detail is everything

MKIIc MB244 6Q 899 NAS There is a current topic looking at Seafire Ibs fitted with Vokes tropical filters and it drew my mind to the subject of IIcs fitted with the same. Back in March 2002, Paul Lucas published a Seafire WWII camouflage article in Scale Aircraft Modelling, accompanied by some artwork to illustrate typical camouflage and markings. In June 2009, he re-visited the subject in Model Aircraft Monthly. In both articles, MKIIc MB244 6Q, the subject of a rare WWII colour photograph of 899 NAS Seafires on HMS Indomitable in March 1943 at Scapa Flow (evidence item 1 in the list below), was depicted with no Vokes filter. Another photo apparently taken shortly afterwards by the same photographer shows other airframes without Vokes filters present on the same flight deck as MB244? goes down on the lift (evidence item 1 in the list below). 6K could be MB198 and 6L is MB200 (see hanger photograph). Note what appears to be artwork below the cockpit of the aircraft on the lift. I let it go the first time, but after the second time, I wrote in, pointing out the photographic evidence. My letter and a revised profile was duly published by the magazine in the MAM August 2009 letters page. Despite the correction, the erroneous profile was repeated in the Aviation Workshop publication 'On Target 5 - Supermarine Seafire Mk. Ib - Mk. 47' by Steve Freeman 2004 (presumably based on Pauls SAM article of 2002) and more recently 'Spitfire Revisited' by Trevor Snowden 2012 (which is a great shame as it is a very detailed analysis of spitfire/seafire camouflage and markings). You couldn't argue that the erroneous profiles of MB244 6Q were as it would have looked like during Operation Husky as the airframe was lost in May when it spun into the Firth of Clyde i.e. before the carrier and its squadrons left the UK. If they had used MB200 6L to illustrate their information, they would have both been fine. It appears that 899NAS had several airframes with Vokes filters (which would have incurred a weight and drag penalty) at Scapa Flow prior to the carrier and its squadrons leaving for the Mediterranean and the invasion of Sicily (Operation Husky). It looks as though by the time of Operation Husky in July, the Vokes filters (or the aircraft fitted with them) were gone or very rare so I assume the squadron was in the process of replacing the filters in March? I wondered if those Indomitable Seafires seen with blue (as opposed to the normal TSS Sky) undernose panels were airframes which had had their Vokes filters removed in the field and replacement panels from RAF stocks used? (would assume the oil tank be in the colour it was originally painted in, within the Vokes filter aerodynamic firing? MKIIc MB195 6S 899 NAS One of the photos I referred to as proof that there were MKIIcs with Vokes filters fitted, present at the time MB244 was photographed, was a photo of two pilots posing by the cockpit of a Seafire with said filter and squadron number 6. It also had a nice bit of artwork under the windscreen (evidence item 2 in the list below). A photograph of the same aircraft with a pilot climbing in to the cockpit, appeared in Modellers Datafile 3 Merlin Seafires (evidence item 3 in the list below). Another from the series is Further photos can be seen in the Fleet Air Arm Legends series No. 1 Supermarine Seafire (evidence item 7 in the list below). However the identity of this particular aircraft would remain a mystery until I happened to be looking at an article about Seafire development on the Armoured Aircraft Carriers web site and I looked at the imbedded Pate Newsreel 'Presenting Seafires 1943’ (evidence item 4 in the list below) which can be viewed on You Tube. Low and behold this footage showed a pilot getting into and out of the cockpit of the very same aircraft (clearly the same aircraft by position and artwork). The serial, squadron number and aircraft letter is shown to be MB195 6S as the pilot walks along the fuselage to climb up into and later, climbs out of the cockpit. https://youtu.be/f-BuAkwB5hI?t=8 and https://youtu.be/f-BuAkwB5hI?t=46 I then noticed a further photograph of this aircraft in From the Cockpit Series No. 13 Seafire (evidence item 6 in the list below), which confirms the serial and code. Furthermore, another photo in an article about Indomitable on the Armoured Aircraft Carriers web site (evidence item 5 in the list below) shows MB195 on Indomitable’s lift confirming the serial and squadron code and extent of upper camouflage on side of the Vokes filter. Evidence table 1 Warpaint Series No. 72 Merlin Seafire – cover June 2009 Model Aircraft Monthly – between p36 and 37 Seafire book by David Brown – cover Colour photo of MB244 –shows clearly the Vokes filter with camouflage running down the side of the filter. Another photo taken a minute or so later by the same photographer shows other unidentified airframes without Vokes filters present on the flight deck as MB244 goes down on the lift 2 From the Cockpit Series No. 13 Seafire –p26 Also Seafire book by David Brown – photo 29 b/w Photograph MB195 - pilots posing by cockpit taken at the same time as the Pate News footage –shows a clear image of the artwork – looks like a black and white cat next to something, possibly a white mouse or cheese? Below is some ones rendition of the artwork 3 Modellers Datafile 3 Merlin Seafires – p37 b/w Photograph MB195 pilot climbing into cockpit, taken at the same time as the Pate News footage was being filmed or possibly a still taken from it 4 Pate News –‘ Presenting Seafires 1943’ also Armoured Carriers website on Seafire development Footage between 7-13 seconds and between 44-51 seconds b/w footage MB195 pilot getting into and out of cockpit. Serial and squadron code shown as pilot walks up to climb up into and later, climb out of the cockpit. 5 Armoured Carriers website Indomitable page b/w Photograph MB195 starboard side profile on lift confirms Serial and squadron code and extent of upper camouflage on side of Vokes filter. 6 From the Cockpit Series No. 13 Seafire –p24/25 b/w Photograph MB195 being pushed forward- confirms Serial and aircraft identifier letter 7 Fleet Air Arm Legends series No. 1 Supermarine Seafire – p28-29 b/w Photograph MB195 - pilots posing by cockpit taken at the same time as the Pate News footage – one photo taken from in front of the wing, though the pilots hide most of the Vokes filter. 8 Photo of blue nose Seafire Colour photo

To this I add my similar query Yet to have an answer about these extended lower fairings. Perhaps linked to the RN catapult (accelerator?) fit?

