AnonymousAA72 Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Sort of stumbled on this one in one of the other Hunter threads............and maybe its all a bit too obvious when you think about it, and is it one of those things you forgot you knew???... Anyway we all know that RAF Hunters had their lower colours changed from "High Speed Silver" to Light Aircraft Grey from about 1966/7 onwards - but its been difficult to tell in b&w AND a lot of colour photo's what lower colour a particular A/C actually had. Well I may have the answer....I've studied loads of photo's in as many Hunter books as I could get my mitts on and I've come to this conclusion...Hunters with LAG undersides had the upper camouflage extended by a couple of inches along the leading edges of the wings - whereas those with Silver didn't! Any thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 (edited) In that case some of the captioning on the Radfan Hunters page is wrong, as they show aircraft in 1963 with wrap round edges. But there seems to be some degree of truth in the observation - need to back to the files and dig out the stuff on the intriduction of light grey undersides and see if that is mentioned - does it translate to other types? Edited January 27, 2008 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted January 27, 2008 Author Share Posted January 27, 2008 In that case some of the captioning on the Radfan Hunters page is wrong, as they show aircraft in 1963 with wrap round edges. Apart from the cover shot - with XG255 coming in to land , I could only find one FGA9 with wrap around - XE616/"D"? Labelled "PeterW mashalling out Ksar" (tried to copy a link but it didn't work !). In this and other photo's you'll see that the nose demarkation line is very low and very non-standard - this could be an exception proving the rule....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham T Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Yep this subject can run & run, in fact I think it has been! According to "Hunter Squadrons of the Royal Air Force" by Richard L Ward, the underside colour changed from HSS to LAG "in about 1966" & "From the date on which any change is officially promulgated, it can be several months or even years before all the aircraft affected by it actually comply, depending upon the urgency of the change & of course, anomolies can always be found - there are quite a few in this book". I always used to assume that toned down (tactical) national markings meant LAG undersides but on the basis of the above thim might not be the case, except, where an a/c went in for the new markings to be applied, might they not have taken the opportunity of painting the LAG if not already done? Or maybe the other way around - an a/c goes in for LAG repaint & tactical markings applied at the same time. So that's cleared that up then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 There are lots of aircraft with the LACG undersides but three colour roundels - the tactical ones didn't come in until 1971-ish, by which time most Hunters had left the front line. There WAS a 2 Sqn FR10 which carried 'modified' roundels fvor a short while as part of the experiments that led to the tac roundel - it had the white overpainted with blue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted January 27, 2008 Share Posted January 27, 2008 Unless you're doing a freshly-painted airframe, it's a mite academic. When Halton had Hunters in the workshops, I had to rub the surface hard, to see what colour they were originally. Standing between an untouched F4, and an F6, I couldn't tell the colour from 6 feet away. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Think what you were getting-at is that there are theoretically no aircraft with silver undersides and toned-down roundels? As far as I know this is indeed the case - I've never seen a photo to indicate anything to the contrary. Even the FR.10 that Dave mentions had LAG undersides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 Yep this subject can run & run, in fact I think it has been! According to "Hunter Squadrons of the Royal Air Force" by Richard L Ward, the underside colour changed from HSS to LAG "in about 1966" & "From the date on which any change is officially promulgated, it can be several months or even years before all the aircraft affected by it actually comply, depending upon the urgency of the change & of course, anomolies can always be found - there are quite a few in this book". I always used to assume that toned down (tactical) national markings meant LAG undersides but on the basis of the above thim might not be the case, except, where an a/c went in for the new markings to be applied, might they not have taken the opportunity of painting the LAG if not already done? Or maybe the other way around - an a/c goes in for LAG repaint & tactical markings applied at the same time. So that's cleared that up then. I think we're all agreed then! But LACG was introduced from 1966 onwards....Toned down roundels were introduced from 1972 onwards (earlier on Harriers?) I'd imagine all Hunters (all in second-line units) had been repainted by then? Interestingly in the relevant WAP book there's a great "official line up" photo of 20 Sqn with "Airfix's" XJ???/"XX" with white serials and (I assume - given the wrap round on the leading edge) Light Aircraft Grey undersides- the aircraft oppsite does not have the wrap around on the wing leading edge. White serials (another can o'worms!!) when were they dropped? My IV Sqn FR10 has LAG undersides - with wrap around on the leading edge. And as Edgar says - its virtually impossible to detect on real aircraft which is LAG or which is HSS, BUT would anyone seriously paint a model of a Hunter F1/2/4 or 5 with LAG undersides? Or the underside of a 1TWU/79 Sqn Sqn FGA9 in Silver?