Hurricane IIA Z2585 , Soviet "42"

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

I know this is against the proper netiquette but I comment here thread in another forum.

Question is about the colours of the Soviet Hurricane Z2585, side number ”42”. The thread is

” Help with Hurricane "white 42" colours ” at the Soviet Warplanes site ( http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/ )

forum, see:

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php...amp;topic=836.0

My comments are:

The Hurricane was earlier in 316 sqn, RAF (Polish). You can see the overpainted Polish insignia below the middle exhaust even on the internet photos.

In 316 sqn Z2585 had code ”X” and the pale areas are from overpainting the code.

Late 1941 and early 1942 Finnish air observation related documents from Northern region mention several times Hurricanes observed still wearing RAF markings (and colours too?). It suggests that repainting on Soviet side was minimal at least on that sector of front. And ”42” was found in that same general area.

(RAF markings were followed keenly because of the political side. UK had declared war against Finland December 6th, 1941 and it was feared that Brits would participate war also at the Finno-Soviet frontline.)

My guesses of Z2585 / ”42” colours are:

Soviets have painted only their own markings. Rest was done in UK by Maintenance Units or so using British colours. I think the pale area over the former code ”X” is Dark or perhaps Light Brown. The similar pale area under tailplane conforms to Tuck’s DT-A pattern at least*. Rest of fuselage markings is overpainted with Dark Green disrupting the standard Dark Brown ”band” on port side. Dark Green – if it is that – overpainting blends well with the rest of the camouflage. But like I said, this is only my guess. Nothing more.

Original photos of this plane can also be found in a FinnAF field depot war diary. Those offer nothing above the photos seen on the linked thread.

Cheers,

Kari

*The first Internet source for the pattern I found was this Revell instruction: http://manuals.hobbico.com/rvl/80-0018.pdf

[Edgar]

The yellow leading edge strip would seem to put it squarely into the post-8/41 colour changes, which would make it green/ocean (aka "mixed") grey over medium sea grey, possibly with all of the original ocean grey areas overpainted by a Russian green, except for the area under the "42." Others, of course, might feel differently, but, if that Hurricane had gone to an M.U., before shipping, I can't see them painting the l/e, and leaving the rest in green/brown/sky.

Edgar

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Thanks for the interest. Very dark Mixed Gray and Dark Green. And code letter "X" and area under tail painted with regular Ocean Grey. Why not? That would mean Mixed Gray and Ocean Grey were not the same in real life, though. My original idea of brown/green comes especially from the Finnish photos of FinnAF Lysanders taken in similar conditions (snow, lighting) where demarcations of the RAF camouflage (Dark Green&Brown) are very difficult or impossible to see.

In any case my hunch is that very little repainting was done in Soviet Union on Hurricanes during that time in the North. No resources, no facilities. At some point even ammunition for the .303s was scarce, refer to the case of 152 IAP Hurricane which collided with FinnAF Morane early December 1941.

But I have no pony in this race, like the saying goes.

Cheers,

Kari

Edited June 7, 2010 by Kari Lumppio

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

Small update for the Hurricane 42 / Z2585.

Researcher Pentti Manninen authored article of the captured Soviet Hurricanes in his magazine Suomen ilmailuhistoriallinen lehti ,issue 1/1994 ( http://www.kolumbus.fi/SIL/ , http://www.kolumbus.fi/SIL/1994/1994.html ). In the article he writes that Hurricane Z2858 was sent to Soviet Union December 6th, 1941. AFAIK this data comes from A/C movement card via Pentti's research colleague. The Hurricane was evacuated by Kenttälentovarikko 3 (Field Air Depot 3) which was notified about the plane February 16th, 1942 according the article.

Continued research by Pentti and his colleagues has also brought copies of the 316 sqn ORB documents including the flight logs. I have very poor digital images of (only) the pages which do include flights of Z2585. I do not know if that is all there is, though. With these limitations and if my eyes do not deceive me Z2858 flew it's first flight with 316 sqn in June 25th, 1941, an "Air Test" flight. Last flight with 316 sqn seems to have been in October 10th, 1941. 316 ORB says Spitfire training was started in October 14th, 1941. What is of interest regarding repainting is that Z2585 seems to have a pause from flying between August 17th to September 24th, 1941.

Kenttälentovarikko 3 War Diary has photos of the Z2585 evacuation. The diary is held at Kansallisarkisto, Sörnäinen (ex- Military Archive), archive code Spk 14425. The text part is digitized ( http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=2728969 ) but photos not. The photos can be seen through the last text page paper (page 74). But I can help here with photos taken by me in June 2007.

Here is the album page of Z2858 evacuation. I took better resolution pictures using a stative, the arrangement also shown. The cell phone is there for weight purposes only.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_37VdbHCEOKU/TBhy9clO...00/IMGP3910.JPG

Here is somewhat lowered resolution photo showing the whole port side of fuselage. I played with the program MS Paint and cut part of the light patch near the number "42" and patched is under the cockpit. Actually there is not that much tonal difference after all!

