wally7506 Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 When were the frontline Spitfire Mk Is equipped with the armoured windscreens? Was it right after the war started or close to the BoB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 (edited) Can't give a precise date, but Tuck was one of the first, on his Squadron, and he got it during the Dunkirk evacuation. The internal armour started 26-4-41. Edgar Edited August 10, 2009 by Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 IIRC, the armoured windscreen was introduced just before the BoB, together with internal armour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wally7506 Posted August 10, 2009 Author Share Posted August 10, 2009 IIRC, the armoured windscreen was introduced just before the BoB, together with internal armour. The reason I ask is because I've seen some pictures of 602 Sqn spits and they all have type A fuselage roundels on the fuselage and windscreen armour. Check out these two: So this would be prior to the BoF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Those were taken in March/April 1940 - I did have a more exact date than that, but can't put my hands on it right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigReg Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Isn't the guy on the right from the health and safety section saying 'You shouldn't be standing on a kitchen chair me lad you need a step ladder, safety cage and harness to do thay work11' David The reason I ask is because I've seen some pictures of 602 Sqn spits and they all have type A fuselage roundels on the fuselage and windscreen armour. Check out these two: So this would be prior to the BoF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Actually, the bullet-proof windscreen was already in place by the 11th July 1939, when modification 99 introduced the defrosting system for it. Rear armour was introduced from 19 October 1939 with mod. 140. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 (edited) That would be consistent with the red/blue, or B, fuselage roundel, which was more of a 1939 feature and had been replaced by red/white/blue, or A well before March/April 1940. Edited August 10, 2009 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 That would be consistent with the red/blue, or B, fuselage roundel, which was more of a 1939 feature and had been replaced by red/white/blue, or A well before March/April 1940. It's not a red/blue roundel Graham - it's a small red/white/blue one. It's clearer in these images form the same session Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 So it is - my apologies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 (edited) Possibly taken at Drem between September 1939 and May 1940. 602 Sqn.was re-equipped with Spitfires in April-May 1939 but the squadron codes reverted to LO from ZT only in September that year. The red/white/blue fuselage roundel without yellow ring would date the photos to pre-May 1940 and the squadron didn't move to Westhampnett until August that year. Edited August 10, 2009 by Super Aereo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 Actually, the bullet-proof windscreen was already in place by the 11th July 1939, when modification 99 introduced the defrosting system for it. Rear armour was introduced from 19 October 1939 with mod. 140. Not quite; the wording for mod 99 is "To provide for defrosting of bullet proof windscreen." "Provide for" does not mean "fit," and the mod was not implemented until 19-9-40. Bob Stanford Tuck had good cause to remember when it was fitted; it was fitted in the morning, and it stopped a rear gunner's bullet, which would have taken his head off, in the afternoon. Mod 140 was "To provide rear armour protection (fixed.)" i.e on the seat bulkhead, and was implemented 6-2-40. Mod 146 "To provide rear armour protection (removable)" i.e. behind the seat, was implemented on the same day. Ministry approval, for those two mods, wasn't applied for until 10-11-39. And, before anyone quotes "Spitfire the History" (or some other source,) the information comes from Vickers' own ledger of all of the Spitfire mods, held in the RAF Museum, under their reference B3606. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Belbin Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 What is the 'rail thing' on the fuel tank cover, ahead of the screen and on the same plane as the canopy rail? It appears on the other side of an aircraft in the photographs that follow . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 I suspect a mount for an exhaust glare shield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted August 10, 2009 Share Posted August 10, 2009 It's for fitting glare shields for night flying. 602 and 603 provided both day and night defence for central Scotland during the early part of 1940. They had some, but not much, success at night. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Belbin Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Ah, yes, of course! I thought they were black and white photographs . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Not quite; the wording for mod 99 is "To provide for defrosting of bullet proof windscreen." "Provide for" does not mean "fit," and the mod was not implemented until 19-9-40. Bob Stanford Tuck had good cause to remember when it was fitted; it was fitted in the morning, and it stopped a rear gunner's bullet, which would have taken his head off, in the afternoon.Mod 140 was "To provide rear armour protection (fixed.)" i.e on the seat bulkhead, and was implemented 6-2-40. Mod 146 "To provide rear armour protection (removable)" i.e. behind the seat, was implemented on the same day. Ministry approval, for those two mods, wasn't applied for until 10-11-39. And, before anyone quotes "Spitfire the History" (or some other source,) the information comes from Vickers' own ledger of all of the Spitfire mods, held in the RAF Museum, under their reference B3606. Edgar With all due respect, the photos of 602 Sqn. Spits above should have been taken between Nov '39 and May '40 (if we take the markings as being painted according to regulations), and the bullet-proof windscreens are well and truly already in place... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 A slip of the keyboard perhaps - maybe 19 - 9-39? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) The timescale is narrower than that; mod 201, on the Spitfire "To alter national marking on fuselage from blue ring red centre to a blue ring round a white ring with a red centre" was implemented 19-3-40, and mod 145 "To introduce a (removable) shield to prevent exhaust glare" was 12-1-40. Edgar A slip of the keyboard perhaps - maybe 19 - 9-39? Don't think so. Edited August 11, 2009 by Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 That was on the production line, operational machines had been modified earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Edgar, I note that is to provide defrosting of bullet proof windscreen - is there an earlier mod to provide bullet proof windscreen on it's own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 By the way, the national marking on fuselage on operational machines was changed from blue ring red centre to a blue ring round a white ring with a red centre in November 1939 IIRC. Such minor modifications were often applied first at unit or MTU level and only later on the production line in order to minimise disruption to the production output from the factories, since any change would have entailed modifications to the production process itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 (edited) Edgar, I note that is to provide defrosting of bullet proof windscreen - is there an earlier mod to provide bullet proof windscreen on it's own? Can't find one, but mods prior to 58 seem to have gone unrecorded, or were in another ledger; since it appears that Tuck's Squadron could fit three in a morning, it sounds as though it was a fairly simple bolt on exchange. As for the rest, seeing that "IIRC" seems to carry more weight than Vickers' own records, I'm bowing out of this one. Edgar Edited August 11, 2009 by Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Can't find one, but mods prior to 58 seem to have gone unrecorded, or were in another ledger; since it appears that Tuck's Squadron could fit three in a morning, it sounds as though it was a fairly simple bolt on exchange.As for the rest, seeing that "IIRC" seems to carry more weight than Vickers' own records, I'm bowing out of this one. Edgar Edgar, I understand your point, but Vickers records don't answer the original question, which was when were the armoured windscreens fitted - the records show when the defrosting was cleared, not when the armoured windscreen was introduced. There is photographic evidence that shows it fitted in March/April 1940 on the 602 aircraft (And if I was at home I'd probably be able to tie it down even closer than that) - 6 months before the defrosting was cleared Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Aereo Posted August 11, 2009 Share Posted August 11, 2009 Correction to what I have written above: the red/white/blue fuselage roundel was instated with AMO A.520/39 dated 7 December, which amended AMO A.154/39 issued on 27 April. The fuselage roundel was changed again with the introduction of the yellow ring by signal X485 dated 1 May 1940. Since the 602 Sqn. Spitfires pictured above carry the code LO and type II roundels the photos must have been taken between December 1939 and the end of April 1940. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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