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nev Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I'm no expert, or acu-freak like most in this thread, but I gotta be honest - when I look at colour photos of Hunters from the 50s and 60s, the undersides look clearly, unmistakably, GREY! So I get a bit when modellers get their knickers in a twist on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 (edited) well you'd be hard-pressed to find a Hunter 1/2/3/4/5 with LAG undersides - it's a pretty safe bet that if you chose to model one of these, it would have silver undersides. It's the F6 that lurked in the "grey area" (excuse the pun!) oh, hang on, Nev has put me on his Ignore list so he obviosuly prefers to live in ignorance! Bless! Edited January 28, 2008 by Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 I'm no expert, or acu-freak like most in this thread, but I gotta be honest - when I look at colour photos of Hunters from the 50s and 60s, the undersides look clearly, unmistakably, GREY! So I get a bit when modellers get their knickers in a twist on this issue. I dunno about that Nev., Painting models in accurate colours (or as accurate as possible!) is a massive industry, and in my mind, is as important as getting the wing shape or fuselage shape right! So..paint the underside of your Hunter any colour you like, you say? Okay, what next? An authentic coloured Spitfire in say Snot Green/Vermin Brown and Scorpion Green? Would that be worth getting your knickers in a knot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 well you'd be hard-pressed to find a Hunter 1/2/3/4/5 with LAG undersides - it's a pretty safe bet that if you chose to model one of these, it would have silver undersides. It's the F6 that lurked in the "grey area" (excuse the pun!) Exactly, but my point was that AS there is no, or little perceived, difference between LAG and faded HSS would anyone modelling a Hunter F1/2/4 or 5 (The Mk 3 was red!!) seriously use LAG, or silver on a ca.1984 FGA9? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham T Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I'm no expert, or acu-freak like most in this thread, but I gotta be honest - when I look at colour photos of Hunters from the 50s and 60s, the undersides look clearly, unmistakably, GREY! So I get a bit when modellers get their knickers in a twist on this issue. Relax Nev, no one's getting their knickers in a twist. At least we haven't got to the ludicrous levels that HS did over the colour of the area behind the P47 Razorback windows or the "Malta Blue" Spitfires! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 In service, the Silver undersides certainly didn't look as bright and shiny as model metallic paints, but neither did they look as light as LAG - whatever state one that had not been repainted for years might get into. Looks very much like the arguments mentioned on Hyperscale: those who can't see any difference (or don't care) are attempting to argue that there wasn't any, can't have been any, it doesn't matter anyway, and attempting to shout down those who are interested in the details of aircraft camouflage. I've just read a review of a D.520 that describes the type as "far...out of the ordinary". Keep fighting, or the philistines will win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenMG Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I am involved with the restoration of some full sized stuff and, to me, getting the colour scheme correct is crucial. I am one of those that is very "picky" about the colours and, frankly, I don't see what's wrong with that. Let's not forget that restored aircraft in museums today are just another type of documentation on the types past. With that in mind the colour scheme issue with Hunters isn't actually all that complicated so long as you abide by certain rules and check the references for the particular aircraft in question. The basic rules are, Hunter F.1, F.2, F,4 and F.5 - out of service long before the change to LAG so can only have HSS undersides with Type D roundels (the 3 colour jobs). Easy. Hunter F.6, F.6A, FGA.9 and FR.10 - all spanned the changeover times ('just about' in the case of the F.6) between HSS to LAG and Type D to Lo-Viz roundels. This means that it depends on the timing as to what was on the aircraft. However because the Lo-Viz roundels weren't introduced until approx. 5 years later than LAG, it is not valid to have a mixture of Lo-Viz and HSS. As the FGA.9 was delivered in 1958 and the FR.10 in 1960 these can all have either colour and roundel type. These are my basic valid combinations then... F.1 - F.5 - HSS undersides/Type D roundel only F.6 - HSS undersides - Type D roundel (most likely) - LAG undersides - Type D roundel (just about valid) F.6A, FGA.9 & FR.10 - HSS undersides - Type D roundel - LAG undersides - Type D or Lo-Viz roundel (most likely) These, I would argue, are the most common combinations. There are, as ever, exceptions to the rules to consider but if you stick to that then you will be accurate in the vast majority of cases. Frankly anyone who argues that "they look the same" or "it doesn't matter" is wrong/doesn't care/trying to justify a cock-up. It's not just modellers of course - see the F.1 at Newark Air Museum with it's LAG undersides as an example, although I do accept there may be financial pressures in these cases and they may have to use existing stocks of paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 I am involved with the restoration of some full sized stuff and, to me, getting the colour scheme correct is crucial. I am one of those that is very "picky" about the colours and, frankly, I don't see what's wrong with that. Let's not forget that restored aircraft in museums today are just another type of documentation on the types past.With that in mind the colour scheme issue with Hunters isn't actually all that complicated so long as you abide by certain rules and check the references for the particular aircraft in question. The basic rules are, Hunter F.1, F.2, F,4 and F.5 - out of service long before the change to LAG so can only have HSS undersides with Type D roundels (the 3 colour jobs). Easy. Hunter F.6, F.6A, FGA.9 and FR.10 - all spanned the changeover times ('just about' in the case of the F.6) between HSS to LAG and Type D to Lo-Viz roundels. This means that it depends on the timing as to what was on the aircraft. However because the Lo-Viz roundels weren't introduced until approx. 