Recce Macchis, C.200 and C.202

[GiampieroSilvestri]

12 hours ago, MDriskill said:

MarkoZG and Giampiero: Please don't shoot the messenger! 🙄  I am merely passing along info provided by others. The caption makes clear that the photo depicts MM 7712 a year and a half after its recon days, in service with another squadron. A "Serie I" aircraft would have definitely had the yellow nose originally, and it is reasonable to think the other markings would have been there as well. I would have no qualms about modeling it as depicted on the decal sheet - and would probably add the tailwheel fairings back too! - but yes, I have a certain tolerance for "artistic license." 😄

 

Graham: These two excerpts from Chris Dunning's Courage Alone: the Italian Air Force 1941-1943 appear to agree with your conclusions, and with the info in the new Osprey book. (The first one is referring to 4 St, in the fall of 1941.)

 

 

 

 

No beating at all! 🙂

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[MDriskill]

No new historical revelations, but a detail note on the camera controls. The Aero Detail volume on the Macchi fighters has this excellent drawing, showing differences in the small lower instrument panel. The large switch on the right (noted 8, 15, and 27) is for the generator; the small rectangular items below the three small dials are ammo counters for the guns:

 

 

Which caused me to revisit these photos posted earlier in the thread:

 

 

Assuming the drawings are correct, and comparing to the lower panel details in these photos, we note:

 

+ The large upper photo looks like an early C.202, not a C.205 - large generator switch box (red arrow), only two ammo counters (yellow arrows).

+ The lower left image looks like a "Serie I" C.205 (smaller generator switch box, four ammo counters).

+ Each photo shows a different camera control box. An Italian "OMI" one in the C.202 (for ACR 90 camera?), a German unit in the 205 (for Zeiss Rb 50/30 camera?)

+ Note the camera controls are mounted beneath the C.202's lower panel, but above the C.205's much taller lower panel.

Edited August 11, 2022 by MDriskill

[Giorgio N]

Some information I found in an article by that appeared in the Italian magazine "Storia Militare"

Here there's mention of the aircraft equipped with the cameras on the wing leading edge, used to take films for propaganda purpose. It is then said:

" These were therefore not photo-recce aircraft and they must not be confused with the C.202 equipped with a panoramic camera type A.G.R.90 installed behind the pilot in place of the radio and used in recce missions.

We know of MM.771, coded 378-4 and others, MM.7712, coded 377-1 and others, and MM.7727, coded 73-10 and others. Sure a few tens of C.202s were converted in photo-recce aircraft and could be recognised by the lack of radio equipment and relative antennas"

 

Interestingly I've often read references to 73 Squadriglia as one unit involved in recce missions, so I've searched for pictures of 202s of this unit. One picture that may show an RF aircraft is this one:

https://www.asisbiz.com/il2/MC-202/Macchi-MC202-Folgore/images/Hurricane-MkIIa-HAD-Z2491-from-Malta-and-captured-over-Sicily-by-73-Squadriglia-01.jpg

 

There seems to be no antenna of any kind visible on this aircraft so it may be an RF. Unfortunately the quality is not great, codes are not really visible and the hump behind the cockpit is not fully in the frame.

 

 

Of the aircraft with Avia cameras on the wing leading edges, the article mentioned 7 built: MM. 7844, 9405, 9406, 9115, 9116, 9425 and 9426, all of Macchi production from series III, VII and IX

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Si pero`la domanda fatta piu`in alto e`molto buona.Come sono state caricati i film e mantenute le fotocamere?Non credo che dopo ogni missione hanno smontato l'abitacolo e dal basso non si vedono sportelli.

 

Yes but the question made above is very good.How were the cameras loaded and repaired?I don't think that the cockpit was disassembled after every mission and there are no visible panels underneath the aircraft.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[MDriskill]

An excellent question - and one could ask the same about the equipment in the rear of a normal aircraft - radios, fuel tank, etc. But a look at the factory manual drawings on CMPR's site yielded some ideas.

 

The radio components were located so they could be serviced from the hatch on top of the fuselage, just aft of the "spine" fairing:

 

Now the interesting part; note how the rear radiator fairing is all ONE piece - the upper and lower sections are built together, and are separate from the main fuselage structure. It was fairly easy to remove, via a single bolt into the radiator on each side, and the smaller screws into the fairing on each side:

 

So - could it have doubled as an access hatch? Removing this section created quite a large opening underneath the fuselage, just aft of the cockpit:

 

Removing this component is obviously how the usual fuel tank, pneumatic bottles, control linkages, etc. in this area of a standard fighter were serviced. Maybe a little less convenient for installing and daily servicing of a camera, but in conjunction with the adjacent new smaller opening for the camera lens and sliding cover, it looks workable.

