NIMROD ALERT

[Giorgio N]

P-8 would be logical as well as buying the tanker/transport variants of the same airframe. As a result spares commonality would hugely decreased cost of maintainence etc.

The P-8 would have been a logical choice if selected from the start. Unfortunately the P-8 didn't really exist back then, at least not as we know it now.

Anway it will be a few years before the P-8 is operational, 2013 is given as the date for the first USN planes, if nothing happens in the meantime of course.

I'm not too convinced about the tanker/transport variants of the P-8. It is after all a 737-800, a bit small in my opinion to fulfil the needs of the RAF in the tanker or transport roles.

Guess in the end I agree that the better choice at this point is to keep working on the Nimrod. And yes, I will buy an airfix kit, not scared by the review !!

Giorgio

[Dave Fleming]

NO! NO! NO! That would just mean paying BAE EVEN MORE money to get them to modify the A320. It would end up being even later and even more expensive than the MR4! We have to stick with MR4 or buy something off the shelf. One day we will learn....

BAE are out of Airbus Industries these days.

[Tizzy]

The way i see it the kit may or may not have some build issues but a lot of the modellers on this site seem able to produce amazing results from some horrible kits.I doubt the Nimrod comes close to being horrible.I dont think it will be an easy shake or bake model either.What i do expect is that the main details are accurate and a good result is possible without major surgery.We should be happy that this model is nearly with us and look forward to its arrival.We should not let one slightly negative comment in overall positive review put us off.Heres to seeing some amazing Britmodeller Nimrods this year.

[Vlamgat9]

BAE are out of Airbus Industries these days.

Indeed but who would we be commissioning to fit all the systems etc? Inevitably it would be BAE...

[Derek Bradshaw]

Hmm...Getting a bit political here guys...it's very easy to bash something when you're not in posession of all of the facts/background!

Anyway, back to the post. I saw both the kit spues and the made up model of the Airfix Nimrod at Telford, and I was quite impressed. I think that many modellers shall turn this kit into a really wonderful masterpiece - God knows, we've waited long enough for such a kit.

Derek

Edited January 29, 2008 by Derek Bradshaw

[entlim]

Hear, Hear..............

[Nev]

IS there a viable alternative to MRA4?

There's always the Kawasaki P-1

And at least that would mean a kit by Hasegawa - maybe not so much whining about fit, detail and accuracy as an Airfix kit sight unseen? Or maybe not?

[Tim]

Roland, we all already know that the MRA4 programme is behind schedule - it has been ever since it started. Ignore the hype and the political point-scoring; it is going to enter service, and not far off the currently-projected schedule by all accounts.

As for the Airfix kit, I entirely agree with the previous posts - if some model magazine allows the implication to be made that the kit is in some way deficient, then shame on them, but I'm sure we see the wider picture. It's a Nimrod, and everyone that has seen the sprues or the built-up tests shots think it looks excellent. I gave it a close look too at SMW and it looked very good in my opinion apart from the flight deck glazing area which looked a little odd, but having seen photos of subsequent models, I think the builder just hadn't done a very good job of that bit of the build. I think it would be particularly sad if anyone is churlish enough to carp at any aspect of the kit when we've been denied a Nimrod kit for so long. My only complaint has been at the silly "Limited Edition" way it's being sold!

Edited January 29, 2008 by Tim

[Mike]

Strictly speaking, it's not a limited edition, more of a limited run. They're producing all that they think they can sell in a reasonably short period of time, and then it'll be retired from the catalogue. The run consists of all of the trade pre-orders (not necessarily already ordered by modellers) by the time the run begins, plus an additional number that wasn't divulged when I was speaking to the guys on the Airfix stand at the show.

The end result is, that if you've not already pre-ordered one, there's a good chance you'll be able to pick one off the shelf, providing your LMS or IMS has ordered a sufficient quantity. Presuming of course, that the numbers add up.

Now I'm heading into Speculationville... I imagine that once this run is gone, demand will build up again over time, and another release will be forthcoming if the demand is sufficient.

