any radio equipment, regardless of the production batch. This makes sense as the cameras would have taken the place of the radio modulator. It is for this reason that they likely had no antenna of any kind.

[Mark Proulx]

I have a fairly exhaustive Macchi 200/202/205 library. However, you may want to consider a new release just published which I just added:

 

Macchi C.202 Folgore: Italys Best Fighter of the Second World War written by David F. Jabes, Alessandro Romanello and Niccolo Tognarini

 

Mark Proulx

 

 

[Graham Boak]

This sounds interesting, but does this add anything to the recce story?  In the sense of a fuller knowledge of the installation and the camouflage and markings of individual examples?  I have by my side six works dedicated to the two later types, which present a wide range of information but lack these very specific pieces.  I am prepared to believe that this new release does an excellent job on the overall history, and could perhaps replace every single one of these six (with some niche qualifications, perhaps), but my requirements are highly specific.  I realise this is what is creating problems.

 

Incidentally, Kora produce transfers for four recce MC.200s, two in Russia, but without (that I can see) information on the installation of and access to the cameras.  I do have an old Revell Macchi C.200 (with replacement tailplanes) so perhaps this could provide an escape - but I'd prefer to do this as a fighter-bomber.

 

The Osprey does provide three recce examples for the Folgore: MM7711, 378 Sq.; MM7712, 377 Sq.; MM7727, 73 Sq., all early Macchi builds (and hence 3-colour scheme?).  However the first profile is of MM7712 as 97-2 in September 1941 (and yes, 3-colour scheme, no to recce fit.)  This could be presenting different periods in the life of a single airframe, leading to the question of whether the recce conversions were new-build from the factory or conversions during overhaul after some period of service as fighters?  If the latter, was it repainted into a different scheme?

[Mark Proulx]

Graham...

 

I wouldn't say it adds to the Macchi recce story. I mentioned it as I found it to be a good read detailing the overall Macchi story. It goes into detail on the roots of the 202, its development and the operational pros and cons  as a fighter aircraft. It touches on training and Italian Air Force doctrine of the day. I know I learned lots new, at least to me.

 

Mark Proulx

[GiampieroSilvestri]

The book "airframe detail no.3,The Macchi MC202 Folgore,a Technical guide" by Maurizio Di Terlizzi from Valiant wing publications on page 56 shows the installation of the Avia Cine gun camera on the right wing.I have also looked in all my books about the Macchi MC202 Folgore and the MC200 Saetta (which are quite a lot).There is no mention of a Macchi Saetta or a Folgore with the camera installed behind the cockpit.I do not think that there were Macchi MC202 and MC200 with the Carl Zeiss camera behind the cockpit.I assume that the conversion was that they installed the two ROBOT cameras on the wing.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited June 18, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Mark Proulx]

Let me begin by saying a "don't have a dog in this fight" and am open to any conclusions. However, the cine camera identified in the book above on page 56 is said to be linked to the gun firing trigger on the control column. Wouldn't that make it a gun camera and not a recce camera? MMP books has the same images in their book and they identify this as a gun camera (pg 104) and was rarely used on combat aircraft.

 

Now, from the aforementioned book above  page 71 and 72:

 

Series II

 

"Those ten planes were built by Macchi in April to May 1941. At least two aircraft of this series, MM7711 (code 378-4, which was in service in the 378 Squadriglia CT) and MM7712 (originally code 97-2, 97 Squadriglia, 9 Gruppo, until the end of 1941, then code 168-2, 168 Squadriglia, 16 Gruppo, 54 Stormo, until at least the first half of 1942, and then probably 377-1, in service with 377 Squadriglia Autonoma, perhaps one of the three MC 202s received in February 1943) were Mc 202 RF photoreconnaissance variants with a camera machina fotoplanmetrica AGR 90 placed vertically behind the pilot instead of the radio, easily distinguishable by the lack of the antenna mast"

 

HTH

 

Mark Proulx

[Graham Boak]

The small wing cameras (one in each wing) were intended to provide genuine action film for the propaganda machine - or just cinema newsreels if you prefer.  Clearly it makes better film with the tracer shooting out, so linking it to the gun trigger makes complete sense.  But certainly not for recce.  Pure gun camera would not need two installations (I don't really see why the second is needed anyway) and would have been much more widely adopted.  This raises an interesting question about RA usage of such things, and perhaps explains some of the overclaiming.  But that's a wider subject, as is that of Italian PR and FR work in general.

 

I've seen absolutely no reference to recce MC.200s other than the Kora transfer sets, and these examples could indeed be purely visual.  However there is sufficient space behind the cockpit as for the later types.  Given the use of PR Spitfires and Hurricanes by the RAF, I see every reason why the RA would have adopted the practice, or even invented it independently, and it is logical to use the fastest fighter available.  But when?  Photos of this camera for the MC.205V are known, which suggests an adaption very early in this fighter's career, but that's only to be expected for an established operational need..  The question now appears to be less the existence of the MC.202RF (most of my books don't mention it either) but the timing of its appearance.  Were these built as new for the work or adapted later in their career?  Are these known codings appropriate to the RF or the same airframes in an earlier pure fighter use?  Retrospective modification could also apply to the MC.200, and such things do tend to be overlooked in the established books.

 

As an aside, how good is the Valiant book?  I find these generally a dustbin of assorted information with little attention paid to the reliability of their sources.  Is this one of the exceptions?

 

 

[MDriskill]

The Valiant book's author is not their usual team, but noted Italian researcher Maurizio Di Terlizzi. In my opinion it's excellent in every way, with much new-to-me info. Most of the nice color profiles are by Richard Caruana, but there are also a few by the late Ali d'Italia artist Angelo Brioschi.

 

I'm continuing to go through my library. No new info on recce C.202's, but the recent MMP/Stratus "Orange Series" book on the C.205 Veltro has several interesting bits of info that may also be relevant to the C.202:

 

+ About 8 C.205's with the faired wing-mounted cine cameras were produced. This work was likely done at unit level with varying details. "Serie I" aircraft with these had their wing-mounted machine guns removed.

+ About 14 C.205's with the vertical camera were produced. These were converted at the Guidonia test center (possibly explaining the lack of those typical lovely Italian factory manual drawings?). The majority were "Serie III" machines retaining wing cannon.

+ The vertical camera was a German-made Zeiss Rb 50/30 (Google brings up nice images of these. Aufklarer Volume One in Classic's "Luftwaffe Colours" series also has excellent info on German recce cameras.)

+ Most recce Veltros were fitted for wing-mounted drop tanks.

+ The underside opening for the vertical camera was "about 30 cm in diameter."

 

Edited December 14, 2023 by MDriskill