RAF Sky Blue?

[JohnMacG]

Following the recent thread on Blenheim Ifs in Singapore, I want to do a 1/72nd scale model of one, but.....

Is there a ready-mix enamel paint for that Sky Blue colour seen on the colour pics of these a/c?

I've seen Humbrol 23 (duck egg blue) suggested, but it seems too light to me, and not 'grey' enough.

Any suggestions?

[Greenshirt]

I use Pollyscale 505396, Light Blue. Gunze H314 is similar, and Mr Color 314 (FS35622) is nearly identical to Gunze but is lacquer based. I use those others when I want variation between subjects.

Regards,

Tim

[Daniel Cox]

Hello John,

You might try White Ensign Models Colourcoats Enamel ASOZ01 RAAF Sky Blue which appears much closer to the Sky Blue on the Blenheim aircraft shown in the Singapore thread compared to their other Sky Blue BS 1 ACRN29.

Cheers,

Daniel.

[Fernando]

As Greenshirt said, FS35622 is a good colour for Sky Blue; Humbrol equivalent is 122 Israeli Light Blue.

Fernando

[Nick Millman]

As Greenshirt said, FS35622 is a good colour for Sky Blue; Humbrol equivalent is 122 Israeli Light Blue.

Fernando

Is it? I compared a photospectrometrically measured value from the MAP swatch for Sky Blue to 35622 and the difference calculation is 8.23 where 2.0 or less equals a close match. FS 35622 is however a very close match to Dupont's 71-021 Sky Type S Grey and if you think those two colours are similar you can compare them in situ here. Presumably then the hobby paints are not really like 35622?

I found that Sky Blue was closer to FS 25530 @ 2.60 but unfortunately that colour value is now obsolete.

Geoff Thomas gave FS 35414 for Sky Blue which has a difference calculation to the swatch of 11.9!

[Greenshirt]

As Greenshirt said, FS35622 is a good colour for Sky Blue; Humbrol equivalent is 122 Israeli Light Blue.

Fernando

To be clear, I believe PollyScale (PS 505396) is a close match (to my eye). The Gunze and Mr Hobby rendition of FS35622 are close to the PS color, but not quite the same. I use Gunze/Mr Hobby as a variation, when a photo or reference indicates the light blue color is not quite Sky Blue.

Regards,

Tim

(Edited for clarity)

Edited May 3, 2011 by Greenshirt

[tonyot]

Not being much into FS Numbers, or the use of swatches when referring to British colours does anybody please know the best `off the shelf' colour for RAF Sky Blue that is still available to buy, maybe from the Humbrol range which is universal?

All the best

Tony O

[The wooksta V2.0]

I used Xtracrylix RLM 76 for the blue on the prototype and a pair of whiffed 1940 mk Ias. Worked for me.

[Fernando]

Is it? I compared a photospectrometrically measured value from the MAP swatch for Sky Blue to 35622 and the difference calculation is 8.23 where 2.0 or less equals a close match. FS 35622 is however a very close match to Dupont's 71-021 Sky Type S Grey and if you think those two colours are similar you can compare them in situ here. Presumably then the hobby paints are not really like 35622?

I found that Sky Blue was closer to FS 25530 @ 2.60 but unfortunately that colour value is now obsolete.

Geoff Thomas gave FS 35414 for Sky Blue which has a difference calculation to the swatch of 11.9!

Hi, Nick,

Strange, for me 35622 has always had a distinct bluer hue when compared to Sky (in any variation), though I recogniz a slight greenish cast. Methamesmerism?

Was 25530 a bit darker and truer blue?

Fernando

[Fernando]

Not being much into FS Numbers, or the use of swatches when referring to British colours does anybody please know the best `off the shelf' colour for RAF Sky Blue that is still available to buy, maybe from the Humbrol range which is universal?

All the best

Tony O

As said before, Humbrol 122 is FS35622. All these colour conventions and equivalences are recorded in the IPMS Stockholm site. Not all of them are according the latest "doctrine", though.

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/helpdesk.asp#color_charts

Fernando

[stevehnz]

As said before, Humbrol 122 is FS35622. All these colour conventions and equivalences are recorded in the IPMS Stockholm site. Not all of them are according the latest "doctrine", though.

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/helpdesk.asp#color_charts

Fernando

AFAIK Hu 122 has been out of production for some time so this reference may not be much use unless your local shop has some old stock. Frequently manufacturers cross reference are only approximate at best so it would be helpful to know who has found a good match for Hu122 or FS35622 from personal experience eg actual comparison.

Steve.

[Fernando]

AFAIK Hu 122 has been out of production for some time so this reference may not be much use unless your local shop has some old stock. Frequently manufacturers cross reference are only approximate at best so it would be helpful to know who has found a good match for Hu122 or FS35622 from personal experience eg actual comparison.