5 years later than LAG, it is not valid to have a mixture of Lo-Viz and HSS. As the FGA.9 was delivered in 1958 and the FR.10 in 1960 these can all have either colour and roundel type. These are my basic valid combinations then... F.1 - F.5 - HSS undersides/Type D roundel only F.6 - HSS undersides - Type D roundel (most likely) - LAG undersides - Type D roundel (just about valid) F.6A, FGA.9 & FR.10 - HSS undersides - Type D roundel - LAG undersides - Type D or Lo-Viz roundel (most likely) These, I would argue, are the most common combinations. There are, as ever, exceptions to the rules to consider but if you stick to that then you will be accurate in the vast majority of cases. Frankly anyone who argues that "they look the same" or "it doesn't matter" is wrong/doesn't care/trying to justify a cock-up. It's not just modellers of course - see the F.1 at Newark Air Museum with it's LAG undersides as an example, although I do accept there may be financial pressures in these cases and they may have to use existing stocks of paint. Totally concur with all of that Stephen, thanks! In addition it should be noted that the F6 did in fact appear with lo-viz markings well into the seventies - mostly in second line units with Shadow Squadron markings....63 & 234 in particular......(and a wrap-around 12 Sqn of course when the Buccaneer's were grounded in 1980!) Now, back to my original posting.....the wrap under of upper colours on the wing leading edges? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 (edited) Now, back to my original posting.....the wrap under of upper colours on the wing leading edges? Having examined a fair old quantity of Hunter pics over the weekend, I think you may well have found an identification point. Are there any other types in that scheme at this time? Canberra? I doubt any Javelins were re-painted Edited January 28, 2008 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 Does that mean that the upper surfaces were repainted too? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Fleming Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 (edited) Does that mean that the upper surfaces were repainted too?John I would guess probably - the RAF having more money to spend in those days. Bill - re the cover shot on the Radfan site - note the silver sabrinas on a grey underside......... http://www.radfanhunters.co.uk/ Edited January 28, 2008 by Dave Fleming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted January 28, 2008 Author Share Posted January 28, 2008 Does that mean that the upper surfaces were repainted too?John Good one John! I'd agree with Dave and say a big probable Yes! I'd imagine it was a whole re-paint, would doubt them just painting the undersides , but there again......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keefr22 Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 So..paint the underside of your Hunter any colour you like, you say? Okay, what next? An authentic coloured Spitfire in say Snot Green/Vermin Brown and Scorpion Green? Would that be worth getting your knickers in a knot? Weeelllll, I did once paint an Airfix F-111 in RAF dark green, dark earth and.......GLOSS lime green!! But I was about 12 at the time & they were the only paints I had!!!! Sorry, got dizzy & fell off topic again then.... Keef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I noted the comment about Newark's F1. I don't think painting "howlers" are down to cost, it just seems to be a lack of research or a simple lack of interest. For example, when they repainted a Sea Hawk many years ago, they copied a colour scheme from SAM - I kid you not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenMG Posted January 28, 2008 Share Posted January 28, 2008 I noted the comment about Newark's F1. I don't think painting "howlers" are down to cost, it just seems to be a lack of research or a simple lack of interest. For example, when they repainted a Sea Hawk many years ago, they copied a colour scheme from SAM - I kid you not. I think you're right Tim and, in a lot of cases, it's down to bad/indifferent research which, for museums which should be accurately preserving history, is unforgivable. I only gave Newark the benefit of the doubt because I know that before the Hunter they repainted a Canberra in the same colours and assumed they had paint left over! Not much of an excuse though all the same. I also get grumpy when museums don't bother to finish the job and add all the stencilling etc. that gives an aircraft it's proper 'look'. They just don't look finished or even 'real' sometimes. See the (faux) FR.10 at the City of Norwich Aviation Museum for a perfect example of how it SHOULD be done. I assisted the chap who was responsible for that repaint with stencilling diagrams etc. and he used them accurately and properly. Result - a truly beautiful paint job that makes the aeroplane look 100% 'right'. Link - Norwich 'FR.10' Sorry to wander off-topic again Bill! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnonymousAA72 Posted January 29, 2008 Author Share Posted January 29, 2008 See the (faux) FR.10 at the City of Norwich Aviation Museum for a perfect example of how it SHOULD be done. I assisted the chap who was responsible for that repaint with stencilling diagrams etc. and he used them accurately and properly. Result - a truly beautiful paint job that makes the aeroplane look 100% 'right'. Link - Norwich 'FR.10'Sorry to wander off-topic again Bill! I'm going to be very churlish (or should that be childish?) here Stephen... this aircraft has LAG undersides, yet there is no wrap around of the upper colours on the leading edge of the wings......................... (But seriously , what a truly fantastic restoration job - you should be proud of yourself with that one. A bit of 1:1 scale modelling Eh?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephenMG Posted January 29, 2008 Share Posted January 29, 2008 (But seriously , what a truly fantastic restoration job - you should be proud of yourself with that one. A bit of 1:1 scale modelling Eh?) Oh heck, I can't take any credit for that beauty. All I did was dig out and photocopy the stencilling plan. The aircraft is actually owned by Mick Jennings MBE, ex-PRO at RAF Coltishall and bl**dy nice bloke. He, with help from the chaps at Colt, painted the aircraft a couple of years back, and a stunning job they made of it too. The best Hunter in preservation just about anywhere in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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