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Contra-prop Spits


Mike

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There weren't many, mainly experimental (IIRC only the late mark Seafires had them as standard)

mk 14, mk 21, mk 22s and a single mk 24 (PK684) all carried them at various times

You could use the contraprop from the Airfix Seafire kit with the mk 22/24 kit

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The Mk. 21 was tested with a contrarotating propeller, but the five bladed prop was fitted for series production. Presumably, the extra maintenance was not worth the performance and handling benefits for a landbased plane. The Seafire 46 and 47 both had contrarotating propellers fitted as standard, so your choice is going to be fairly limited I'm afraid...

There is a French owned warbird - a Spitfire PR.19 - fitted with a contrarotating propeller but I believe this used a Griffon engine from a Shackleton, so it is not entirely original. Looks different though...

Jens

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... with presumably the lack of torque "swing" on takeoff the big plus for a single engined prop driven aircraft sporting one of those powerful Griffon engines.

Next question... what's the best Seafire contra-prop kit in 1:48?

An extra propeller! :innocent:

Jen.

B'dum, tushhhh! You'll be here all week? :rolleyes:;)

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...and what can the Spitfire experts tell me?

I'd like to build one in 1:48 scale if possible... what would I need? :hmmm:

Once upon a time......

000_0447.jpg

Airfix Seafire and Aeroclub MkXIV/21 fuselage.

Markings for 1 sqn.,

Now, only a handful saw front-line service - this was post war and its unlikely they were used for anything other than trial's. Anyway the cost was prohibitive, and there was a weight penalty, and the Meteor's were reaching Squadron service. 41 Sqn, also had at least one......In shiney silver with red-stripes......

The contra-prop 21's had a larger rudder BUT the larger area was entirely due to a larger horn-balance (oo-er Mrs!), it had the same shape overall. This can be achieved by re-scribing lower.

Additionally the larger Mk22/4 tailplanes were NOT used.

How do I know? John Adams told me AFTER I'd built mine as a SAMI article!!!

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The contra-prop 21's had a larger rudder BUT the larger area was entirely due to a larger horn-balance (oo-er Mrs!), it had the same shape overall. This can be achieved by re-scribing lower.

Actually, that's not, strictly, true. The standard 21 used the same fin, and rudder, as the XIV, but the contra-prop version used the rudder from the XVIII, which had a bigger, overall, area, longer cross-section, and the "kinked" trim tab. Additionally, on the 21, only, the horn was made deeper, which took a small amount out of the fin. Inspection of the photos, in "Spitfire the History," will show this. I suspect that the larger rudder was needed because the fin still had the offset, for the Griffon engine, (which would cause its own torque,)and the deeper horn was necessary to stop overbalancing.

Edgar

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Actually, that's not, strictly, true. The standard 21 used the same fin, and rudder, as the XIV, but the contra-prop version used the rudder from the XVIII, which had a bigger, overall, area, longer cross-section, and the "kinked" trim tab. Additionally, on the 21, only, the horn was made deeper, which took a small amount out of the fin. Inspection of the photos, in "Spitfire the History," will show this. I suspect that the larger rudder was needed because the fin still had the offset, for the Griffon engine, (which would cause its own torque,)and the deeper horn was necessary to stop overbalancing.

Edgar

I have that book... BIG for the money, isn't it? :)

"There can be only one!" Airfix Seafire 46/47 kit.

Jens

:hmmm: That would gel well with my growing contra-prop FAA collection that I seem to have accidentally fallen into :rolleyes:

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Was the same not also true of most low backed XIVs and also mk 18s? I'm sure that's what John Adams said

There might well have been a mod., but I haven't found it. Photographs don't bear out John's theory; No.2 Squadron's F.R.XIVEs, photographed in Gatow, 1946, still have the standard XIV rudder, with the small horn. The only clear photos, that, so far, I've been able to find, of XVIIIs, (but taken around 1948/50,) do have the bigger rudder & the deeper horn, but the specs., for the fin, and rudder, areas, for all marks of XIVs(including the high-backed) & XVIII, in the "Spitfire bible," are identical, and I believe that this could only be true, if the XVIII fin/rudder was altered at a later stage.

Edgar

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I believe that this could only be true, if the XVIII fin/rudder was altered at a later stage.

Edgar

...like a Spitfire "cut & shut"? The grafting on of a different tail after damage or failure?

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There might well have been a mod., but I haven't found it. Photographs don't bear out John's theory; No.2 Squadron's F.R.XIVEs, photographed in Gatow, 1946, still have the standard XIV rudder, with the small horn. The only clear photos, that, so far, I've been able to find, of XVIIIs, (but taken around 1948/50,) do have the bigger rudder & the deeper horn, but the specs., for the fin, and rudder, areas, for all marks of XIVs(including the high-backed) & XVIII, in the "Spitfire bible," are identical, and I believe that this could only be true, if the XVIII fin/rudder was altered at a later stage.