Steve.

Quite true, that's why I rather speak in FS terms; though not absolutely accurate, they are traceable. But the poster (tonyot) regarded Humbrol paints as "universal", therefore, I answered in such terms. Humbrol paints are far from universal, have changed completely of notation and even system several times and even within the same number, the actual colour has changed in some cases.

Fernando

[Nick Millman]

Hi, Nick,

Strange, for me 35622 has always had a distinct bluer hue when compared to Sky (in any variation), though I recogniz a slight greenish cast. Methamesmerism?

Was 25530 a bit darker and truer blue?

Fernando

Hi Fernando

Yes, there is a blue cast to 35622 but it also more grey-greenish than Sky Blue. 25530 is more greyish and not quite blue enough. In comparisons I was surprised at how cool and greyish Sky Blue actually was, the blue chroma is not saturated. Safe to say there is now no useful FS equivalent to it and that 35622 is not a good match for Sky Blue. If Humbrol 122 matches 35622 then it is not a good match for Sky Blue either! It would however be useful for replicating the US export "duck egg blue". The Humbrol match given for 122 is 34 White x 45, 64 Light Grey x 3, 80 Grass Green x 2 and 109 WW1 Blue x 1.

With blue-greens people tend to see either the blue or the green as dominant, dependent on their individual colour perception.

Regards

Nick

[Severus]

With blue-greens people tend to see either the blue or the green as dominant, dependent on their individual colour perception.

Regards

Nick

Depends also on contrast to environment as well as contrast to other camo shades.

BTW... Color perception also varies even between the eyes of single person.

[Fernando]

Hi Fernando

Yes, there is a blue cast to 35622 but it also more grey-greenish than Sky Blue. 25530 is more greyish and not quite blue enough. In comparisons I was surprised at how cool and greyish Sky Blue actually was, the blue chroma is not saturated. Safe to say there is now no useful FS equivalent to it and that 35622 is not a good match for Sky Blue. If Humbrol 122 matches 35622 then it is not a good match for Sky Blue either! It would however be useful for replicating the US export "duck egg blue". The Humbrol match given for 122 is 34 White x 45, 64 Light Grey x 3, 80 Grass Green x 2 and 109 WW1 Blue x 1.

With blue-greens people tend to see either the blue or the green as dominant, dependent on their individual colour perception.

Regards

Nick

Hi, Nick,

Humbrol 122 is advertised as being 35622, so I guess it is not a good match either! You mean it could be useful for the undersurfaces all those P-40s and P-400s (and those include mine!) usually painted Light Grey? I ll be sure to adopt it.

On the other side... I have seen, in the thread on the Buffalo , that the in-theatre painted band (Sky Blue) was lighter than the factory-applied undersides (let's say it is "US export duck egg blue")... I am surely missing something, because the band is acknowledged to be lighter, but from the posts here, Sky Blue should be darker than the factory-applied DEB... What am I doing wrong (besides thinking too much)?

Always a pleasure,

Fernando

[Nick Millman]

Hi, Nick,

Humbrol 122 is advertised as being 35622, so I guess it is not a good match either! You mean it could be useful for the undersurfaces all those P-40s and P-400s (and those include mine!) usually painted Light Grey? I ll be sure to adopt it.

On the other side... I have seen, in the thread on the Buffalo , that the in-theatre painted band (Sky Blue) was lighter than the factory-applied undersides (let's say it is "US export duck egg blue")... I am surely missing something, because the band is acknowledged to be lighter, but from the posts here, Sky Blue should be darker than the factory-applied DEB... What am I doing wrong (besides thinking too much)?

Always a pleasure,

Fernando

Hi Fernando

No, you are not thinking too much! ;-) That is precisely the issue with the Buffalo. "US export duck egg blue", to coin a phrase, encompasses colours like that found on the undersurface of the Martlet too, not just the Dupont 71-021 example, so pale blue-greens around Munsell 6.5 BG 7.2/1.7. Although 71-021 looks more blueish when compared to original Sky it is still GY (Green-Yellow) in Munsell and in turn looks closer to Sky when compared to these earlier (?) pale blue-greens. I'll try to post some colour juxtapositions on my blog to demonstrate the hues and metamerism involved.

Unfortunately there are no close equivalents for the blue-green in FS 595B. The closest is 15526 but it is not quite green enough. 25530 is (was) slightly greener than Sky Blue. However, Sky Blue on the "Martlet-type pale blue-green" provides a near perfect comparison to the tonal contrast seen in the Buffalo photos and is also consistent with the description by Bingham-Wallis.