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_37VdbHCEOKU/TBhy9F4A...20LH%20side.jpg

Could it be the gloss-matt difference which would explain the tonal differences with the photos taken from different angles? In the port side fuselage photo the area under tailpalne doesn't seem to be lighter at all. At least it does not match the tone under number "42".

It is also interesting that there is no match in available Soviet loss lists for Z2585. One possible explanation besides uncomplete records is that Z2585 was on transfer flight to it's unit and not recorded in any combat unit losses. AFAIK there is no Finnish fighter nor AAA claim matching for this Hurricane.

After all this pondering I have no firm opinion of the 42 / Z2585colours any more. Perhaps someone else has new ideas?

Cheers,

Kari

[Antoine]

Thanks, Kari, very interesting.

The basic archive web page is quite difficult to search when you don't speak Finn language.

[Antoine]

Maybe you can provide us the specific finn names for the main aircrafts in service at the time, so as to ease search?

I can't get more than three pics with the usual names.

[Troy Smith]

Hello!

I know this is against the proper netiquette but I comment here thread in another forum.

Late 1941 and early 1942 Finnish air observation related documents from Northern region mention several times Hurricanes observed still wearing RAF markings (and colours too?). It suggests that repainting on Soviet side was minimal at least on that sector of front. And ”42” was found in that same general area.

(RAF markings were followed keenly because of the political side. UK had declared war against Finland December 6th, 1941 and it was feared that Brits would participate war also at the Finno-Soviet frontline.)

My guesses of Z2585 / ”42” colours are:

Soviets have painted only their own markings. Rest was done in UK by Maintenance Units or so using British colours. I think the pale area over the former code ”X” is Dark or perhaps Light Brown. The similar pale area under tailplane conforms to Tuck’s DT-A pattern at least*. Rest of fuselage markings is overpainted with Dark Green disrupting the standard Dark Brown ”band” on port side. Dark Green – if it is that – overpainting blends well with the rest of the camouflage. But like I said, this is only my guess. Nothing more.

Original photos of this plane can also be found in a FinnAF field depot war diary. Those offer nothing above the photos seen on the linked thread.

Cheers,

Kari

*The first Internet source for the pattern I found was this Revell instruction: http://manuals.hobbico.com/rvl/80-0018.pdf

Hi Kari

OK, first, regading Finn observations of RAF marked Hurricanes in the Northern region, bear in mind that 151 wings had been based in Murmansk, they could be observations of 151 wing , or plans left behind that were not repainted.

I think the plane has Day Fighter Scheme as the basic pattern. Dark earth goes with sky undersides, Temperate Land Scheme and the undersides do not match the sky band, note that sky photographed against snow usually appera near white, and the undersides are darker.

What I can't say is how much of the fuselage is VVS repainting, and how much British overpainting of existing markings.

Not much, if any is my inclination. What is seen a plane extensively repaited at an RAF MU before delivery, remember this was a ex-RAF airframe in Day Fighter Scheme colours.

[Dark Green/Ocean Grey upperside medium sea grey underside, sky spinner and band, yellow leading edges]

OK, looking specifically at the top image

is the 'shine' actaully a reflected light effect combined with an ice film? Remember in the North the sun much lower on the horizon, especially in winter!

At the right angle snow will reflect up enough light that the upper fusleage is in a slight shadow, note this is a stright line at the same place there is a reinforced part of the fabric covering on the fusleage.

this 'angle' is clearly shown here, running thorugh the top of the serial, the pic supersizes

see here

http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/mark_hayward/hurricane_iia/images/hurricane_iia_03_of_31.jpg

and

http://data3.primeportal.net/hangar/mark_hayward/hurricane_iia/images/hurricane_iia_07_of_31.jpg

Another factor, the shadow if the tail planes, remember, low sun angle, and what looks an overcast day to really mess with light diffusion.

Note the shiny wing front above the gun ports. Ice film? The prop was still turning [broken prop blades] when this plane w hit the snow, that and the skidding being enough to melt some now, to wet the wing/fuselage, which would then freeze quickly.

What I can't work out is why there are paler patches on the rear fusleage, behind the '42' on the port sde, and ahead of the star/behind cockpit on the starboard side.

Unless these are just the remains of mixed grey, and the rest is fresh ocean grey, and much of the tail got repainted , from repairs? the plane had been in operational service before being passed onto the VVS.

I mention this as despite it being commonly shown in profiles I find very little evidence in photos for this, but there is evidence that the British painted over RAF markings and applied red stars BEFORE delivery. Famous pics of VB's at Kuban in Iran, before delivery, in Red Stars 4 there is a sequence showiing the roundels being overpainted, and red stars applied with black outlines, also on the upperwings.

see here for planes after repainting

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/articles/spit/

And there are a fair few pics of VVS Hurricanes with upperwing stars, remember this was not a standard marking location in the VVS.

I think the Authenic decals profiles in this case are best ignored.

I'll ponder more on this, as writing this has aleady taken too long

HTH

T