roncl

Great information everyone! Does anyone have any pictures or a diagram showing the compartment where the spent cases and links were collected? Thanks. And Happy New Year everyone!

Great clarification Jari! I noticed the incorrect comments above, but thought I would let someone who actually worked on the CF-104 M61 cannon clarify and correct those comments. Thanks. Ron

Thanks TBC. Great picture! And thanks JayBee! That is an awesome video showing the loading of the 20 mm cannon! Much appreciated!

Thanks Finn. Great information! I am still working on trying to attach some pictures. The cannon feed arrangement was obviously a reliable system, I am just trying to fully understand it based on the pictures I have seen. The pilots I have spoken with who flew 104s and fired the cannon loved it. I sent you a PM with a couple more questions. Thanks.

TBC - Thanks for the excellent picture out of Dave Bashaw’s book. Finn - Thanks for the excellent description of how to load the ammo can. Your memory seems very good! And that is an excellent cutaway drawing that you posted. So, there are three compartments making up the large ammo can, and you only fill up a portion of each of the three compartments. I have seen a couple of pictures showing the top lids that I will post. One shows the guide for the belt to the chute down to the gun, while the other is the outside lid that as you said opens from right to left. I will post the pictures that I have found. How did you connect and lay down the ammo belts between the three compartments of the ammo can so that the ammunition belt continued to feed freely without getting jammed up? Thanks again everyone for your input! Ron

Thanks Rob! That’s an interesting picture! It sure looks like loading the ammo can was definitely a two man job!

Thanks Rob! That’s an interesting picture! It sure looks like loading the ammo can was definitely a two man job!

Thanks Andre and Rob! Much appreciated! Yes, the ammo can is behind the pilot and behind the electronics equipment. I am hoping to find some pictures showing the ammo can with the lid open so you can see the rounds loaded in the can (or where they go), and the rounds on the top of the can ready to be fed to the cannon. Thanks again gents!

Does anyone have any detailed pictures or drawings of the ammo can used for the M61 Vulcan cannon on the F-104 Starfighter? I would be interested is seeing how the shells are loaded in the can, and how the shells are fed to the cannon, as well as where the expended cases and links are collected under the gun. Any pictures, drawings or information that could be provided would be greatly appreciated! Thank you.

Thanks Ewen. That makes sense! I never really payed much attention to the Spitfires and Seafires that were fitted with both guns and cameras. They played an important role!

Excellent information gents. I have found it fascinating to read the information that has been posted here. I am a bit confused about how many cameras were fitted to the FR llC and the LR III Seafire. I had thought there was only one camera in the fuselage behind the pilot. Where was the second camera fitted in these aircraft? And on related topic, where was the camera or cameras fitted on the F6F Hellcat? Thanks in advance everyone! roncl

Hi Everyone, Thanks for the outstanding information. I am learning a lot about British Carrier Operations that I never knew! Regarding the installation of the long barrel Hispano cannon (Mk ll) vs the short barrel Hispano (Mk V) in the Seafire wing, the front mounting for the two cannons was noticeably different. As mentioned by Skyhawk in Post #31 and Ewen in Post # 39, based on the angle of the picture or video, it can be difficult to determine the length of the cannon fairing. However, as mentioned by Tomas in Post #32, the different front mountings for the two cannons clearly identifies (in most cases) which cannon had been installed. The Mk ll cannon extended 36.25 inches from the front of the wing. The front mounting for the cannon was 13.89 inches long, while the fairing for the cannon barrel was 20.32 inches long. The actual barrel extended another 2.04 inches beyond the end of the fairing. These measurements are from the outstanding book “Spitfire IX and XVI: Engineered” by Paul Monforton. The pictures, drawings and level of detail are amazing. I strongly recommend it. The Mk V cannon extended 24.25 inches (12 inches shorter) from the front of the wing, and the front mounting for the Mk V cannon was much shorter (I don’t have exact measurements but it is probably in the order of 3.5 - 4.5 inches or maybe a bit longer). The recoil spring was shorter and was located right up against the front mounting, and the barrel extended the rest of the distance. The Mk ll cannon, by comparison, had a recoil spring that was significantly longer and can be seen extending further down the barrel compared to the Mk V. I am attaching some pictures that show the cannon barrel of the Mk ll cannon with the barrel fairing removed. You can clearly see that the front mounting for the Mk ll cannon and the recoil spring is significantly longer. Pictures showing Seafires with the cannon fairing for the Mk ll cannon removed are tougher to find, and I have included a picture of a Mk IX Spitfire with the fairing removed to show the detail. The Mk II cannon mounting for the Spit Mk IX and the Seafire IIc and III would have been the same. I am also attaching a couple more pictures showing the Mk V cannon with the fairing removed. Despite the above differences between the cannon mountings for the Mk ll and Mk V cannons, it can still be difficult to determine which cannon is mounted on the aircraft in some pictures due to the angle of the picture or video. However, I am quite certain that the pictures I have posted above of Seafire 129 being pushed off the deck show Mk V cannons fitted. I am surprised at the number of pictures I have seen with the fairing removed from the Mk V cannon. It seems like it might have been a fairly common practice to fly without the fairing. It doesn't make sense to me as the fairing was designed to protect the barrel and improve aerodynamics. Seafire lll (or Seafire llc) with Mk ll cannon. Note longer front mounting. The cannon and fairings seemed to be damaged regularly by the barrier set up. Roncl Spitfire IX with Mk ll cannon and fairings off. Mk ll cannon front mounting on Spitfire. Mike Crosley in Seafire lll. Mk V cannons with fairing off. Mk ll cannon front mounting on Spitfire. Mk V cannons on Seafire 115. Mike Crosley? Fairings off. Seafire with Mk V cannon. Fairing off. Seafire llc with Mk ll cannon. Note longer front mounting and dislodged fairing. Outboard cannon stub removed post manufacture?

