FAA Buffaloes on Crete

[Seahawk]

Am on the brink of moving from research to actually cutting plastic, using the Special Hobby F2A-2 kit (which includes most, and probably all, of the parts for a Buffalo Mk I). I'd be grateful for any thoughts/corrections/surmises to flesh out what I've been able to find out so far. But NB I'm more interested in photo evidence rather than artwork, some of which has been, err, imaginative.

My reference sources have been:

Cull: the Air War for Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete (text plus 1 photo of Brabner's Buffalo, always reported as AS419, inverted after crash, and 2 of u/i black "Z". All 3 very murky.)

Squadron Signal 81: F2A Buffalo (1 photo of an engineless Buffalo on its undercarriage, prob "Z", plus various pre-delivery shots of Belgian 339Bs)

Flugzeug Foto-Archiv 3: Kreta - Adererlass der Transportflieger-Verbaende (2 photo of what is probably Brabner's Buffalo, now right way up, though the serial looks much more like AS413 however much I want to see AS419)

RN Aces of WW2 (Osprey AotA 75): (1 photo of Brabner's Buffalo inverted after its crash, same one as in Cull)

FAA Aircraft of WW2 (Air Britain): aircraft histories.

Profile 217: several pics of FAA Buffaloes in the UK (AS424, -6 and -7) plus u/i a/c in an Egyptian hangar.

Configuration: as an ex-Belgian a/c it will have a cuffed 10' 3" prop with spinner, cranked pitot tube, small tailwheel, only one landing light (under port wing), no naval equipment, ring and bead sight, aluminium lacquer interior (even the instrument panel: see factory shot of new 339B in Squadron Signal p.20). Question 1: did Belgian/FAA Buffaloes have the underside window? Pictures are inconclusive (the view of Brabner's inverted aircraft is overexposed at the key place): I incline to think they didn't.

Markings: earth/dark green/sky undersides (no black wing). Type A1 fuselage roundel, Type A fin flash with 90 degree lower edge. Underwing Type A roundel. Serial in solid angular style. No "ROYAL NAVY" titles (!! Disappointing but the Flugzeug photos of AS413/9 are quite clear). No fuselage band. Conspicuous "FIRST AID" on white panel aft of starboard fuselage roundel. No (as in "not", "negative", not "number") 805 Squadron badge below cockpit as seen on 805 Squadron aircraft eg AX815 in the Western Desert (this a bit speculative because in photos the relevant areas are either not present (damage) or too dark but the badges were so big they ought to have shown up. Also most pics are of RHS, so badge could still have been on LHS.)

Individual markings: hmm. Either Brabner's AS419, uncoded (all the sources claim it was AS419 even if it does look uncommonly like AS413 in one of the Flugzeug photos) or "Z" if I can find out the serial. Now there seems to be agreement that only 3 Buffaloes (AS419, AS420, AX814) reached Crete. If it's not AS419, I have a 50:50 chance of guessing right. Question 2: does anyone actually know the serial of "Z"?

So: can anyone add to, or pick holes in any of the above? I shan't be terribly surprised to find there's not much more but anxious to harness the power of the Internet! Grateful for your input.

If you have been, thank you for reading!

Nick

Edited August 15, 2009 by Seahawk

[LDSModeller]

Hi Nick

I gather you are referring to the 1/32 Special Hobby Kit?

If you are planning to build a Belgian 339B then build it pretty much as an F2A-2 sans

arrestor hook and life raft container.

Problem with SH F2A-2 is that it does not contain the rear "pointed" tail cone

required to build any of the 339 series

The RAF 339 E cockpit is quite different to the F2A-2/Belgian 339B

Here is a link to my build (thus far) of an RAF 339E, using the RAF pilots notes

RAF Buffalo build

Here is a link to some photos of a some Belgian Buffalos, if you look at the top photo

it appears to me that the lower glazing was replaced by a cover (in the kit)

Belgian Buffalo

Here is a link to some photos of a F2A-2 cockpit, Jim Maas posted on the Buffalo forums

F2A-2 Cockpit

On my build you will see that the RAF Buffalo had the seat tubes curving over, the F2A-2 had seat mounting tubes

running from rear center floor section to the two over hangs on rear deck

If you read through my build, you will also note that the Special Hobby kit has a couple of

issues, being the Instrument panel is too far back, it should be flush with the edge of the cockpit

coaming.