[Wolfpack]

We have to stick with MR4 or buy something off the shelf. One day we will learn....

One day we will, when some idiot in whitehall realises that BAe want the whole of the UKGDP to finish their latest cock-up.

Do we really need Nimrod MRA4 to scour the seas of Afghanistan for stray nuke boats, or has the kit changed to follow the new designation Mohammed/Recce/Attack4?

It's our money these bozo's are spending and yet BAe can never deliver on time and on budget.

W

ps

Still don't want a Nimrod kit but I say again, good on yer Airfix.

[AnonymousAA72]

Strictly speaking, it's not a limited edition, more of a limited run. They're producing all that they think they can sell in a reasonably short period of time, and then it'll be retired from the catalogue. The run consists of all of the trade pre-orders (not necessarily already ordered by modellers) by the time the run begins, plus an additional number that wasn't divulged when I was speaking to the guys on the Airfix stand at the show.

The end result is, that if you've not already pre-ordered one, there's a good chance you'll be able to pick one off the shelf, providing your LMS or IMS has ordered a sufficient quantity. Presuming of course, that the numbers add up.

Now I'm heading into Speculationville... I imagine that once this run is gone, demand will build up again over time, and another release will be forthcoming if the demand is sufficient.

Thats absolutely correct Mike. I have mine on order and have been informed by the big "H" - my supplier - that there will be "plenty" to go around. I've heard numbers bandied around as to how many that is - and if these numbers are correct we'll have enough for a good few months, but despite these assurances I won't be happy until I have ALL of the Nimrod's I've ordered in my greasy mitts!! I'm still waiting on the bleedin' Tardis sets after all of this time!!!!

[geoff m]

They did the same on the TSR2

I saw a built version of the kit at the Bolton show weekend before last and it looked fantastic. I agree that £40 seems a lot but you do seem to get a lot for the money.

[thx6667]

Bill may correct me here, but I think the difference with the Nimrod is that its up to the trade to order enough stocks, getting modellers to pre-order just gives them an idea of how many they're likely to need. So if one retailer only gets about five order, they'll probably not stock much beyond that, but if one gets 100, they'll probably order some extra on top for in-store purchases.

[AnonymousAA72]

Bill may correct me here, but I think the difference with the Nimrod is that its up to the trade to order enough stocks, getting modellers to pre-order just gives them an idea of how many they're likely to need. So if one retailer only gets about five order, they'll probably not stock much beyond that, but if one gets 100, they'll probably order some extra on top for in-store purchases.

That is more or less my understanding. Problem was though that "Airfix/Humbrol" asked the trade (2 years ago?) how many Nimrod's they wanted. Of course at that time there was no way of knowing an awful lot of factors, and in my case I inherited a shop (and the previous owner's order book).

Since then, when Kevin asked his customers on numbers, I've been inundated with requests, and in all honesty I can't guarantee these numbers until I receive the kits - even though I could have quadrupelled - at least- Kevin's original number!.

I'm reliably informed by my suppliers that there won't be a problem in getting these kits. So I won't take money off of anyone until I have their kit in the shop - ready to dispatch to them- simply because of this uncertainty!

[Tim]

Actually, if that's how Hornby propose to handle things, I think that's fair enough. Seems entirely reasonable to produce enough kits to satisfy demand plus a few more for good luck. One assumes that they didn't apply this policy with the TRS2 though - hope they get the stock business right before the bigger version comes long!

Suppose the only downside of this approach is that the Ebay sharks will still be snapping-up kits ready to sell them at twice the price in six months...

[magman2]

Airfix Nimrods now in the UK,just waiting for the decals to go in

Edited January 30, 2008 by magman2

[Geoff_B]

Actually, if that's how Hornby propose to handle things, I think that's fair enough. Seems entirely reasonable to produce enough kits to satisfy demand plus a few more for good luck. One assumes that they didn't apply this policy with the TRS2 though - hope they get the stock business right before the bigger version comes long!

Suppose the only downside of this approach is that the Ebay sharks will still be snapping-up kits ready to sell them at twice the price in six months...