Seems nice and stable to me😀

Good spot! A change in firewall arrangement necessitating the introduction of the blistered panel, as an incremental change would explain why the F4F-3A had the blistered panels, despite not having an intercooler and being built several months before the introduction of the -86 engined F4F-3. Basically the new firewall arrangement and associated blister was introduced by the F4F-3A. However, this picture causes me a problem. If we are saying the relevant nose panels were of different dimensions, depending on which firewall arrangement was used, this picture would appear to show some unblistered panels on machines with the later firewall arrangement (I can't see a difference between the machines, can you?) If you ignore the differing dimensions issue, the fact that some very early AM#### serial Martlet IIs didn't have the blistered panel, despite being completed with folding wings after the F4F-3As, can be explained away by the fact that the very earliest fuselages were probably built from components which originate from December 1940, before the F4F-3As were built between March and May 1941. This is because construction of the Martlet II was was stopped after the first 10 machines were built and completed as fixed wing Martlet III(A)s. Already delivered components would have been stored, ready for when production of the remaining 90 machines would have resumed between August and December 1941, once the folding wings were ready to be fitted. Lots of assumptions but I'm guessing the stored components were for the earlier firewall arrangement and then, as the Martlet II build continued, the delivered components would have incorporated the by now new firewall arrangement. However the photo above doesn't show a mix of early or revised firewall arrangements, so my hypothesis is flawed unless someone can explain away the above photo. One last thought. Was the blister on -90 engined machines, slightly smaller than on -86 engined machines? A comparable photo of an F4F-3A machine (with original panels) would quickly sort that query out. You would have to be certain that the F4F-3A machine had its original blistered panels as they may have been replaced ,whilst in service or when being restored, by -86 engine blistered panels which I think would fit given they shared the same revised firewall arrangement.

Well the similar topic for the Hurricane is on page 84 and others are even longer, so there's plenty of flogging left in this one 😀

Without seeing the BuNo I can't be sure, but it has all the features of a F4F-3A Carburettor air scoop on cowling top Single cooling flap Reflector gunsight Small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling Braced windscreen later pneumatic tail wheel It could be a F4F-3 1st group machine which has received mods, but I doubt it. Such a machine, when manufactured would not have featured a Reflector gunsight (if from first production batch) Small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling Braced windscreen later pneumatic tail wheel

@ClaudioNSo.....what is interesting here is that batch of 19 F4F-3s Bu. Nos. 3856-3874. When they were manufactured (in relation to the F4F-3As) and what engine did they have. Manufacture sequence Having looked at the Bu. Nos., construction numbers and variant features, I concluded in my post of October 5 above, the following sequence of manufacture Variant Construction number BuNo Acceptance months Engine F4F-3 1st group 561 - 610 (49) 1848 to 1896 Nov 1940 to Feb 1941 P&W R-1830-76 Twin Wasp 616 - 642 (27) 2512 to 2538 F4F-3 2nd group 738 - 756 (19) 3856 to 3874 May 41(built Feb/Mar 41?) P&W R-1830-76 Twin Wasp F4F-3A Martlet III(B) 757 - 786 (30) 3875 to 3904 Mar 41 P&W R-1830-90 Twin Wasp F4F-3A USN 787 - 851 (65) 3905 to 3969 Apr to May 41 F4F-3 3rd group 852 - 939 (88) 3970 to 4057 Jun to Sep 41 P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp You are saying the sequence should be Variant Construction number BuNo Production months Engine F4F-3 1st group 561 - 610 (49) 1848 to 1896 up to end Feb 1941 P&W R-1830-76 Twin Wasp 616 - 642 (27) 2512 to 2538 F4F-3 2nd group 738 - 756 (19) 3856 to 3874 May 41(built Feb/Mar 41?) P&W R-1830-76 Twin Wasp F4F-3A Martlet III(B) 757 - 786 (30) 3875 to 3904 March to May 41 P&W R-1830-90 Twin Wasp F4F-3A USN 787 - 851 (65) 3905 to 3969 F4F-3 2nd group 738 - 756 (19) 3856 to 3874 Jun to Sep 41 P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp F4F-3 3rd group 852 - 939 (88) 3970 to 4057 Jun to Sep 41 P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp Quite a difference with regard to timing for that 2nd group of 19 F4F-3s Variant features wise, this is a better sequence with regard to the cowl lip carb air scoop (it changing to an internal air scoop on the 2nd and 3rd F4F-3 groups). Take out the F4F-3As and it also works for the intercooler duct clearance fairing on the nose panel between wing and cowl (it being introduced with the 3rd F4F-3 group and its redesigned intercooler). But this fairing inexplicably appears on the F4F-3As way before the the 3rd F4F-3 group and despite having no intercooler. If it is a new production standard panel, it should also appear on machines from the 2nd F4F-3 group. But it doesn't. One possibility is that the P&W R-1830-90 engine required the clearance fairing for a reason the 2nd F4F-3 group didn't, and the 3rd F4F-3 group adopted the F4F-3A panel to accommodate the re-designed intercooler. However, no evidence has been put forward for this and I don't see why the -90 engine would need it. Another possibility is the the 2nd F4F-3 group just used a batch of old leftover nose panels which didn't feature the clearance fairing. It was a very small production batch of 19 machines using the original intercooler which didn't required the modified panel. But again, no evidence to suggest this. R Leonard's post Mr Leonard states the following February 41: F-4F-3A BuNos 3905-3969 delivered to AirBatFor in San Diego for assignment. By end March: F4F-3 (2nd group) BuNos 3864-3874 and (3rd group) 3994-4017 were likewise delivered to AirBatFor San Diego for assignment. By June 41 F4F-3 (3rd group) BuNos 3982-3992 remained there but 3993-4017 went back east to VMF-1. By June 41: AirBatFor is also starting to see arrivals of F4F-4 types BuNos 5070-5112 and 5170-5236 for future assignment. By June 41: All F4F-3As as delivered from AirBatFor with no notations regarding BuNos July 41: AirBatFor is not showing any -3s nor -3As BuNos this month (though that does not mean they don’t have any) and no changes to its -4 inventory. This certainly suggests that the 2nd and 3rd groups of F4F-3s were manufactured (or at least delivered) after the F4F-3As. However, could it not be the case that delivery of the 2nd group of F4F-3s to AirBatFor was delayed (perhaps because of engine shortages or continued engine overheating/reliability problems) until after the F4F-3As. The engine used by the 2nd group of F4F-3s When I first set out the features of the various F4F-3 production groups here, I used Detail and Scale Vol 7 as my primary reference source which stated that the 2nd group of 19 used the -86 engine. This was challenged here and I responded here. After further discussion here, I concluded that the 2nd F4F-3 group of 19, were powered by the -76 engine and not as Detail and Scale Vol 7 stated the -86 engine. Also that they were produced before the F4F-3As. As discussed above the lack of intercooler clearance fairings on these machines, seem to reinforce that theory. You now appear to be saying that they were powered by the -86 and they were manufactured after the F4F-3As.