The upper 0.5 cal MG do not have the spent shell chute which is quite prevalent on a large scale aircraft

Not sure if Belgian colours are the same as RAF, and I'm not 100 % sure if those "given" to the FAA

were repainted in FAA colours either?

Hope that helps

Regards

Alan

[Seahawk]

Hi Nick

I gather you are referring to the 1/32 Special Hobby Kit?

Here is a link to my build (thus far) of an RAF 339E, using the RAF pilots notes

Hi Alan

Thanks for responding.

No, actually I was talking about the 1/72 SH kit. I've been following your build with interest but a. it's an RAF spec aircraft and b. many of the changes you've made would overtax my eyesight in 1/72! I'm inclined to agree with you that Belgian aircraft will have fewer changes from the standard F2A-2. Thanks for the pics of Belgian aircraft which my Internet searches had not thrown up: they do seem to answer my question about the ventral window, at least.

Regards,

Nick

[iang]

Nick,

I have three close-up photos of two different FAA Buffalos in the ME. One appears to be AS 415, but could be AS 425. Not sure of the location, Dekheila or Crete, but they may be of some use. I've not seen them published before. PM me with your email address and I'll send you scans for your personal use. They are copyright, so I cannot post them here. I've also an original photo of an FAA Buffalo on HMS Eagle, from a private photo album, though it's probably a ships' photo. This has been published before, but my print is clearer.

[jimmaas]

Belgian Model 339B's did have the ventral window, at least as manufactured. There's an assembly area shot at that shows the glazing (covered for protection) in one of the shots.Getty Images

The instrument panel was not aluminum - the phot you are referring to is one of the aircraft during final construction and hasn't had the crackle black cover plate installed yet. Here's a shot of the cockpit - with the various placards in French (or Belgian French, which is slightly different - not Walloon or Flemish).

One minor point that is often overlooked - the Belgian 339B (and British 339E) did not have the formation lights on the top of the outer wing panels that appeared on all the other versions. Just cut and sand them off.

At least based on color photos, the colors were not MAP Dark Earth and Dark Green. The green appears noticeably darker and the brown is deeper and richer. Moreover, although the pattern at first look appears to be British, it isn't - it looks like someone had seen British camouflage and wanted to mimic it but it definitely isn't MAP pattern. As far as the undersurface, the Belgian aircraft were delivered with aluminum lacquer undersurfaces. Whether they were repainted by the RAF and/or Fleet Air Arm, I can't say.

I've come to the same conclusion as you on the code of 'Z' - it is a coin flip. By the way, if you have access to the French Buffalo book by Couston, the port side shows either two 'Z's or '7 Z'. But no 805 Sdn badge.

[Seahawk]

Jim

A privilege to hear from you: for me your name has been synonymous with research on the Buffalo ever since your articles on it in Airfix Magazine back in the seventies.

Ventral window: your picture looks conclusive. However, for my (FAA) purposes, the pictures from iang have confirmed pretty conclusively that they were blanked off on examples as issued to the FAA. Slightly off-topic: would be interested in your views on whether British spec Buffalo Is had the window. Pictures of Buffaloes being erected in the Far East are not conclusive for me: they show the aperture which could surely have been filled by either a window or a blanking plate.

Instrument panel: happy to be corrected and thanks for the photo. I'd noted your making a similar point about not believing the pale panels on wrecked aircraft in the Far East but couldn't see why it should apply to an apparently spanking new one.

Formation lights: point made, possibly by you, elsewhere in these forums. Noted.

Colours: thanks for the warning. The various pictures in the Profile and iang's pictures of FAA Buffaloes all suggest to me that the undersides were in sky. Think I'll assume MAP Dark Earth and Dark Green upper surfaces, running the risk that Belgian colours were retained.

