PO Mould's Hurricane L1842, No.1 Squadron, France 1939

[DougN]

Was not sure if I should post in Interwar, or here, but does anyone have any photos of this Hurricane?

I want to complete my Pacific Coast 1/32 Hurri in these markings, and picked up the Montex mask set for it. I also have the Classic Airframes 1/48 kit which includes these markings.

My dilema is that unfortunately, the "G" letter in the Montex set appears to be much too large compared to the scaled up same letter "G" from the Classic Airframes kit markings. Photos of other Battle of France Hurricanes (while from 73 squadron) show smaller single code letters more in line with the size of the letter of the Classic Airframes kit. A photo of this aircraft (or at least some of it's No 1 squadron mates) should help determine what the proper size is supposed to be.

Cheers,

Doug

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

Let me have a look, I've been picking up books etc on 1 Squadron for a while.

Obi-Jiff

[Chris Thomas]

My dilema is that unfortunately, the "G" letter in the Montex set appears to be much too large compared to the scaled up same letter "G" from the Classic Airframes kit markings. Photos of other Battle of France Hurricanes (while from 73 squadron) show smaller single code letters more in line with the size of the letter of the Classic Airframes kit. A photo of this aircraft (or at least some of it's No 1 squadron mates) should help determine what the proper size is supposed to be.

Not sure if this is a red herring or not but ... about 20 years ago I did the cover art for 'Fledgling Eagles' ... the subject was L1842 of 1 Sqn shortly after a mid-air collision with a French H-75A. The Hurricane was flown by Sgt A.V.Clowes (of JX-B with wasp fame). I was supplied with a photo of the rear fuselage of the crashed Hurricane which showed the code was 'T'. I know codes change in service but this was only just over 3 weeks after Mould's victory in this aircraft. I have never seen a photo of L1842 marked 'G'. The photo of 'T' was published in the 1980 edition on Paul Richey's 'Fighter Pilot' published by Janes. Richey later flew N2382 and L1679, both coded G.

CT

[DougN]

Thanks Obi-Jiff, I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with

That is very interesting Chris! Any chance you could scan and post the photo with the "T" code? I wonder if folks in the past have "assumed" the aircraft was coded "G" based on confusion with Richey's Hurri's? Or perhaps Mould was not flying L1842 when he shot down the Do17 considered the first RAF victory in France?

Cheers,

Doug

[Chris Thomas]

Thanks Obi-Jiff, I'll look forward to seeing what you come up with

Any chance you could scan and post the photo with the "T" code? Cheers,

I find the posting photos method a bit too irksome. If you PM me with an email address I'll send the scan; but be warned, it does not show the serial (which I guess comes from either 1 Sqn's ORB or an accident report.

CT

[DougN]

PM sent! No worries, every little bit helps Perhaps Obi-Jiff will come up with some more evidence either way.

Cheers,

Doug

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

My search has turned up no photos of L1842. I have a few photos of other 1 Sqn aeroplanes at that time, so I'll have a go at scanning.

Obi-Jiff

[DougN]

Cheers Obi-Jiff, I'll look forward to seeing them! Do you references contain loss/damage records or anything else that might shed some more light on the info Chris posted?

Cheers,

Doug

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

One of the books has some loss records, but I can't remember off-hand how comprehensive. I'll have to have a read!

Obi-Jiff

[DougN]

Thanks! Please post any photos you can of other No. 1 Squadron birds in France, as it may help with the question of "G" or "T" as well

Cheers,

Doug

[John Aero]

Thanks! Please post any photos you can of other No. 1 Squadron birds in France, as it may help with the question of "G" or "T" as well

Cheers,

Doug

The photo of Hanks a/c landing at Vassincourt in Twice vertical appears to have the standard size code letter (S in this case). As an aside we used to have "Frankenbergers machine gun" an MG 15 from the Pussy Palmer Dornier on the wall of the stairs leading to the Bosses office on 1Sqn, It could still be cocked and"fired" which I did every time I walked past it.

John

Edited August 26, 2010 by John Aero

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

Excellent!

Sorry for the delay in posting any more info. I'm hoping to get the scanner up and running over the bank holiday weekend.

Obi-Jiff

[DougN]

John, is photo of the port or starboard side, and is the "S" in front of, or behind, the roundel?

Obi-Jiff, thanks, I'll look forward to seeing them when you get the chance to scan them!

Right now, looks like I am leaning towards the "T" mentioned by Chris above, thinking that the "G" was actually Richey's aircraft, and somehow was confused with the aircraft Mould was actually flying. Records appear to indicate that L1842 was written off following a collision in which a French Hawk ran into its tail. This photo scanned and emailed to me by Chris would appear to be that aircraft:

Another, a bit clearer, with someone posing in front of it:

The "T" here appears in front of the roundel, and the serial appears to have been overpainted, which I understand was common practice at the time. Someone else mentioned that they were of the understanding that No. 1 Squadron put their letter in front of the roundel, and No. 73 squadron put their letter in back of it as a quick squadron recognition feature. Another interesting bit is the fuselage underside. The back section of the strake under the tail appears white, but the front section and the rest of the underside appear to be a dark colour - perhaps black? The starboard wing, gear door, and (at least the stbd side) radiator appear to be white (flaps appear down making that area dark).