Edgar

I looked into this one a few years back, and it's one area that 'The Bible' is incomplete on. They mention testing of the enlarged rudder on the XIV/XVIII but not it's introduction. I beleive they were retrofitted to some XIVes - I'll dig out a picture of a 602 Squadron one along side some mk 21s where you can clearly see the larger 'horn' (oo-err missus)

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There is a French owned warbird - a Spitfire PR.19 - fitted with a contrarotating propeller but I believe this used a Griffon engine from a Shackleton, so it is not entirely original. Looks different though...

Yep, and it goes like s**t off a stick! When they do the mass spitfire display at Duxford, this one cleary has miles more jump.

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I looked into this one a few years back, and it's one area that 'The Bible' is incomplete on. They mention testing of the enlarged rudder on the XIV/XVIII but not it's introduction. I beleive they were retrofitted to some XIVes - I'll dig out a picture of a 602 Squadron one along side some mk 21s where you can clearly see the larger 'horn' (oo-err missus)

Now, steady on; it's extremely difficult to do research, with sweaty palms :whistling:

In Aircam no.8 there are photos of (post-war) Belgian F.R.XIVs, with both types of rudder, but, so far, I can't find, anywhere, photos of wartime XIVs with anything other than the standard, smaller, rudder. Even the photo, of XVIII SM843, which was the trials a/c, has the XIV rudder. I've found the specs, for the 21, at last, and the fin, and rudder, areas are exactly the same as the XIV, XVIII, and XIX. All this leads me, still, to believe that the bigger, XVIII, rudder was a post-war mod, which was retro-fitted to some (but not all) F.R.XIVs, and it was found to be necessary on the contra-prop 21, to counteract the fin offset. It's a pity that there are no Seafire 47s, in this country, because it would be interesting to check on the (lack of?) fin offset, since there might have been none, with the aircraft always designed to have contra-props.

Edgar

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...like a Spitfire "cut & shut"? The grafting on of a different tail after damage or failure?

It wouldn't have been necessary; remember that there's a transport joint, just in front of the tail area. It would have been easy to fit a new tail/fin, then add a larger rudder, and I think that the bigger rudder was, originally, necessary (because of the lack of a spine,) for directional control. No.1 Squadron's 21 has a piece of wood, at the top of the fin, to fill in the gap, which was left when it reverted to single prop/ XIV rudder configuration.

Edgar

P.S. Sorry for the two answers; couldn't figure out how to get two quotes into one reply. :confused:

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All this leads me, still, to believe that the bigger, XVIII, rudder was a post-war mod, which was retro-fitted to some (but not all) F.R.XIVs, and it was found to be necessary on the contra-prop 21, to counteract the fin offset.

Yep, I would agree with that. Timescale would appear to be about 1947/48.

Just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons, photos of 17 Squadron's mk XIVs in Japan in the Lucas book on post-war RAF Fighters Overseas show HIGH BACKED mk XIVs fitted with the enlarged rudder. Interestingly, these appear to be a single colour - perhaps confirming them as a recent retro-fit.

One thing I've never seen is how much wider this later rudder should be. (Post to trailing edge)

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I don't know about the difference, but, at its widest point, it's 33.5" Peter Cooke's drawings, of the narrower rudder, scale out to around 30", while his wider rudder scales out to 34.5" (fairly close, in 1/72nd scale!) The height is 71.5", with the horn 16" long, and 12.5" high, at the apex. These measurements were taken from a F.R.XIVE, at Duxford. I couldn't find a XIV with the narrower rudder. If anyone wants to scratchbuild his, or her, own rudder, I have rather more comprehensive measurements available.

Edgar

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The Airfix Seafire is a really nice kit Mike, I built one a few years back and put it next to a Tamiya mk.V, you would not believe how different they look.If someone did a 1/32 or 1/24 Seafire FR.47, I'd be happy...

Joel

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Hannant's; Airwaves AES 48093 @ £2.99. It's designed for the Academy kit, but you'll only need to deepen the horn, a little, and carve about 1/16" off the fin top.

Edgar

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just been leafing thru this month's SAMI and it appears Planet are releasing a Seafire 45 in the near future, and I'm wondering whether they've modelled it with the contra-prop, or not. According to this place it could be either. :hmmm: Can anyone shed some light on whether it'll be a decent kit, or not?

As it's a full resin kit, would I be better off tracking down an Airfix 46/47 and adding some AM gear to it, or would I end up around the £45 asking price of the resin kit? Oh, decisions, decisions!

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