Actually you forgot to take into account the situation of Airfix when the TSR2 was decided upon. At the time Airfix had just been used as cash cow which had limited new kits to the occasional 48th scale jobbie. No 1/72 kits had been created for a few years, couple this with the old kit mountain at Hull where kits had been churned out by Heller with little eye to the actual demand. Over £4million in excess stock was sold off for peanuts and the distribution centre contracted out to Southampton.

Couple this with the estimated demand of TSR being calculated at about 7000 max resulted in the idea of the limited edition kit of just one run rather than churning out 1000s each year which would just refill the warehouse. The limited run marketing was intended to stoke up deman to about 10,000 kits to allow them break even as they waent with The cheapest option for producing the kit to minimise the risk, this also explains why some of the detail was limited as to add more would increase the cost and thus minimise the risk of not breaking even.

As it happened demand actually outstripped the estimated number by some margin, but due to the gaff in marketing the 10,000 figure had to be adhered as they had used it in the advertising. (They managed to do 10K for UK and the rest for export rather than just one lot of 10K to ensure they fullfilled thier orders)

With the Nimrod the following year they had learnt form thier marketing gaff and did not quote a maximum figure. The only odd thing i can see is why the 48th Canberras are not limited runs as well, i doubt with 4 different models they will get anywhere near the Nimrod sales for each type.

G

[thx6667]

Actually you forgot to take into account the situation of Airfix when the TSR2 was decided upon. At the time Airfix had just been used as cash cow which had limited new kits to the occasional 48th scale jobbie. No 1/72 kits had been created for a few years, couple this with the old kit mountain at Hull where kits had been churned out by Heller with little eye to the actual demand. Over £4million in excess stock was sold off for peanuts and the distribution centre contracted out to Southampton.

Couple this with the estimated demand of TSR being calculated at about 7000 max resulted in the idea of the limited edition kit of just one run rather than churning out 1000s each year which would just refill the warehouse. The limited run marketing was intended to stoke up deman to about 10,000 kits to allow them break even as they waent with The cheapest option for producing the kit to minimise the risk, this also explains why some of the detail was limited as to add more would increase the cost and thus minimise the risk of not breaking even.

As it happened demand actually outstripped the estimated number by some margin, but due to the gaff in marketing the 10,000 figure had to be adhered as they had used it in the advertising. (They managed to do 10K for UK and the rest for export rather than just one lot of 10K to ensure they fullfilled thier orders)

With the Nimrod the following year they had learnt form thier marketing gaff and did not quote a maximum figure. The only odd thing i can see is why the 48th Canberras are not limited runs as well, i doubt with 4 different models they will get anywhere near the Nimrod sales for each type.

G

Geoff is spot on, although to be fair the "10,000" figure varied depending on who you spoke to in Humbrol and one of the problems was that various inaccurate figures were then quoted as gospel on the airfix.com forums as well as stuff about the tooling being "soft" moulds, that they'd only last a limited time, that the kit would never be reissued ever again - Humbrol biggest marketing gaff was not moderating their forums.

I don't think Humbrol underestimated the demand for the TSR.2 as a subject per se, I think they underestimated the scenario where people who would buy them and either hoard them because they were limited or start reselling them at inflated prices on eBay. Truth be told, had TSR.2 been an "open sale" kit, I think it would have struggled to have sold 7,000 units in its first year.

As Geoff says, the idea was to minimise tooling costs and the kit wasn't originally going to have either an open bomb bay or open cockpits. As for the genesis of the kit, that goes back to the mid-90s and was always submitted to Humbrol as a possible project and turned down. By around early 2003 Humbrol had been studying various examples of pre-orders for limited kits and had expressed interest in trying this out and TSR.2 was suggested. By autumn 2003 they'd more or less been sold on the idea - on a trip to Cosford in September that same year I was asked to photograph they TSR.2 if possible and by chance she was sitting in the car park while they were moving stuff around! Geoff and his SIG added to the momentum with their TSR.2 box at the IPMS Nats a couple of months later and the kit was a go.