A couple more pictures of Seafires showing both the long barrel Mk ll cannon and the shorter barrel Mk V cannon. The difference in barrel length is quite noticeable. The cannon barrels and fairings, not to mention the whole aircraft, definitely took some abuse when the aircraft hit the barrier wires. Don't know anything about this picture, but definitely a Seafire lll with Mk V cannons and no fairings on the guns. The Seafire on the left has the long barrel Mk ll cannons, while the one on the right does not have a fairing on its Mk V cannon barrel. I have seen a picture of Mike Crosley sitting in Seafire lll NN621,1115/N and it appears as if there are no fairings on the Mk V cannons. I wonder if they flew the aircraft without the fairings on occasion.

Ok, I will try now. Attached are some screen shots from the above video links. You can see both long barrel and short barrel fairings on the cannon barrels of the various Seafire lll's. The barrel fairings certainly took some abuse when the aircraft crashed. The fairings are completely off the Mk V cannons in the first and fifth pictures. .

Here are some screen shots from the above videos. You can see both the long barrel and short barrel cannons installed in these Seafire lll's. It appears to me as if the Mk V cannon was used operationally in WWII. Hmm, having trouble posting pictures. Stay tuned. Thanks. Ron

Hi Everyone, Further to my post above, I have found a number of videos that certainly appear to show Seafire llll’s with the Mk V shorter barrel cannon installed. The video’s also appear to show the Seafires flying in a WWll operational environment. However, given that there are no dates to reference when the videos were taken, it will be difficult to establish a specific date when the operations were filmed. Links to three videos that contain excellent Seafire footage are provided below. 1) Flight Deck of British Aircraft (1945) A significant amount of Seafire carrier operations are contained in this video, including some rough landings and the pushing off the deck of a written off Seafire lll. There is film of both long barrel and short barrel Seafire lll's in the video. In the footage of the Seafire lll being pushed off the deck at the 9:40 mark, it is clear that the cannons installed in the wings are the short barrel Mk V cannons. 2) Rest and Repair at Leyte, 1945 This video has some great footage of both long and short barrelled Seafires being loaded off and onto the carrier deck. I will post some screen shots highlighting the short and long barrels in my next post. 3) Supermarine Seafire in Colour This video has some great footage Seafire lll's taking off the carrier. Pausing the video confirms that the short barrel Mk V cannons are fitted to these Seafires. I will post some screen shots that will provide a more detail. From what I can tell, these videos would seem to indicate that the Mk V cannon was used operationally during WWll in the Pacific Theatre. Ron

One item I also meant to mention was the modification to the Seafire wing that took place with the development of the folding wing of the Seafire lll. In an effort to reduce weight and drag, the outboard cannon stub was removed from the outboard cannon bay. This modification resulted in an increase of 5 mph to the fighter’s top speed.