Identity of "Z": this is where it gets really interesting. I don't have access to the French book by Couston. Does it contain actual photos of the aircraft or are we talking artwork? If the latter, I've already seen some speculative French artwork: based on reasonable assumptions, certainly, but actually not borne out by the photographic evidence unless they have access to info I don't (I found one yesterday saying definitely that "Z" had the 805 Sq badge on the port side only - and incidentally that it was AS420). If the former, I'm really interested and would love to see them. Of the 2 options I think "7Z" is more likely as a truncated version of "L7Z": according to Cull Lt Brabner ditched a Fulmar coded "L7Z" on 10 March and there was also another one "7M" (N1938). However query whether there would have been 2 "Z"s on the squadron and the L7 code on the Fulmars might anyway have been a carry-over from a previous subordination. (Chronology: Buffaloes arrive 6 March and are all u/s by 28 April.)

Anyway, many thanks for a helpful and authoritative contribution to the subject.

Regards

Nick

[Nick Millman]

FWIW Bowyer mentions that the Belgian ordered Buffalos (AS410-437 included) "came to Burtonwood for preparation in the summer of 1940. Many were transferred to the Royal Navy wearing green-brown/duck egg green camouflage as applied to RAF fighters." I presume from this that at least the undersurfaces were re-painted.

[jimmaas]

To Seahawk Nick: as far as the Belgian 339B's, I'd still stay with the window - the side shots Alan linked to are similar to many other photos which 'prove' the window isn't there, when in fact it was. As far as 339E, I think Mark Haselden has demonstrated pretty conclusively on Dan Ford's site that the window was there, both with photos and pilot references. Since the 339E's retained what was theoretically a 'bomb aiming window' and didn't have any fitting for bomb racks, and the Belgian 339B's were fitted for bomb racks (notice the throttle-like control in the lower left of the cockpit photo - that's a bomb release control) a window would make sense. The Finns could replace the glazing with plate since they were operating close to their fabrication facilities; the RAF/FAA 339B's were, politely put, orphans.

As for the upper surface colors, yes, they could have repainted the British-like-but-not colors. Not sure it would have been worth the trouble, and they kept the Belgian pattern. Re the undersurface color, they may have been repainted, as the "Fighting Colors" quote from '71-021 Nick' suggests. Of course there's a period bit of testimony from the April 1942 issue of Aero Modeller ("Brewster 'Buffalo'" by W. R. Jones, page 165, about building a stick and tissue model) which seems clearly based on the RAF/FAA 339B's and states"the underside is doped silver". Moreover, the Sky band/spinner shown on a photo of AS417 is markedly different from the undersurface color. But by the time the aircraft wandered into Egypt, who can say. Sky? Azure? Sky Grey? [sorry, I shouldn't have said that last...]

Re '7Z' or 'ZZ' - that's a photograph. not artwork (and oddly, is not one of the choices for artwork in the book). The aircraft lacks the cowling and appears to be taken at the same time as the familiar starboard side shot on Crete. To repeat - no squadron emblem - it would appear in part on the remaining section of the forward fuselage if it were there.

[Nick Millman]

I would hazard a mixture and gradually repainted. At Boscombe Down AS430 appears to retain silver painted undersurfaces whilst AS426 appears to have been re-painted in Sky. Those aircraft photographed in Egypt have undersurfaces that look too bright for Azure Blue and also it is perhaps too early for that colour. They also reveal a very hard demarcation on the cowling different from the aircraft when painted in Belgian colours.

339E's window appears to be present.

Incidentally lengthy correspondence with a Japanese Army fighter pilot about 10 years ago included a description of Buffalo colours on an aircraft seen quite close up over Malaya in a firing pass. It rolled away as he dived past it and he remembered the undersides as being "sora iro" - which means "sky blue".

Edited August 17, 2009 by Nick Millman

[Seahawk]

I would hazard a mixture and gradually repainted. At Boscombe Down AS430 appears to retain silver painted undersurfaces whilst AS426 appears to have been re-painted in Sky. Those aircraft photographed in Egypt have undersurfaces that look too bright for Azure Blue and also it is perhaps too early for that colour. They also reveal a very hard demarcation on the cowling different from the aircraft when painted in Belgian colours.