It is definitely not correct for an FM-2. It is the equivalent of spraying a MK. XIV Spitfire to look like a Battle of Britain machine, except that they have the camouflage (Temperate Land Scheme) wrong. Please see I won't mention the post war Grumman Avenger ECM.6 in the FAA Museum being painted up in the markings of a wartime MK. I or II.. Just as wrong

No. Definitely not the right scheme. I saw the other day that someone else has just sprayed their FM-2 in the Mid Stone over Azure Blue colours of an 805NAS Martlet III! Wrong in so many ways!

So I've looked at the previously provided construction numbers, BuNo's and acceptance dates for the production of F4Fs by Grumman. When you look at the US specific variants (F4F-3 and F4F-4), there is a fairly smooth evolutionary process through the production batches. You start off with the F4F-3 1st group P&W R-1830-76 Twin Wasp, cowling lip carb air scoop, single cooling flap, original unbraced windscreen and non-folding 4 gun wing. With the F4F-3 2nd group, the interim and less effective internal carb air scoop and braced windscreen are introduced to address structural weaknesses The F4F-3 3rd group introduces the P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp with its 3 + 1 cooling flap arrangement and fairing between the wing and cowling associated with a revised intercooler design to address engine overheating and reliability problems. Then, with the F4F-4, a strengthened cowling lip carb air scoop and unbraced windscreen are introduced to replace the interim F4F-3 arrangements, and more importantly a folding 6 gun wing is introduced. General Motors would continue to evolve the design, culminating in the FM-2 It is when you add the foreign variants (G-36A, G-36B, F4F-3A and F4F-4B) into the mix that it gets a little confusing as concurrent production, the use of legacy features and the introduction of new features ahead of US variants, muddies the evolutionary tale. My observations are as follows... G-36A Martlet I The French G-36A is built first, though out of construction number order. I believe this is because the USN wants a significantly re-structured wing which would require some time to produce. The G-36A uses a less revised XF4F-3 wing which could be produced more quickly. Perhaps the French, then the British don't have time to wait for the F4F-3 wing. 91 construction numbers were allocated, but only 81 were manufactured. 1st group of F4F-3s Once the G-36As are built, the construction of first batch of the first group of F4F-3s is started. These have all the original Twin Wasp features as set out at the top of this post G-36B Martlet III(A) In December 1940, Grumman starts to construct 100 G-36Bs for the Royal Navy alongside the first group of F4F-3s, but production is suspended after the first 10 fuselages are built. This is because the RN want folding wings with more guns for its aircraft and it becomes apparent these won't be available for several months. GB has purchased its 100 R-1830-S3C4-G engines with the then current cowling features of cowling lip carb air scoop and single cooling flap. I assume the 10 fuselages, remaining 90 engines and other components are kept ready to restart production, when the folding wings become available. These 10 aircraft did introduce the previously unseen braced windscreen. Given these 10 airframes were built during the production run of the first group of F4F-3s, you would think that at least the 2nd batch of F4F-3s (BuNo. 2512 to 2538) would also feature this interim measure, but they don't. Perhaps this was a Royal Navy requested item that wasn't immediately adopted by the USN? Interestingly, the G-36B construction numbers are well out of sequence with 2#### numbers relevant to December 1942 machines. The RN needed the G-36Bs urgently and the 10 completed fuselages are fitted with F4F-3 wings in February 1941 and shipped to the UK. Most were presumed used and lost on the RNs first escort carrier HMS Audacity which didn't have a hanger deck and which was sunk in December 1941. 2nd group of F4F-3s With regard to the 2nd group of 19 F4F-3s that followed, I can't be sure if they were constructed before the F4F-3As or after. I have, given the lack of the fairing between the wing and cowling, decided they were built before, despite their acceptance date being in May after that of the F4F-3As. I think they were constructed shortly after the 10 G-36Bs in early 1941, but then were not ready for acceptance for a couple of months, possibly due to a shortage of engines or continued problems with engine overheating or reliability. I think, if they were built after the F4F-3As, they would also feature the fairing between the wing and cowling, as they would have been a standard manufacturing feature by then (see next para). F4F-3A Martlet III(B) In March 1941, Grumman started to construct the first of 95 F4F-3As. These machines reprised the use of the original cowling lip carb air scoop, despite being dropped by the contemporary 2nd group of 19 F4F-3s in favour of an interim internal carb air scoop arrangement. Was this because the original ducting weaknesses of the original cowling lip carb air scoop was not an issue for the -90 engine? The later folding wing G-36Bs with their equivalent S3C4-G engines, switched to the internal carb air scoop arrangement, so perhaps there was an issue. It has been noted that some of the RN F4F-3As in Africa, later switched to internal carb air scoop arrangements, though this is probably due to a change of engine, rather than a need for the internal carb air scoop arrangement. Of course if the 2nd group of 19 F4F-3s were built after the F4F-3As, it wouldn't be a reprise, but then that would throw up the issue of the missing clearance fairings on the 19 F4F-3s (see above para). The most interesting F4F-3A