Seafire III - Markings Help

[alvin5182]

Gents:

I require some assistance with regard to markings of a Seafire III of 807 Sqn FAA aboard HMS Hunter in 1945. The particular a/c I'm interested in is PR171, marked as D5*J. I have numerous references to this a/c but the evidence is conflicting. I have the old Profile publication, Squdron Spitfire in Action, Sqn Fleet Air Arm 1939-1945, Sturtivant book on A/C and Squadrons of the FAA, a couple of different magazines. (SAM and SAMI) as well as decals 1) For the Octopus kit, 2)The "old" late, lamented, Tally Ho decals from Canada and a few others.

What I need to know is what is the "real colour" of the spinner? Some references say black, some say Sky, and some photos suggest white. Secondly, was the script "Royal Navy" in place over the serial # and thirdly, were there roundels present on the under surface of the wing? Oh yeah, was there a belly tank present?

I guess what I really need is a photo that can answer some or all of these questions. I have seen several photos that can't answer these questions (ie: the one in the Spitfire in Action book showing the a/c on it's nose)

Just hoping!!!! Any help would be appreciated.

Alvin5182

[Gwart]

I have no pics of the one you want but i've found several of sister aircraft,all from mid to late '45.

There is a side profile of D5J in the Aviation Workshops Seafire profile.

It has a black nose in the illustration,with India blue codes,the aircraft no. and RN titles are shown as standard.

There is a side profile in G thomas's Eyes for the Pheonix same as above but with a 'dirty white' nose.

In the same book are photo's of D5X -White nose,dirty white or pale blue/grey codes-clearly outlined in black.

D5N-same as above

Also possibly D5A?-same as above but with no outlines on the code.

In the FAA at War,theres 2 pics of 807 Seafires from the same time period,shown are :-

D5Y-White nose,dirty white or pale blue/grey codes-clearly outlined in black.

D5Q-Black/Dk Blue nose ,dirty white or pale blue/grey codes-clearly outlined in black.

There is also a front on shot of D5M,Showing a white nose which is very crudely painted-almost like whitewash-of note is the letter M visible under the chin.

Arco Aircam series Griff Spit and Seafire tome.

This has a series of 4 807 sqn Seafires ,again from the relevant time period.

D5V-White nose,dirty white or pale blue/grey codes-clearly outlined in black. The codes on this one are 50% darker than the inner roundel colour.

D5P-White nose,dirty white or pale blue/grey codes-clearly outlined in black

D5S-Red codes no outline,black /Dk Blue nose

The final pic shows 6 a/c getting ready to taxi,no codes are clearly visable but the proportion of white noses to black noses is greater!.

Squadrons FAA softcover book shows

D5L-White nose,dirty white or pale blue/grey codes-clearly outlined in black

In Sami's Merlin Spit Datafile theres a Caruana illustration ,with the pale blue codes ,black nose but no RN titles over the a/c no.

To further confound things,Hi-Planes suggest a White nose and Czechmaster a Black nose in their respective kits!.For the D5J option.

Maybe the black nose was for section leaders and the guy got promoted?.

Also in the pics mentioned above,no belly tanks were present but underwing roundels are.

Edited January 4, 2008 by Gwart

[Test Graham]

Belly tanks would be an option for specific missions. Unless you are modelling one specific mission then include or leave off to taste.

The other option with the spinners would be flight colours. I believe that at least one Seafire unit used not black but dark blue spinners - could this be another?

[alvin5182]

Thanks for the info gents. Looks like I'll be going with the white spinner. I was just hoping "the" photo would be out there somewhere which gave definitive proof, one way or the other. I believe the roundels are the small blue with white centres of the East Indies Fleet from Nov 44 to Mar 45 as opposed to the two tone blue of SEAC.

thanks again

alvin5182

[spitfire]

This should help.

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Cheers

Den

[gengriz]

I can understand your confusion - here is the SAM profile of D5J, with black spinner:

...but here is a piccy of D5M after a mishap with what definitely looks like a white spinner, although, perhaps more mysteriously, the codes don't look white and are outlined in black! The SAM article also has D5X with what looks like a white spinner (its lighter than the undersides).

...however, the FAA Archive website shows D5J with a sky spinner !

FAA Archive 807 Sqn

There is also a nice build on ARC, where the builder has gone with white - tantalisingly, he has a good photo of D5J, but the only thing you cant see is the colour of the spinner! Although he perhaps gives a clue as to why there is confusion; they were regularly damaged and replaced; perhaps they changed quite often and black was the colour of a spare?

Personally I would go with white myself, although SAM must have had a reason to show it black (in that series of profiles its the only black one). The Royal Navy titles are more difficult. Cant see why they wouldn't have them, unless the underlying fuselage was recently repainted.

p.s. Not my piccies, so I will remove them after a short period.

[alvin5182]

gengriz et al:

I am going to go with the white spinner (heck, I can always repaint it if "the" photo ever appears) . I have the photos and references you've mentioned and a few more. Who can argue in the abscence of positive proof?

Thanks a load for your help and thoughts.

alvin5182

[pierre66]

Hullo, and what about tactical markings in "sicilly operation"... its D5, too?

 

What is the way to fild "record of events" from 807 FAA? (very easy for RAF, bu greet web silence for FAA!)

 

Thanks for all.

 

Pierre from france