Don't think I have a pic of AS430 but suspect AS412 was in Belgian colours (see plate 283 on p. 188 of "The Secret Years"). I'm maybe stretching the evidence but, extrapolating from that pic, I suggest that other pointers that an aircraft has been repainted, in addition to the hard upper/lower demarcation line, are yellow prop tips and the white FIRST AID marking at 8 o'clock from the starboard fuselage roundel (in fact there are other similar stencils on white backgrounds on port and starboard fuselage sides).

Nick

[Seahawk]

Jim

Windows on 339Es: thanks. Content to run with your advice (ie window present).

Windows on 339Bs: agree the pics Alan linked to look as if they could have been retouched. However for my purposes I have now enough pictures of FAA Buffaloes (incl those from iang) to have satisfied myself that the windows were normally blanked off on ex-Belgian Buffaloes as issued to the FAA.

Upper surface colours: agree your point that repainting Belgian dark earth and dark green with British dark earth and dark green seems a bit pointless. On the other hand the tonal variation between the 2 uppersurface colours on the only decent quality pictures I can find of Belgian aircraft outside British hands (US reg NX90B and NX98B at RCAF Dartmouth (see Air Enthusiast 1 p. 75)) looks greater than on many of those in RAF hands. WR Jones article: well, he was right, wasn't he? They would have arrived in those colours and some eg AS412 may have retained at least silver undersides.

"ZZ"/"7Z": thanks for confirmation that we're dealing with a photo, and hence confirmation that 805 Sq badge not carried. Means I can save my Pavla transfers for a model of AX815 in the Western Desert. Wonder if that one had the emblem on the starboard side of the fuselage??!!

Thanks for your contributions.

Nick

[jimmaas]

Seahawk - glad to be of help. When you portray the blanked off windows, remember they still need the two race-track shaped openings at the rear. Those were carbon monoxide vents and it would be a bad idea to have those blocked up (your model pilot wold not thank you!). That, by the way, also applies to the F2A-3 which didn have blanked off windows, but not to the Finnish 239's, since on the F2A-1/239 the CO vents were on the rear fuselage, under the fin. Agree that the brown color was subject to fading - the pattern on the left-in-the-open a/c on Martinique was very high contrast.

Nick M - tried to reply but your mailbox needs clearing.

[Nick Millman]

Jim - Oops! Now cleared!

Seahawk - I found a message from you re the Dupont chart - did I send it? I now have a better scan of it.

[Seahawk]

Seahawk - I found a message from you re the Dupont chart - did I send it? I now have a better scan of it.

Nick

Yes, you sent me a link to your website on 11 June: I've found it very useful. If there's a better version available, I'd be v interested please.

Nick

[Seahawk]

Seahawk - glad to be of help. When you portray the blanked off windows, remember they still need the two race-track shaped openings at the rear. Those were carbon monoxide vents and it would be a bad idea to have those blocked up (your model pilot wold not thank you!). That, by the way, also applies to the F2A-3 which didn have blanked off windows, but not to the Finnish 239's, since on the F2A-1/239 the CO vents were on the rear fuselage, under the fin. Agree that the brown color was subject to fading - the pattern on the left-in-the-open a/c on Martinique was very high contrast.

Jim

Thanks again. Reinforces my belief that the windows were blanked off because in some pictures I can't see the window but I can see the vents.

Thanks to you, Nick M, Ian G and Alan for your generous and thoughtful contributions: Britmodeller at its best.

Nick

Edited August 18, 2009 by Seahawk

[Nick Millman]

Another snippet of a clue I came across by chance. Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown's account of flying a B-339B Buffalo at RNAS Yeovilton in early 1941*:-

"These aircraft had been stripped of all specialist naval equipment and ferried from Canada to Britain aboard HMS Furious. They arrived in July 1940 and were assembled and repainted at Burtonwood."

This appears to corroborate Bowyer but is more specific about the repainting.

* From 'Wings of the Weird and Wonderful Vol.2' (Airlife, 1985)