feature though is the clearance fairing between the wing and cowling. This was some three to one months before the 3rd group of 19 F4F-3s introduced the -86 engine with its revised intercooler which required the clearance fairing. The -90 engine didn't have an intercooler, never mind the revised one, so it wasn't necessary. I can only assume that Grumman started to produce the revised nose panels with the clearance fairing, as standard several months before they were actually required. The fact that photos of RN Martlet IIIBs show this unnecessary clearance fairing to be present, would suggest that even early F4F-3As had the revised nose panels, not just those built towards the end of the production run. 3rd group of F4F-3s The third group of F4F-3s for the USN are built next. These introduced the -86 engine with the definitive 3 + 1 cooling flaps, revised intercooler and associated clearance fairing on the nose panel. However, It also continued with the interim internal carb air scoop and braced windscreen of the previous group of F4F-3s. G-36B Martlet IIs In the Autumn of 1941, the requested up-gunned folding wings, finally became available. The remaining 90 G-36Bs are now built. Despite the date of production, the previously purchased R-1830-S3C4-G engines have the early 1941 standard single cooling flap. It did though have the current production standard interim internal carb air scoop, braced windscreen and nose panel with the clearance fairing between the wing and cowling. The first few machines don't have nose panels with the clearance fairings, presumably because they used nose panels originally acquired in December and kept in storage when production was suspended. With regard to the engine cowlings, it is hard to know if they were original Dec 41 versions with some changes made to the cowling lip (to remove the carb air scoop) or new build ones but with the legacy single cooling flap. Perhaps there wasn't the same cooling issue with the S3C4-G engine. The equivalent -90 engine has been operating OK with the one cooling flap in the heat of North Africa since June, so no need to make unnecessary changes to the cooling flap arrangement? F4F-4 Before G-36B production ends, the USN finally starts to receive its own folding wing F4Fs in the form of the F4F-4. These have the same -86 engine and 3 + 1 cooling flap/revised intercooler features of the previous F4F-3 group, but also introduce the definitive strengthened cowling lip carb air scoop and unbraced windscreen. F4F-4B Martlet IV Whilst the F4F-4s are being built, but after the remaining G-36Bs have been completed, Grumman also builds the F4F-4B /Wildcat IV for the Royal Navy. These are basically F4F-4s with R-1820-G205A Cyclone engines. In summary (anyone know how to insert a table?) Variant Construction number BuNo/GB serial Acceptance months Key features G-36A Martlet I 646 - 736 (91) (81 built) AL236-AL262 (27) Jul to Oct 1940 Wright R-1820-G205A Cyclone AX824-AX829 (6) Two piece Cyclone cowl with BJ507-BJ527 (21) no cooling flap BJ554-BJ570 (17) Carb air scoop on cowling lip BT447-BT456 (10) Modified XF4F-3 wing with two wide spaced single gun bays F4F-3 1st group 1st batch 561 - 610 1848 to 1896 (49) Nov 1940 to Feb 1941 P&W R-1830-76 Twin Wasp F4F-3 1st group 2nd batch 616 - 642 2512 to 2538 (27) Carb air scoop on cowling lip Single cooling flap F4F-3 wing (with a double gun bay) G-36B Martlet III(A) 2235 - 2244 AM954 to AM963 (10) Mar 1941 P&W R-1830-S3C4-G Twin Wasp (constructed Dec 40. Carb air scoop on cowling lip F4F-3 wings fitted Feb 41) Single cooling flap F4F-3 wing Braced windscreen F4F-3 2nd group 738 - 756 3856 to 3874 (19) May 41 P&W R-1830-76 Twin Wasp (constructed Feb/Mar 41?) Internal carb air scoop Single cooling flap F4F-3 wing Braced windscreen F4F-3A Martlet III(B) 757 - 786 3875 to 3904 (30) Mar 41 P&W R-1830-90 Twin Wasp (military version of S3C4-G) F4F-3A USN 787 - 851 3905 to 3969 (65) April to May 41 Carb air scoop on cowling lip (some later seen in 1942 without this) Single cooling flap Fairing between wing and cowling (not needed until -86 engine - Jun 41) F4F-3 wing Braced windscreen F4F-3 3rd group 852 - 939 3970 to 4057 (88) Jun to Sep 1941 P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp Internal carb air scoop 3 + 1 cooling flaps Fairing between wing and cowling F4F-3 wing Braced windscreen G-36B Martlet II 2245 - 2280 AM964 to AM999 (36) Aug to Dec 41 P&W R-1830-S3C4-G Twin Wasp 2281 - 2334 AJ100 to AJ153 (54) (production delayed from Internal carb air scoop Dec 40/Jan 41 for folding wings) Single cooling flap Fairing between wing and cowling (not on early AM serial machines) Folding wing with 6 guns Braced windscreen F4F-4 (1st batch) 940 - 980 (41) (31 built) 4058 to 4098 (31) Nov 41 to Dec 42 P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp F4F-4 (2nd batch) 981 - 1000 5030 to 5049 (20) Revised cowling lip carb air scoop 2001 - 2213 5050 to 5262 (213) 3 + 1 cooling flaps Fairing between wing and cowling Folding wing with 6 guns Revised unbraced windscreen F4F-4B /Wildcat IV 2806 - 3025 FN100 to FN319 (220) Jun to Nov 42 Wright R-1820 - 40 Cyclone Internal carb air scoop Single cooling flap Folding wing with 6 guns Revised unbraced windscreen F4F-4 (3rd batch) 3026 - 3187 01991 to 02152 (162) Nov 41 to Dec 42 P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp F4F-4 (4th batch) 3190 - 3349 03385 to 03544 (160) Revised cowling lip carb air scoop F4F-4 (5th batch) ? 1655 to 12227 (573) 3 + 1 cooling flaps Fairing between wing and cowling Folding wing with 6 guns Revised unbraced windscreen F4F-3 4th group ? 12230 to 12329 (100) Jan to May 43 P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp Revised cowling lip carb air scoop 3 + 1 cooling flaps Fairing between wing and cowling F4F-3 wing Revised unbraced windscreen