Regards

Nick

[Prop Duster]

... I'll try to post some colour juxtapositions on my blog to demonstrate the hues and metamerism involved....

Regards

Nick

may one inquire as to how to find your blog?Please.

[rod mcq]

White Ensign have 2 sky blues in their RAF/RN range.

BS 381c (1930) No. 1 Sky Blue ACRN29 and Air Ministry Sky Blue ACRN24. I think the latter is the colour required.

[Mike G]

Hi Fernando

Yes, there is a blue cast to 35622 but it also more grey-greenish than Sky Blue. 25530 is more greyish and not quite blue enough. In comparisons I was surprised at how cool and greyish Sky Blue actually was, the blue chroma is not saturated. Safe to say there is now no useful FS equivalent to it and that 35622 is not a good match for Sky Blue. If Humbrol 122 matches 35622 then it is not a good match for Sky Blue either! It would however be useful for replicating the US export "duck egg blue". The Humbrol match given for 122 is 34 White x 45, 64 Light Grey x 3, 80 Grass Green x 2 and 109 WW1 Blue x 1.

With blue-greens people tend to see either the blue or the green as dominant, dependent on their individual colour perception.

Regards

Nick

I had a lot to do with colour during my career in the motoring industry and attended several presentations by major paint suppliers. I can confirm that the blue/green colour range (we used to call them 'Teals') were the most difficult to perceive. There is, for example a physiological difference in the way males and females describe blue/greens. One (can't remember which way round) would see a colour as 'green', the other would see the same colour as 'blue'.

I recall also that we actually have no memory for colour. This is what makes police work so difficult sometimes. I was involved in some criminal investigations as a company representative. In one, several witnesses had seen the incident in broad daylight but none could recall accurately the colour of the vehicle involved. We arranged a line up of all the colours in our range and the witnesses chose colours from right across the spectrum!! The actual colour involved was, strangely, one of the troublesome 'Teal' hues.

This is why I always treat eyewitness reports of colour schemes with circumspection.

[Fernando]

Hi Fernando

. I'll try to post some colour juxtapositions on my blog to demonstrate the hues and metamerism involved.

Unfortunately there are no close equivalents for the blue-green in FS 595B. The closest is 15526 but it is not quite green enough. 25530 is (was) slightly greener than Sky Blue. However, Sky Blue on the "Martlet-type pale blue-green" provides a near perfect comparison to the tonal contrast seen in the Buffalo photos and is also consistent with the description by Bingham-Wallis.

Regards

Nick

Hi, Nick,

It certainly deserves a post in your blog with "digital paint chips" and all. Remember those of us armchair researchers who are pretty removed from real examples and have to make do with colour chips and hobby paints! Especially a chip of Sky Blue... I kept wondering and searching for a hobby colour now that you have debunked 35622 equivalents (a colour readily available in most hobby paint lines, damn!) IF it should be stronger, perhaps greenisher and a bit darker, may be RLM65-type hobby paints will fit the bill? But the Buffalo pictures do not agree with this...

Nevertheless, in defense of 35622 (and its "blueicity"), it must be said that the USAF (and the IAF, for that matter) uses it as the "light blue" undersurface element in the Desert Scheme camouflage (it is present in the Desert scheme in Phantoms and F-16s delivered to the IAF, as well as in Nesher/Kfir home built machines -curiously enough, the "Middle East" camouflage, as seen in Iranian F-4s, F-14s and F-5Es uses 36622, a warm, definite light grey). Remember that the RAF had considered "Sky Type S" unsuitable for Tropical uses...

Finally, IAF F-16 have, to this day, a colour similar to "Sky Type S" as an element of upper camouflage, FS36424 (derived from ANA 610?? and, therefore, from MAP Sky Type S??). This functions as the "pale green" element, replacing the FS34227 of earlier machines (F-4s and A-4s)

Fernando

[Fernando]

may one inquire as to how to find your blog?Please.

Hi,

I hope I am not guilty of indiscretion if I give you the link myself. The blog relevant to this discussion (there are a couple others) is:

http://amair4raf.blogspot.com/

Fernando

Edited May 8, 2011 by Fernando

[Nick Millman]

Hi, Nick,

It certainly deserves a post in your blog with "digital paint chips" and all. Remember those of us armchair researchers who are pretty removed from real examples and have to make do with colour chips and hobby paints! Especially a chip of Sky Blue... I kept wondering and searching for a hobby colour now that you have debunked 35622 equivalents (a colour readily available in most hobby paint lines, damn!) IF it should be stronger, perhaps greenisher and a bit darker, may be RLM65-type hobby paints will fit the bill? But the Buffalo pictures do not agree with this...