Hi Everyone, I am really enjoying reading the comments and responses to my question about the use of the Mk V cannon on the Seafire lll. My apologies for taking so long to jump back in. I have had a busy weekend. In response to Ewen's question regarding my research, I have found that the Mk V cannon was not used on any operational Spitfires during WWII. The Mk V cannon was only installed on some of the late model Mk 24 Spitfires. The Mk ll Hispano cannon was the standard 20mm cannon used on all Spitfires and a large number of Seafires. With the introduction of the Seafire lll, and the ongoing desire to reduce weight, the Mk V cannon began appearing on later models of this variant. Compared to the Mk ll Hispano, the Mk V had a higher rate of fire (750 rpm vs 650 rpm), was 12 inches shorter and weighed 25 pounds less. I have seen some videos of Seafire lll's in action that seem to show the Mk V cannon fitted. I have some screen shots that I will post shortly that certainly appear to show Seafires with the shorter cannon barrels. However, based on the angle of the picture or video, it is sometimes difficult to tell. Regarding the use of the Mk ll cannon on the Spitfire, the introduction of the E wing resulted in a .50 browning being fitted in the inboard gun bay (where the Hispano had previously been located) and the cannon was moved to the outboard cannon bay. This resulted in the cannon being moved approximately six inches further back and a correspondingly shorter cannon fairing. I had initially thought that maybe the Mk V cannon had also been fitted to the E wing, but I have found no information to support this. The Mk V cannon did not appear on the Spitfire until the Mk 24 Spitfire variant was produced. I have some pictures showing the long and short cannon fairings fitted to Seafire lll's and will post them in the next day or so. One other significant bit of misinformation I have come across during this search is the reference in many books (including Morgan/Shacklady) to Martin Baker making belt feed mechanisms to replace the 60 round ammunition drum for the Hispano cannon. The successful belt feed mechanism for the Hispano was based on the French Chatellerault design, and once production on this feed system was underway, the Hispano cannon became an outstanding weapon. Most of the belt feed mechanisms were built by the Molins Machine Company. Martin Baker never produced any belt feed mechanisms that were used during the war. I will post some pictures in days ahead. roncl

Thanks for the great information everyone! Very much appreciated! I have seen drawings of the Mk V cannon installed in the Mk XV Seafire, but have not seen any drawings showing the Mk V cannon installed in the Seafire lll. Tomas, is there any chance you could post a picture of the Mk V cannon in the Seafire III in this thread? The installation of the Mk V cannon in the Seafire lll would make this variant of the Spitfire/Seafire the only one to use the Mk V cannon in World War II. All other Spitfires used the Mk II Hispano cannons during the war. I believe the only other aircraft to use the Mk V cannon during the war was the Hawker Tempest. All other Spitfire/Seafire variants were fitted with the Mk V cannon postwar. Thanks again. Roncl

I have read that later versions of the Seafire lll LF were equipped with the faster firing, lighter weight and shorter barrel Mk V 20mm cannon in place of the heavier long barrel Mk II 20mm cannon. The Mk V cannon was 12 inches shorter than the Mk II cannon, and the cannon fairing covering the barrel was noticeably shorter than the fairing covering the Mk II cannon barrel. Does anyone know when the Mk V cannons were introduced on the Seafire lll and how many Seafire lll’s might have used the Mk V cannon? Finally, does anyone have any good pictures or drawings showing the Mk V cannon installed in the wings of the Seafire lll? Thank you.

Ewen and Grey, Thanks very much for the outstanding information! Ewen, I really appreciate you taking the time to provide me with such a detailed explanation of how the catapult system worked for the Seafire. That must have taken a fair bit of time. You have certainly answered the questions I had about the catapult system that was used for the Seafire. Grey, thank you very much for posting the picture showing the Seafire fuselage construction. The detail is excellent, and provides great visual information to go with Ewen's excellent verbal description. Thanks to everyone (Graham, 72modeler, Ewen and Grey) for taking the time to answer my questions and for providing such excellent information. I certainly understand how the process worked now!

Thanks Graham and 72Modeler. I really appreciate the information. I have a better idea now, but still don’t quite fully understand how the catapult system worked on the Seafire. It sounds like the procedure for launching the Seafire changed during the war. I look forward to seeing any additional information that might be provided. Thanks again.

Does anyone have any drawings or pictures showing detail of the catapult spools that were used on the Seafire lb and llc? Were there two spools or four? Finally, does anyone have any drawings or illustrations showing how the Seafire was connected to the catapult system and where the cables and other items were attached to the aircraft? I gather the Seafire lll did not use a catapult. Can anyone confirm this? Thanks in advance. Ron

Hi Chris, I have a request in at my library to get a copy via interlibrary loan. I use the library almost all of the time. Christopher and your books on the 2nd TAF are outstanding! I own a couple of them. Thanks. roncl

Does anyone have a copy of the book 2nd Tactical Air Force Vol. 4 by Christopher Shores? Apparently, there are two rare pictures of Johnnie Johnson's Spitfire MK392 in it, as well as some interesting information on the e-wing Spitfire and its use with the 2nd TAF. If anyone could post these pages/information or pictures, I would really appreciate it. Thanks. roncl