I would refer you to the topics and Also Tony O'Toole's article on 805 Wildcats in the Apr 08 Model Aircraft Monthly (p.19). As Maurice says in the first topic When received by the Royal Navy’s 805 Squadron, these aircraft were finished in the contemporary US Navy scheme of overall non specular Light Gray (some British authors like to call this “Neutrality Gray” but not the Bureau of Aeronautics' documentation). Subsequently, they received one or more other camouflage scheme, but what these were has been the subject of considerable speculation, including: • Upper surfaces overall Middle Stone, retaining the Light Gray undersurfaces • Upper surfaces overall Middle Stone, with Azure Blue undersurfaces • Upper surfaces in a disruptive desert scheme of Middle Stone and Dark Earth, with Azure Blue undersurfaces • Temperate Sea Scheme (Extra Dark Sea Grey and Dark Slate Grey with Sky undersurfaces) My view on the matter is as follows, though it is only my view. Tony's MAM article considers the first option, which appears to originate from a photo of 3875 K overturned after an accident. He shows, by means of a previously unpublished photo of the the same accident, that the aircraft was in fact in the original overall non specular Light Gray. Also, I think it a bit odd to paint the upper surfaces this way, when it would be more logical to paint them in a disruptive desert scheme as per other allied aircraft at the time. I also discount the second option for the same reason. There are photos of Martlet IIIs in a disruptive camouflage scheme (see the above topics) and it would be logical to conclude, a disruptive desert scheme. However, we have the account of Don Nairn in his autobiography book 'Gold Wings and Webbed Feet' (Invercargill, New Zealand: 1996), to refer to. Nairn served with 805 Squadron from December 1941 until January 1943 in both North and East Africa. Nairn states that, from mid-March 1942, 805 Squadron was tasked primarily with convoy protection. Consequently, during a major overhaul at the end of the month (the aircraft received, amongst other things, new engines and “improved” self-sealing fuel lines that had to be removed because they caused fuel flow problems) “the maintenance boys had also spruced up the sandblasted paintwork with a new over-water camouflage design – a mixture of sea green and blue patterns.” (p.78) What was this scheme? Was it Nairn’s interpretation, 50 years later, of Dark Slate Grey and Extra Dark Sea Grey, or was it the application of one of the Tropical Sea Schemes? Any additional information will be much appreciated. It is possible he misremembered but Nairn was describing his "personal" machine, of which it is very clear he was extremely proud, especially as it was "K" (for Kiwi - he was a New Zealander). Nairn's description quite clearly excludes any type of desert scheme and we would be hard pressed to imagine that he could confuse "sea green and blue" with any brown hues, so I doubt that only a single colour was applied over a previous overall upper surface desert shade. The contrast between the two upper camouflage colours is low suggesting the usual FAA Temperate Sea Scheme, though the under surface colour appears quite dark for Sky and could be Light Mediterranean Blue or some other colour. The ex-Greek F4F-3A aircraft were taken on charge by the Royal Navy at the very end of April 1941 and most seem to have been issued to 805 Squadron in June (after re-assembly). The change to AX serials from the original Bureau numbers appears to have taken place in August 1941. Nairn dates the application of the camouflage scheme he specified to the very end of March or very early April 1942 (it apparently depended upon when aircraft had to undergo major overhauls). 805 Squadron went to East Africa in August 1942 and exchanged its Martlet III aircraft for Martlet IV machines (Nairn specifically notes that these had Wright Cyclones and folding wings) in October 1942. Therefore, 805 Squadron operated Martlet III's for 14-15 months at the very most. It seems a very short period of time to be having multiple camouflage schemes. A case for not receiving a disruptive desert scheme is that I don't believe they were operating up near the front line in the Western desert and thus prone to attack on the ground from Axis aircraft and their overall non specular Light Gray camouflage wasn't apparently putting them at a tactical disadvantage when flying in combat. But when they switched to overwater operations, their operators naturally turned to the Temperate Sea Scheme, they were familiar with. I'm not saying for sure they didn't receive a disruptive desert scheme, just that it was unlikely, given the short time concerned and it wasn't mentioned by Don Nairn, who was there at the time. There is this problem photo Which suggests the rear three aircraft are in a disruptive desert scheme and the front three are in the Temperate Sea Scheme, but I wonder if it is just down to an uneven exposure across the plate. I guess you pick a photo and interpret it the way you see it.

@MDriskill@captnwoxof@ClaudioN@Bruce ArcherSo can we look at the sequence of production for the various Twin Wasp variants. It will help to explain why certain features are present or not present on particular variants. It throws up some questions which need answering. Some of the production dates may be wrong and this would explain some of the apparent anomalies. Can someone please confirm the production dates? - I took them from this post in Grumman F4F-3 colours @Geoffrey Sinclair Posted September 8. Martlet I production July to October 1940, F4F-3 production 2 in August 1940, then November 1940 to February 1941, May to December 1941, February to March 1942, January to May 1943, F4F-3A production March to May 1941. F4F-4 production November 1941 to December 1942, F4F-7 production January, March, May to September, November and December 1942. FM-1 production September 1942 to December 1943. FM-2 production September 1943 to August 1945. Total production 7,905. Using the F4F-4 production dates - November 1941 to December 1942 as the datum to work back from (because the F4F-4 had the final revised cowl top carb air scoop, revised unbraced windscreen and 3 + 1 engine cooling flap arrangements) I have the following observations and questions in red. Items in bold are changes from the previous variant. Variant Date produced F4F-3 (1st group) 2 in August 1940, then November 1940 to February 1941 Pratt & Whitney R-1830-76 Twin Wasp Carburettor air scoop on cowling top Single cooling flap F4F-3 wing with a large double gun bay in each wing - inner gun barrel extended (XF4F-3 wing structure redesigned) Martlet III(A) G-36B December 1940 -F4F-3 wings eventually fitted in February 1941 Pratt & Whitney R-1830-S3C4-G Twin Wasp (-76 engine not available for export) Carburettor air scoop on cowling top Single cooling flap F4F-3 wing Braced windscreen (to strengthen the framework) Martlet III(B)/F4F-3A March to May 1941 P&W R-1830-90 Twin Wasp (military version of S3C4-G) Carburettor air scoop on cowling top (some later seen in 1942 without this feature – possibly re-engined with spare S3C4-Gs?) Single cooling flap Small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling (seems way too soon to introduce this as a production standard feature. The redesigned supercharger and thus the need for this clearance fairing not introduced until November 1941 with production of the F4F-4) F4F-3 wing Braced windscreen F4F-3 (2nd group) May to December 1941 Pratt & Whitney R-1830-76 Twin Wasp Internal carburettor air scoop under cowling (possibly a problem with 2 stage supercharged engine collapsing the ducting in the cowl) Single cooling flap F4F-3 wing Braced windscreen Martlet II/F4F-4A G-36B August 41 to April 1942 P&W R-1830- S3C4-G Twin Wasp Internal carburettor air scoop under cowling (presumably the internal carb air scoop was a feature of the S3C4-G engine or there was no need to introduce the F4F-4 revised carburettor air scoop on cowling top from November 1941?) Single cooling flap Small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling (not on early machines. Presumably became production standard feature from November 1941?) Folding F4F-4 wing with 6 guns -no extended gun barrels (introduced the folding wing) Braced windscreen F4F-4 November 1941 to December 1942 (seems too early to introduce, logically, the F4F-4 should come after the F4F-3 (3rd group)) P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp Revised carburettor air scoop on cowling top 3 + 1 cooling flaps (assume this was production standard from Nov 1941?) Small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling (assume this was production standard from Nov 1941?) Folding wing with 6 guns -no extended gun barrels Revised unbraced windscreen F4F-3 (3rd group) February to March 1942 (seems retrograde to introduce as a front line fighter, No F4F-3s accepted during this period and you would think it would have the by then production standard F4F-4 revised carburettor air scoop and windscreen) P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp Internal carburettor air scoop under cowling (seems odd to return to the internal air scoop) 3 + 1 cooling flaps Small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling F4F-3 wing Braced windscreen (seems odd to return to the braced windscreen) Wildcat V/FM-1 September 1942 to December 1943 P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp Revised carburettor air scoop on cowling top 3 + 1 cooling flaps Small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling Folding wing with 4 guns -no extended gun barrels (reverted to 4 guns to allow more ammunition - effectively four gunned F4F-4s) Revised unbraced windscreen F4F-3 (4th group) January to May 1943 P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp Revised carburettor air scoop on cowling top 3 + 1 cooling flaps Small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling F4F-3 wing (these were advanced trainers with no need to store on carriers - effectively fixed wing F4F-4s/FM-1s) Revised unbraced windscreen