Edited December 14, 2023 by MDriskill

[Graham Boak]

The comment about access applies equally to the CM200, 202, and 205: there is surely no doubt about the presence of the camera on the MC.205, so some means of access did exist on these aircraft.

 

Removing the rear radiator fairing is certainly an ingenious solution - although not on the MC.200.  Surely any solution created for this aircraft would have been carried over to the later ones. I suggest that the apparent absence of access hatches is more likely because we have yet to discover any high-quality photos of these rare aircraft.  My personal preference would be for the existence of access hatches under the belly aft of the radiator, with these generally hidden from view by shadows.  

 

However, Mattioli (Osprey) writes that the installation of the camera replaced the radios - as is backed by the comment of the removal of the radio mast.  I suggest that, in line with the MC.205, this would be behind the cockpit not in the same position as the radios.  As the camera was likely to be heavier than the radios this would avoid an aft centre of gravity producing stability problems.  Similarly, the position would certainly be as far forward as possible for the MC.200.  This would perhaps suggest the use of the radio hatch for every-day film cartridge replacement, which does seem awkward at best, but I am reminded of the wartime experience of a friend in the WRENS, who (because of her small size) was entrusted with worming her way into the rear of a Seafire's fuselage to carry out maintenance work.   Installation, removal and serious work on the camera itself would probably require access from the cockpit - or perhaps the rear radiator?    This approach would explain the apparent lack of specific access hatches, but does require some confirmation on the accessibility of the film cartridges.  

 

We do know (and I think all agree) the system worked on the MC.205, and there seems no reason to suppose any earlier system employed different principles.  It has the benefit of describing a system that would seem to work on all three types, with a minimum of conversion required on the real aircraft - and from a personal point of view, on the model!

[GiampieroSilvestri]

What is astonishing is that while being equipped with the same engine and being much bigger than the MC205 Veltro there were no Fiat G55 Centauro ricognitori.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited June 25, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Graham Boak]

The G.55's service was predominantly with the RSI, which (largely being subservient to the Luftwaffe) lacked the full range of operational roles and so there'd be no driving requirement for such an aircraft.  With the RA earlier, the MC.205 met the requirement.  Equally there seems to be no attempt the work with the Reggiane fighters.  This may indicate a lack of appreciation of the role in the RA, but may perhaps indicate some reliance on the Luftwaffe.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Ali d'Italia volume 3 about the Reggiane Re2001 on page 17 states."Also the photo reconnaissance version of the Reggiane Re2001 was built in very limited numbers.Two stream lined containers for photo and cine cameras were installed on the wing leading edges and fitted with forward or down facing windows".One aircraft also had a ROBOT camera fitted experimentally in the right wing.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[Graham Boak]

Thanks.  However this is yet more of these cine cameras but no mention of a large planimetric one.

[Zigomar]

Page 81 of Wings of Italy you'll find a very interesting picture, in color of a recce MC200. Baci.

[MDriskill]

Here is the Wings of Italy shot that Zigomar mentions - an excellent close-up of the cine camera enclosure! An interesting detail I'd never noticed before, is what appears to be an additional bump on top of the wing behind the leading edge fairing.

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by MDriskill

[Zigomar]

The bump is the access hatch to the camera. baci.

[MDriskill]

Thank you Zigomar!

 

How was the camera lens exposed for use? Did the front of the pointed fairing rotate or hinge in some manner?

[Zigomar]

1 hour ago, MDriskill said:

Thank you Zigomar!

 

How was the camera lens exposed for use? Did the front of the pointed fairing rotate or hinge in some manner?

Sorry I do not have the slightest idea! Regards.

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Most probably they were unscrewed before the mission and re-attached after landing to protect the lens from damage and the sand and dust in North Africa and Sicily.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Volume 30 of Italian magazine I Grandi aerei storici from september/october 2007 is about reconnaissance aircraft of the Regia Aeronautica.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[Zigomar]

Page 51 of Aviolibri n°9 on the MC 200 has a photo of a 12th Group plane with the wing camera ready.

[Giorgio N]

On 7/14/2022 at 4:30 PM, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Volume 30 of Italian magazine I Grandi aerei storici from september/october 2007 is about reconnaissance aircraft of the Regia Aeronautica.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

 

 

Is it any good ? I always had mixed feelings about this series, some featured interesting information, others just put together old stuff previously published on the magazines of the same publisher

[GiampieroSilvestri]

Non Te lo so dire,mi spiace.Ho trovato la fotografia in Internet.