Nevertheless, in defense of 35622 (and its "blueicity"), it must be said that the USAF (and the IAF, for that matter) uses it as the "light blue" undersurface element in the Desert Scheme camouflage (it is present in the Desert scheme in Phantoms and F-16s delivered to the IAF, as well as in Nesher/Kfir home built machines -curiously enough, the "Middle East" camouflage, as seen in Iranian F-4s, F-14s and F-5Es uses 36622, a warm, definite light grey). Remember that the RAF had considered "Sky Type S" unsuitable for Tropical uses...

Finally, IAF F-16 have, to this day, a colour similar to "Sky Type S" as an element of upper camouflage, FS36424 (derived from ANA 610?? and, therefore, from MAP Sky Type S??). This functions as the "pale green" element, replacing the FS34227 of earlier machines (F-4s and A-4s)

Fernando

Ok, let me try to zero you in a bit closer to Sky Blue! ;-) Although 35622 is classified as "blue" in the FS595B categorisation its Munsell value is "green" - 0.7 G 8.2/0.9. Sky Blue is a "pure" blue 6.1 B 7.6/1.6. If you have a FS595B deck compare page no.52 with 35622 at the top to page no. 55 with 35550 at the top. Hopefully you will immediately perceive the green in 35622 and see how it sits at the top of a row of blue-greens. Now this comparison is useful because although 25530 is obsolete the next closest FS equivalent to Sky Blue @ 3.12 is 35526 (which is significantly darker) and 35550 @ 5.51 (which is significantly lighter). 35526 sits below 35550 and Sky Blue sits somewhat between these two values if a touch more greyish. Not surprising as 35550 is 3.7 B 8.4/1.3 and 35526 is 3.4 B 7.3/1.9. So you should be looking to match a blue between those values and that hue.

Now I don't know whether the hobby paints you mention accurately capture 35622 but if they are cool light blues more between 35550 and 35526 then they are perhaps closer indeed to Sky Blue. It is a pale, cool, slightly greyish blue with no hint of green. Bear in mind also that if Sky Blue were greener it would have obviated the need for Sky and it were a deeper sky blue it would have obviated the need for Azure Blue. Looking at the Humbrol range I can see no obvious contenders for an easy match. 65 Matt Aircraft Blue is too dark and also has that hint of green. I'm not sure adding white to this would get there. Starting with white and adding a small amount of 25 Matt Blue might get there but I haven't tried it.

As an aside are you sure the Israeli pale green is 36424? The closest FS equivalent to Sky is 34424 @ 2.98 and I thought that was the Israeli colour? 36424 is a slightly brownish "pumice stone" grey.

Regards

Nick

[Fernando]

As an aside are you sure the Israeli pale green is 36424? The closest FS equivalent to Sky is 34424 @ 2.98 and I thought that was the Israeli colour? 36424 is a slightly brownish "pumice stone" grey.

Regards

Nick

Geez, Nick, a typo, just there. 34424, of course. That's the colour derived from ANA 610, I think. It functions as the "green element" in modern USAF/IAF Desert scheme, so a x6xxx wouldn't do. But the "Light Blue" element is 35622...

FS35550? Mmh, that's a bright, true Sky blue, indeed. The greenish cast in 35622 is evident in the comparison. Let's look for a hobby paint. Possibly some Russian VVS AMT or AII Light blue, which are true and bright... Problem is that as soon as you try to manipulate those light grayish blues (-greens), they immediately get desaturated and tend to the greys...

Always a pleasure,

Fernando

Edited May 8, 2011 by Fernando

[keefr22]

Starting with white and adding a small amount of 25 Matt Blue might get there but I haven't tried it.

Nick,

Would lightening azure with white work - or would the red component in the azure make it too warm?

I may be getting myself totally confused here though - is the Sky Blue being talked about here the one that might also have been referred to Duck Egg Blue - or have I lost the plot completely?! I'm also looking for a readily available or easily mixed colour for the latter to do the Meteor F8 hack flown by Gp Capt Ackwood at Odiham in 1956 as shown in the Cold War Shield book. There's a small bit of text from him that says ''my tech wing produced some duck egg blue paint left over from WW2....'' and 'The Meteor was known as 'BlueBird'...' Well, the tin of Humbrol D.E.B. I have looks too pale & greenish to actually produce a Meteor known as Blue Bird, so I'm wondering if it could have been Sky Blue instead??

Keef

[JosephLalor]

How about starting with something like Humbrol 47 Sea Blue? It's a fairyly pure light blue and would probably respond to lightening with white - maybe equal parts?. I also recall a suggested mix in Scale Aircraft Modelling from about six years ago, consisting of Humbrol 25 blue and 34 white. I think the proportions were about 1 to 24.

Joseph