But I thought the final batch of F4F-3's didn't have the cowl lip carb intake and had the braced windscreen! Just when I think I have it down right, someone says something different. I had the features of the three batches as follows (stuff in bold being changes from the previous batch) G36 F4F-3 (1st group) P&W R-1830-76 Twin Wasp 2 stage 2 speed supercharger Carburettor air scoop on cowling top 2 intercooler air scoops inside cowling 4&8 o’clock Single cooling flap Fixed wing Telescopic gunsight (later replaced) 4 guns – inner gun barrel extended beyond wing leading edge Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller Stepped hub F4F-3 (2nd group) P&W R-1830-76 Twin Wasp 2 stage 2 speed supercharger No carburettor air scoop on cowling top 2 intercooler air scoops inside cowling 4&8 o’clock Single cooling flap Fixed wing Reflector gun sight 4 guns – inner gun barrel extended beyond wing leading edge Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller Stepped hub Braced windscreen F4F-3 (3rd group) P&W R-1830-86 Twin Wasp 2 stage 2 speed supercharger No carburettor air scoop on cowling top 2 intercooler air scoops inside cowling 4&8 o’clock 3 + 1 cooling flaps Small tear shaped bulge between wing and cowling Fixed wing Reflector gun sight 4 guns – inner gun barrel extended beyond wing leading edge Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller Stepped hub Braced windscreen I can see that if they were built at the same time as the F4F-4 and share the same engine, they would have the same production and induction features, minus the folding wings (not required for non-ship deployed training purposes). The photos would confirm this. Could they have subsequently been retrofitted with F4F-4 engines and cowls and strengthened windscreen or did they come off the production line with these F4F-4 features? If they did, the only Twin Wasp variants not to use the cowl lip carb air scoop would have been the small 2nd batch of F4F-3s and the fold wing Martlet IIs. I'll re-visit my references...

But the revised 3 + 1 cooling flaps arrangement was not also adopted. Also interesting that the late G-36B also adopted the internal carb air intake of the late F4F-3 and not the cowling carb air intake re-introduced for the F4F-4 and subsequent Twin Wasp variants. Why didn't the late G-36B pick up on these modifications adopted by Grumman to resolve Twin Wasp cooling/induction problems? Perhaps, not a problem for the single stage Twin Wasp variants?

As alluded to elsewhere on BM, some early Martlet IIs with "A.M." serials had British-spec catapult spools, and an extended lower fairing which may have had something to do with the fuel system between the landing gear, as seen in the shot below. AJ series aircraft did not have this extension. Can anyone shed further light as to why this particular sub-set of airframes had this extended lower fairing and why it was then dropped?

I quote from a previous topic TT.20s seen at Hurn in October 1969. At the time, the FRU were re-equipping with Canberras to replace them. The following were recorded in the Day Glo Signal Green (referred to by the observer as lime green) scheme WM159 840/A WM242 842 WD649 843 WM255 845 WD785 846 WD780 E They wore silver paint all over with lime green/black TT under surface bands and lime green trainer bands. The attachments holding the target drogue are painted standard golden yellow, compared with that lurid lime green colour underneath. The Royal Navy Meteors were initially painted with black/yellow stripes after being converted from NF.11s to TT.20s, but were repainted with the lime green paint in the mid-60s - I don't know of any other aircraft that had this colour dayglo, so guess they were pretty unique. The 3 digit codes were in black below the cockpit. 842 and 846 had shiny black 'radomes'. The letter codes were carried on the side of the overawing winch; E was in black on a lime winch with a black spiral spinner marking. 845's winch was Day Glo orange. They all had their serials marked on the fin, half way between the bullet fairing and the fuselage. Some, but not 842, 845 or E, had their serials in two lines, like this ... WD 875 Colour photos were taken at the time. Unfortunately, despite using kodacolour the prints reproduced the lime as yellow. In more recent times the observer tried scanning the negatives and attempted to revive the lime with photoshop. It depends what make of film was used as Agfa was notorious for not depicting 'dayglo' correctly. In Scale Aircraft Modelling September 1988, the aircraft in detail is target tugs. Two of the Mike Keep profiles are of FAA Meteor TT20s. The first is of WM292/041 in standard TT colours of the time (silver with golden yellow and black striped undersides). It had been suggested that the ‘lime green’ seen on these aircraft, was in fact Day Glo Saturn Yellow, which can be described as yellow with a touch of lime. However the observer says the lime green Day Glo carried by the TT 20s was much more green than Saturn Yellow.