One of these days I need to pick a subject that is easier to research Any other input, comments or suggestions welcomed!

Cheers lads!

Doug

[John Aero]

I think that they simply painted out the Sqn code and left the A/c code hence Port side at rear and Stbd in front of the roundel. There is a mention in either Richey's book or Twice V ref the Hurricanes being archied and "Bull" Halloran persuading HQ to allow them to paint the undersides Blue which led to the general adoption of the "underside blues". If so the Blue would have to have come from the French. I think the guy in front of "T" is Clowes.

John

Edited August 26, 2010 by John Aero

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

I think the guy in front of "T" is Clowes.

From memory, it looks like Clowes to me.

I should have a bit of time Saturday afternoon to do some scanning and posting, once I've watched the Belgian Grand Prix qualifying.

Obi-Jiff

[DougN]

As I understand it Clowes was piloting L1842 when the collision with the Hawk occured, so if it is him standing in front of "T", that would appear to confirm that L1842 was indeed coded "T", not "G".

Anyone have thoughts on the underside of the fuselage?

Thanks Obi-Jiff, looking forward to your scans!

Cheers,

Doug

Edited August 27, 2010 by DougN

[DougN]

Ok, after much more digging, found some additional circumstantial evidence that "T" is indeed the correct code for L1842.

We have another loss report, where Mould, flying a replacement Hurri, coded "T", took some fire from a Do17 while attacking it:

Type: Hurricane Mk 1

Serial number: P2649, JX-T

Operation: Patrol

Damaged: 10/05/1940

P/O W.O. Mould - unhurt

Took off from Vassincourt. Hit by return fire from Do 17 engaged east of rouvres 05.00 hrs. Returned with slight damage and punctured tyre. Aircraft damaged but repairable.

* from Fighter Command Losses, Vol 1, 1939-1941, Norman L.R. Franks

(If anyone has this book, could you please check for any other reports from the end of October to the end of November 1939?)

It would make sense that if his *regular* aircraft were coded "T", the replacement would recieve the same code letter.

Finally, when CO of No.185 squadron, Mould, who should likely have flown "A", still flew "T":

Date: 1st October 1941

Unit: No.185 Squadron

Type: Hawker Hurricane IIb

Serial. Z5265

Code: - T

Location: Missing north of Gozo, off Malta.

Pilot: Pilot Officer Peter William Olber Mould 33414 Age: 24 Killed

* from aircrew rememberance society webpage (www.aircrewremembrancesociety.com/raf1941/mould.html)

In Hurricanes over Malta by Brian Cull, there is a picture of Mould's Hurricane Z5265. Only the letter 'T' is painted on, not the 'GL'.

This evidence, in combination with the above photos of Clowes in front of the damaged Hurri, is enough to convince me that L1842 was coded "T".

Now if someone could shed some light on what is going on with the rear fuselage underside colors, I can start painting!

Cheers,

Doug

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

Right, finally scanned the photos for you. There weren't any others of 'T', apart from those already posted, but here are some from the same period (ish):

Bull Halahan (CO) and Johnny Walker in front of 'L', still apparently with black/white undersides. No date given.

Paul Richey's 'dear old G,' with visible underparts light-coloured, but probably black/white.

JX-L, again probably with black/white underparts.

Probably not much help, but the photos do seem to show a fairly uniform application when it comes to codes. The squadron seemed to take pride in its appearance!

Looking through 'In All Things First,' by Peter Caygill, the record of losses doesn't mention L1842, nor any aircraft lost after collision with a Hawk, so that's no help I'm afraid.

Still, there seems to be more info on 1 Sqn in France than in the Battle of Britain - you try finding any pictures of a squadron aeroplane from the BoB period that isn't Clowes' JX-B with the wasp on its nose!

Obi-Jiff

[DougN]

Thanks for the photos Obi-Jiff! They are definately helpful! Interestingly, the last photo of L appears to be before the rudder stripes and before the squadron codes were painted out and has the earlier blue/red fuselage roundel as well!

Cheers,

Doug

[Obi-Jiff Kenobi]

Yeah, that last one's a bit rare, isn't it?

Obi-Jiff

[DougN]

Well, finally finished off my interpretation of Mould's L1842! Thanks again to everyone who contributed info, I could not have done it without your help!

As discussed above, I went with "T" for the code, and as for the bottom of the fuselage, after looking at dozens and dozens of photos, I decided my best guess was silver dope with fluid staining causing it to appear dark. In many B/W photos, silver dope looks very dark, almost black, on the undersides of parked aircraft. There is a nice photo of a fabric winged Hurri in Yugoslavian markings on a test flight that is banking away from the camera. Even at this early point in it's life, there is significant fluid leaking (I assume oil) from the inner flap area and streaking back onto the fuselage, as well as the standard oil leaking from the cowl area. I have tried to replicate this on my model.

By all accounts Vassicourt was a pretty muddy place when No. 1 squadron was there, so I have added some mud splatters as well to the bottom and lower rudder and muddied up the wheels.

Here are a couple of snaps of my 1/32 PCM Hurri done up as the aircraft flown by PO Mould when he scored the first RAF victory over France on Oct 30, 1939:

I'll post the whole lot (with a link back to this thread) in Ready for Inspection as well

Cheers!

Doug