 

I don't know.I am sorry but I only found that picture on the internet.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited July 18, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri

[MDriskill]

On 6/29/2022 at 4:06 PM, GiampieroSilvestri said:

Most probably they were unscrewed before the mission and re-attached after landing to protect the lens from damage and the sand and dust in North Africa and Sicily.

 

Giampiero

 

I have looked at this atmospheric photo of "Penelope" many times...but only now noticed this detail! It would appear that Giampiero is correct re: the cine camera's cover simply being removed prior to a photo mission. (Note also the great detail of the engine front and filtered carb intake...):
 

 

 

And here is the shot that Zigomar mentions above (and which Giampiero posted earlier), which looks very much the same:

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by MDriskill

[MDriskill]

Still puzzling over the issue of how the planimetric camera was accessed and serviced. At this point assumptions have out-distanced my references and brainpower, LOL. I can't really counter Graham's notes above,  but still suspect the rear radiator fairing was the key for the C.202 and 205 at least (for the C.200...alas, no clue). The closely-spaced fuselage structural members of the Macchi fuselage would have made adding a large side access panel tough to engineer, and absent any photo evidence I continue to doubt it happened (but would love to be proven wrong!). 

 

The radiator opening seems very well-placed for servicing the camera:

 

 

The opening appears adequately sized, too (though partially blocked by the rear of the cockpit floor). Roughly scaling off 1/48 drawings in the respective AeroDetail books, it was about 52 x 67 cm. (For comparison: the side access panels were approx. 30 x 41 cm on a Bf 109G, 43 x 48 cm on a "short nose" Fw 190, and 43 x 58 cm on a late 190.)

 

And these shots of an Rb 50/30 in a recce Fw 190 make one wonder how well even the side panel worked for manipulating the film canister! Obviously the mechanics who serviced these machines knew things we don't! 🙂

 

 

Edited August 11, 2022 by MDriskill

[GiampieroSilvestri]

51 minutes ago, MDriskill said:

Still puzzling over the issue of how the planimetric camera was accessed and serviced. At this point assumptions have out-distanced my references and brainpower, LOL. I can't really counter Graham's notes above,  but still suspect the rear radiator fairing was the key for the C.202 and 205 at least (for the C.200...alas, no clue). The closely-spaced fuselage structural members of the Macchi fuselage would have made adding a large side access panel tough to engineer, and absent any photo evidence I continue to doubt it happened (but would love to be proven wrong!). 

 

The radiator opening was well-placed for servicing the camera:

 

 

The opening seems to be adequately sized, too (though partially blocked by the rear of the cockpit floor). Roughly scaling off 1/48 drawings in the respective AeroDetail books, it was about 52 x 67 cm. To compare, the side access panels measured 30 x 41 cm on a Bf 109G, 43 x 48 cm on a "short nose" Fw 190, and 43 x 58 cm on a late 190.

 

And these shots of an Rb 50/30 in a recce Fw 190 make one wonder how well even the side panel worked for manipulating the film canister! Obviously the mechanics for all these machines knew things we don't! 🙂

 

 

The German description of the Flugzeug Classic article says"To take pictures from great heights you need cameras with big focal lenghts.The Focke Wulf Fw 190 A-3 with the Werknummer 300 had different cameras installed for test purposes.Especially the big cameras like the RB20/30,RB50/30 and RB75/30 take by far too much space.This version stayed unique as Fw 190 A-3/U-3".The description of the picture on the lower right says that to install the camera it was necessary to make a new fairing under the fuselage.If the cameras were too big for the Focke Wulf Fw 190 I doubt that they could install them into the Macchi MC200,202 and 205 without any modifications.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

[MDriskill]

Thanks for translating Giampiero!

 

I would note three points:

1. There WAS one small alteration to the Macchi fuselage - the opening for the camera lens. This allowed the camera to fit at the lowest possible position.

2. Assuming di Terlizzi's side-view drawing above is accurate, there was plenty of room behind the C.205's cockpit for the Zeiss Rb 30/50. Its fuselage was deeper and wider at this point than the rear section of the Fw 190. The Italian AGR 90 camera in the C.202, as discussed above, was likely smaller than the Zeiss.

3. The extra fairing under the Fw 190A-3 in the photo may be for the even longer Rb 75/30 camera, which apparently was not fitted to Macchis.

Edited August 11, 2022 by MDriskill

[GiampieroSilvestri]

What makes me doubt is why should something be installed without a door or a hatch to easily get to it?And as Graham Boak correctly wrote above getting to the camera from the cockpit or the radiator would be strange.

 

Saluti

 

Giampiero

Edited August 11, 2022 by GiampieroSilvestri