@Bruce Archer Thanks for responding. It is the question of which engine variant was used by the the 10 fixed wing G36Bs. You say 'These ex-Mk. IIs were powered by a Pratt and Whitney R-1830-76 Twin Wasp with a two-speed two-stage supercharger. However, it has been claimed that the first ten Martlet IIs (later IIIs) had the same engine as the next 90 aircraft, the Pratt & Whitney Twin Wasp S3C4-G (equivalent to the P&W R-1830-90), that was "supplied" (acquired and paid for) by the British. Comparison of side-view photos of the XF4F-6 (Bu. No. 7030) and the Martlet II/III (AM958) show they are virtually the same thing. Reportedly, the two-stage supercharged variants (R-1830-76 and R-1830-86) were not cleared for export, thus France and Britain had to seek alternative powerplants. France opted for the Wright Cyclone G205A for the G-36A. Britain selected the Pratt & Whitney S3C4-G for the G-36B. This engine was developed into the equivalent R-1830-90 of the F4F-3A. This would make the two Martlet III groups even more similar with both having effectively the same engine and single stage supercharger. I was just interested to know why you thought they were powered by the -76 engine, as you seem confident they did. You might also be interested in the photos showing some of the 805 NAS F4F-3A equivalent Martlet IIIs in E Africa without the cowling top carburettor air scoops, suggesting re-engining with the S3C4-G engine of the Martlet II with their by then production standard internal carb air scoop or at least adoption of the internal carb air scoop when in for deep maintenance.

In deed. However there is an apparent error in it and other published references as discussed in the Grumman F4F-3 colours thread above. It is quite a complex picture with regard to the various F4F variants and the engines they used. What I thought was established truth, has subsequently been thrown into doubt or even disproved. Sometimes it is how you personally interpret the information provided. Don't assume a particular published reference is the definitive guide. Quite often contradictions and errors are thrown up when multiple references are compared, and new emerging reference material can sometimes reveal new details - some of the ex Greek Martlet IIIs in E Africa not having the usual cowling top carburettor air scoop being a recent example.

The various wildcat/Martlet variants and their features have been the subject of much discussion and the latest topic has strayed from its original question to a wider discussion concerning engine variants, production details and other matters. Other relevant posts include There are many others Any way I thought as requested, we start this topic for any wildcat/Martlet queries

Sorry, I should have thanked you and the other conservation participants as well

@ClaudioN and @MDriskill Thanks very much for your input regarding wildcat variants and their engines. It just shows that relying on published references to establish fact is fraught with difficulty and often involves conflicting or erroneous advice. The difficulty with engines is you can't always see obvious visual clues. My only query now is whether the G36B (late) F4F-4A? Martlet II would have had the S3C4-G engine or whether this would have been superseded by the -90 variant by the time the wing fold Martlet II was built or whether the S3C4-G was built concurrently with the-90 engine for the British Martlet order so in summary (items in bold different to that of the F4F-3 G36B (early) Martlet III(A) (British variant) P&W R-1830-S3C4-G Twin Wasp 1 stage 2 speed supercharger Carburettor air scoop on cowling top No intercooler scoops inside cowling Single cooling flap Fixed wing 4 guns – inner gun barrel extended Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller long, domed hub Braced windscreen F4F-3A & Martlet III(B) (Greek variant) P&W R-1830-90 Twin Wasp 1 stage 2 speed supercharger Carburettor air scoop on cowling top No intercooler scoops inside cowling Single cooling flap Small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling Fixed wing 4 guns – inner gun barrel extended Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller Stepped hub Braced windscreen G36B (late) F4F-4A? Martlet II (British variant) P&W R-1830-S3C4-G Twin Wasp 1 stage 2 speed supercharger No carburettor air scoop on cowling top No intercooler scoops inside cowling Single cooling flap Small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling Folding wing 6 guns -no extended gun barrels Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller long, domed hub Braced windscreen Initially small 7 shaped pitot tube on top left wing, later small L shaped pitot tube under left wing later pneumatic tail wheel tyre Thanks again

@ClaudioN. Again, I've been working off Bert Kinzey's Detail and Scale Vol 7 and Bruce Archer's well known on line guide http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/wildcatfaaba_1.htm only, so apologies if this draws conclusions which differ from other resources. It is Bruce Archer who says the 10 fixed wing G36Bs used the -76. 'These ex-Mk. IIs were powered by a Pratt and Whitney R-1830-76 Twin Wasp with a two-speed two-stage supercharger. 'Looking at Bert Kinzey's book, he says the 'first 10 Martlet IIs were built to F4F-3 standards.' but (unlike the remaining G36Bs) doesn't expressly state which engine variant they had. If we look at the G36B order which ended being split by 6 months whilst the folding wing was developed, I have the following features G36B (early) Martlet III(A) (British variant) P&W R-1830-76 (or -90 equivalent S3C4-G) Twin Wasp 2 stage (or 1 stage) 2 speed supercharger Carburettor air scoop on cowling top 2 intercooler scoops inside cowling 4&8 o’clock (or not) Single cooling flap Fixed wing 4 guns – inner gun barrel extended straight pitot tube Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller long, domed hub Braced windscreen I'd say if it used the -76 engine,, it's closest comparable USN variant was the 1st group of F4F-3s but with the braced windscreen of the 2nd group. If it had the -90 equivalent S3C4-G engine, it would be the F4F-3A G36B (late) F4F-4A? Martlet II (British variant) P&W R-1830-90 equivalent S3C4-G Twin Wasp 1 stage 2 speed supercharger No carburettor air scoop on cowling top No intercooler scoops inside cowling Single cooling flap Small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling Folding wing 6 guns -no extended gun barrels Curtiss Electric cuffed propeller long, domed hub Braced windscreen Initially small 7 shaped on top left wing, later small L shaped pitot tube under left wing later pneumatic tail wheel tyre I'd say it's closest comparable USN variant was the F4F-3A but with the internal carburettor air scoop of late F4F-3s (not adopted by subsequent Twin Wasp variants) and the wings and armament of the F4F-4. The G36B has a unique long, domed hub. I do not know why it has this, rather than the F4F-3/3A stepped hub. It would be far simpler if the G36 early had the equivalent engine of the F4F-3A. It would make the G36 early and the F4F-3A almost the same machine bar the G36B hub and would make both groups of Martlet llls even more similar than I thought. The presence or not of the small tear shaped fairing between wing and cowling does not reflect the presence or need for it on Martlet llls, but probably that the nose panels were standardised with its presence by the time the F4F-3A and most of the G36B lates were being built. The -76 engine used the original intercooler design which didn't need the small tear shaped fairing so the absence of the fairing does not mean the absence of an intercooler and therefore the -76 engine. So is @Bruce Archer wrong? He clearly states that the G36B early (first 10 machines) were powered by the -76 engine and the G36B late (remaining 90) were powered by the -90 engine. Perhaps Bruce can tell us why he thinks the first 10 G36Bs were not powered by the -90 engine? The cowling carburettor air scoop is not an indicator as these are present and absent on different -90 engine variants. Nor is the presence or not of the small intercooler clearance faring between the wing and cowling, as these were present on variants using Twin Wasp engines with and without intercoolers. However the presence of the 2 intercooler scoops inside cowling at 4&8 o’clock, would definitely indicate the presence of a two stage supercharger. Find a picture of a G36B early with these and you have proof of a -76 or -86 engine Looking at the post showing orders it says Martlet II/F4F-3/G-36B, order A-1548, requisition 2/E1/40, P&W R-1830-S3C4-G. AM954 to AM999 and AJ100 to AJ153, with AM954 to AM963 having fixed wings and later considered mark III, total 100. This would suggest all G36Bs were -90 equivalent S3C4-G engine powered. Production wasn't stopped to await a different engine variant, But for the folding wings and extra guns. Was there an advantage in dropping the 2 stage two speed supercharger of the -76 engine? Perhaps the FAA decided it wasn't needed and it reduced maintenance burden. The F4F-3 dropped the -76 engine but persisted with the redesigned 2 stage two speed supercharger of the -86 engine, which was introduced with the final group of machines. The F4F-3A was only a back up if the 2 stage two speed supercharger failed and the F4F-4 and FM-1 retained the 2 stage two speed supercharger on their Twin Wasp engines when the fears of unreliability proved unfounded. The USN obviously wanted the 2 stage two speed supercharger.