As for why the Nimrod is a limited kit and the Canberras not, I think that's for the most part because the Canberra has a huge international appeal due to its export success, whereas the Nimrod is RAF only. You'll sell more Canberras to the rest of the world than you will Nimrods.

[John]

I completely agree with Hornby's reasoning vis-a-vis the Nimrod and Canberras. I can't see the Canberras in either scale being the commercial risk that the Nimrod would otherwise be. I also have high hopes for the business model that was started with the TSR2 and continues with tne Nimrod - if they can sell pre-sell enough units to cover costs and deliver a profit in an ecceptable time frame, then why not work like that? It opens the way for the production of other niche interest kits, like the Valiant.

John

[Geoff_B]

I completely agree with Hornby's reasoning vis-a-vis the Nimrod and Canberras. I can't see the Canberras in either scale being the commercial risk that the Nimrod would otherwise be. I also have high hopes for the business model that was started with the TSR2 and continues with tne Nimrod - if they can sell pre-sell enough units to cover costs and deliver a profit in an ecceptable time frame, then why not work like that? It opens the way for the production of other niche interest kits, like the Valiant.

John

If the Canberras were 1/72 then i would agree that 4 different kits in active production would be viable, but in 1/48th scale i'm not so sure, especially with CA beating them to the initial demand. But it does mean we get the 1/72 version scaled down afterwards so thats nice

As for if Nimrod sells well - well to be honest Airfix have already sold up, the productyion figure was based on orders by the distributors and shops so these have already been sold by Airfix. Its down to the third parties to ensure it sells well to the punters.

As for other niche production, if you see the new Airfix Catalogue then they say that the 1/48 TSR2 is the classic edition kit for 2008 which implies they have a similar limed run range in mind each year for niche subjects.

G

[Tim]

Well as I said previously, I personally think it's entirely reasonable to only produce sufficient kits to meet demand (plus a few extra) so I just hope Hornby turn-out to be good at predicting the right figures. My gripe was that there were rather less TSR2's than required, but if this deficiency is being addressed for the Nimrod etc., then that's fair enough I think. Have to say I'm also doubtful whether the Canberra will sell all that well. Okay, I'm sure it will be popular (I want a good few!) but I can't see how it will be sufficiently popular to be sold in a different way to the Nimrod and TSR2. It's all very well saying the Canberra has export potential but I'm not convinced that there's much significant overseas interest for it other than in the USA (the B-57 kit). I would imagine that anyone in any other country who has an interest in Canberras would have already snapped-up a CA kit. It's all very well to think of all the Canberra's export successes but in terms of kit buyers? Peru? Venezuela? France? India? Hmm...

I wish Hornby well with their efforts but I hope they don't get their fingers burned with the Canberra. As has been said, there's 72nd scale ones on the way too, and the CA range is still around...

[AnonymousA667]

My gripe was that there were rather less TSR2's than required

Beg to differ, but if you want one they can still be found in shops. I could have bought a couple from the RAF Museum shop a few weeks ago at RRP. I'd wager there's still examples of this kit to be found if you look hard enough, without trawling ebay and paying over the odds. It was sellers speculating and buyers panicking that created artificial demand. If everybody stays cool there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to buy a Nimrod over the counter even if you don't have any ordered.

peebeep

[John]

Were there fewer TSR2s than required? It wasn't a subject I had a great deal of interest in, but I didn't have any trouble picking up a kit from a local retailer. Its also not like it wasn't well trumpeted in advance, so anyone who wanted one and didn't get one has only themselves to blame!

As for the Canberras, I don't think you have to live in india to want to model an IAF aircraft. I'm not sure the prior existence of the CA kits means much either, they aim at a different sector of the market.

John

[Dave Fleming]

There are big modelling communities in Australia, Argentina, South Africa, New Zealand & Germany as well as the US.

Not sure what the numbers are for CA kits, but I'd be surprised if it's more than 1500 kits per runs

[Mentalguru]

Jeeesus- this thread has had 2500 views!!!