@ClaudioNThanks. Yes the "2nd group" refers to 19 F4F-3 BuNos 3856 to 3874. I have to say I was working off the information provided in Bert Kinzey's Detail and Scale Vol 7 only, so I wasn't aware that other references disagree with it's findings. Bert Kinzey's book does not link the production groups to specific orders, but clearly states that 'the Pratt & Whitney R-1830-86 engine with a two stage two-speed supercharger was installed in these aircraft'. It seems to me the 2nd group introduced the -86 engine but retained the unsatisfactory 1st group cooling and intercooler arrangement. This was a very small single production batch and was quickly superseded by the first production batch of 88 3rd group aircraft BuNos 3970 to 4057 with the increased number of cooling flaps and revised intercooler design. A second production batch of 100 3rd group aircraft BuNos 12230 to 12329 were ordered over a year later in 1943 as stateside training aircraft and don't represent the frontline standard specification of the time, which I think would have been the F4F-4 and FM-1. HOWEVER..... Initial production machines - BuNos 1844 to 1845 (2) - for service testing 1st group - BuNos 1848 to 1896 (49) and 2512 to 2538 (27) 2nd group - BuNos 3856 to 3874 (19) 3rd group - BuNos 3970 to 4057 (88) and BuNos 12230 to 12329 (100) Looking at the production order details above, we see Contract 68219, 8 August 1939, for 78 F4F-3, P&W R1830-76, plus 1 X4F-4 with the same engine, 2 XF4F-5 with Wright R-1820-40 and 1 XF4F-6 with a furnished by contractor P&W R-1830-90 Contract 75736, 5 August 1940, for 107 F4F-3 with P&W R-1830-76/86 plus 95 F4F-3A with P&W R-1830-90 and 596 F4F-4 with P&W R-1830-86 and 21 F4F-7 with P&W R-1830-86 Contract 99340, 16 May 1942, for 573 F4F-4 with P&W R-1830-86 plus 2 XF4F-8 with Wright R-1820-56 and 100 F4F-3 with P&W R-1830-86/76. So I conclude Contract 68219, 8 August 1939 refers to the 1st two production aircraft plus the 1st group (49+27) - all using the -76 engine. Contract 75736, 5 August 1940 refers to the 19 2nd group plus the 88 1st production batch of the 3rd production group. Note the 76/86 engine split, which suggests the 19 2nd group aircraft used the -76 engine and the 1st production batch of 88 3rd group aircraft used the -86 engine Contract 99340, 16 May 1942 refers to the 2nd production batch of 100 3rd group aircraft which used the -86 engine. This is probably why Don Linn and Frank L. Greene conclude that the 2nd production group was powered by the -76 engine. However, what is ordered is not necessarily what is delivered and it would be interesting to know why Bert Kinzey concludes that the 2nd group used the -86 engine. He may know something others don't. It might be that at the time the 2nd order was made, it wasn't clear whether the F4F-3s concerned would be powered by the -76 or -86 engine, hence the 76/86? You will note that the last 100 F4F-3s are recorded as having 86/76 engines, though I would think they almost certainly used the then standard -86 engine.

@tempestfan I imagine the carburettor air scoop was inside the cowling ring at 12 o'clock as per the XF4F-3. I imagine it would have been similar to the intercooler scoops at the 4&8 o’clock. @Dana Bells Aircraft Pictorial No. 4 may have pictures not found in Bert Kinzey's Detail and Scale Vol 7 that I don't have access to, which shows the internal carburettor air scoop. I imaging the The later production F4F-3s and contemporary foldwing Martlet IIs were the only Twin Wasp powered F4Fs to have the internal carburettor scoops, The later Twin Wasp powered variants (F4F-4, F4F-7 and FM1) re-introduced the carburettor air scoop on the cowling top, so I guess the internal scoop was not a success?

@ClaudioNThanks for the correction. My bad. Always happy to be corrected I assume though that in March 1942, the 90 equivalent S3C4-G engine of the Martlet II and associated cowling without the cowling top carburettor air scoop would still have been the engine variant most likely available to the maintenance units when the 805 NAS machines went through their major overhaul incl. engine change and camouflage refresh.