SMER 1/72 IL2 is it anygood?

[Massimo Tessitori]

Wow, I never thought I would ever see original Russian WW2 colour photos, are there more somewhere?

Hi,

there is a third image of the same planes on the same monograph. The photo is of planes of Czech unit (inside the VVS) just after the end of the war, made in Prague-Kbely airport. I don't know color photos of genuine Soviet source of that period.

Few other photos were taken by Germans or Finns at the beginning of the war. Here are some:

Regards

Massimo

[BallsBuster]

Ballsbuster,

You are saying that you are looking at the things from a wider angle and trying to embrace the reality as it is, but your posts suffer from stereotypes!

For example:

Happu modeling,

KL

KL,

I am sorry, you completely miss the point here - sure there were old people and women at production line (the 15 year old boys was a figure of speech base on the widely known fact - or you suggest it isn't?) - but the point was that the tempo of production and extended shifts were not conducive to the nit picking on the camo issues. So, may it is worth to add something really to the point of the discussion?

Sorry, I have missed this in the initial reply - "On following photos I see a large scale, mass production. This would not be possible if there were chronicle deficits of relatively small details like paints. The key factors for mass production were: standardization, unification, simplification, not improvisation."

This all is very nice and up-lifting, however the reality is usually very different. It is no secret that the quality of delivered aircraft has been a major issue throughout the whole war for the VVS. In 1943 a 10% of grounded aircraft due to production faults across all VVS was considered acceptable. The production faults and deficits are very well documented (the accidents Kari described by Kari before was for example caused by the general deficit of "orage cron" which was a main component of aerial party - the attempt to replace it with other components led to mass grounding of IL-2s) - the problems naturally were not confined to Il-2s and plagued other types.

The huge numbers of aircraft produced in those conditions are the tribute to the management capabilities of the factories and the devotion of workers and not the reflection of the perfect plans.

Kari,

"If more than half of aircraft fleet is grounded because of substandard finish the answer is more careless finish of the planes? Really I think not. My recollection of the Soviet/Russian material I read with the help of translator robot is that the reason for the masses of unflyable planes was actually use of an improper pigment."

- I remember reading the same analyses somewhere in the one of the articles, and it is absolutely true, however the problem did not limit to the fabric surfaces as the documents clearly state that the the planes were losing plywood surfaces as well. The surface defects included - "the cracks on the external paints and lacquers, peeling and deformation of plywood surfaces in addition to the peeling of fabric surfaces". The investigation discovered that this was the result of "gross violation of technological processes by the produces" which included in addition to what you mentioned - incorrect placement of wing panels during its assembly, shift of the rivet line from its proper placement, incorrect attachment to the carcass, and viloation of wood processing technology in preparation of plywood. This was as far as the surfaces concerned - the other serious defects included - the air systems where not hermetic enough and could not hold prescribed pressure which resulted in faults with flaps and undercarriage. Because of the poor assembly the tail control surfaces did not opreate freely and jammed in flight, and many many more. Not fault of aircraft factories, but UBT guns also refused to work properly en masse due to faults in assembly and parts.

"I very much oppose the thought that the Soviet-era instructions/guidelines were "recommendations" only. For example the 1943 Field repair manual (search for it, at least scalemodels.ru threads have had links for it?) gives no approved substitutions for the A-24M (green), A-26M (black) and A-28M (light blue). Interestingly for the interior paint A-14 there is approved substitution - A-28M (this may be the source for EP/WEM "ALG-5"???). Similarly for the AMT-4 (green), AMT-6 (black) and AMT-7 (light blue) there are no approved substitutions given."

This is really your choice what to believe. Please, have a look at the discussion above on what is the more correct version of the translation for "rukovodstvo". The fact is that those were not strictly observed neither on the front line nor in the rear. The example with the stars placements is probably the clear one, but the presence of widely accepted "firm" flavour (like LaGG and La) schemes and the complete absence of some of the others prescriptions in the practical world are also a very good illustration of my point.

Sorry have to dash again

Edited December 9, 2011 by BallsBuster

[occa]

Thanks Massimo a lot for the other colour pics !!!

Martin

[BallsBuster]

This is interesting, but what about the 4BO that is said to have been utilized as a substitution of AMT-4 and other greens, or to the use of AII light blue after 1941? The wreck of the Il-2 in Kiev shows a glossy blue undersurface, and only this paint had a glossy finish. Perhaps the stocks of AII light blue were ended in 1943, but still utilized in 1941/42?

Regards

Massimo

I am no expert, but As far as I know 4BO was reffered to the name of the dry pigments mix which was as added to any kind of "fixing agent" - (enamel based, or laquer based or whatever else depending upon use). The regulation was only referring to the proportions and did not regulate the shade at all. This mix was developed in 1937 and had a few incarnations as the spec was changed in 1942, 1944 and later in 1955. It consisted of three pigments - chrome oxide, ochre and "orange cron". The proportions respectively were as follows in %):

1942 : 25 - 66,67 - 8,33

1944 : 18,75 - 73,75 - 7,5

1956 : 24,95 - 66,66 - 8,39

(note a serious decrease in 1944 proportion of chrome oxide and "orange cron").

Naturally, the shades of 4BO would differ greatly depending upon the fixing agent, solvent, conditions and methods of applications etc...(off topic and that is why it is absolutely pointless to discuss what shade it really was).

Now, I vaguely remember reading somewhere that AMT-4 was a lacquer designed to match 4BO in color, so it could possibly be the 4bo pigment mix (special finer pigments?) with the laquer based fixing agent. The shade of it would also differ widely based on numerous factors...

It is howerver known that the spech for A-24M (was it an enamel analogue of AMT-4?) was changed in 1944 - so this was possibly due to the change in 4BO pigment mix. Hope I am not confusing matters even more.

[K_L]

KL,

I am sorry, you completely miss the point here - sure there were old people and women at production line (the 15 year old boys was a figure of speech base on the widely known fact - or you suggest it isn't?) - but the point was that the tempo of production and extended shifts were not conducive to the nit picking on the camo issues. So, may it is worth to add something really to the point of the discussion?

BallsBuster,

I am sorry too, I understand your posts well and I respectfully disagree:

Regarding the use of lend lease paints... The constant deficit of paints and pigments during the war is also mentioned by a large number of sources and their use is admitted rather widely.

Constant deficit of paints is your assumption, your guess that you can’t proof. Paint producers faced a shortage of pigments and other raw materials earlier in the war. They had to find replacements, but they also had to keep up with planned production and keep plane manufacturers supplied. At the end the quality of some products, like nitro-glues went down and the palette changed from green to more grays.

They were painted with paints that were available at hand, thinned with the solvent available at hand. If at some moment of time the factory would run out of one kind of paint they would paint the airframe with two colors instead of three (which the article above exemplifies) and the shades would vary hugely.

Painting planes with paints that were available at hand (like tractor paints) is your guess… no proofs for this whatsoever!!! You are adding a deficit of thinners too…

Are you saying that if factory ran out of red paint, some teenager could paint blue stars???

Or if they ran out of blue, red was OK for undersides??? Photographic evidence (so popular among modelers) confirms that undersides were always blue. How comes that they never ran out of blue??? Why do you think that they would run out of black (pigmented with soot, never a deficitary pigment) and they would replace it with brown that wasn’t even produced before 1943???

The paining was performed by an industrial spray gun by 14-16 year olds working 12 hour shifts 7 days a week. And that on meager rations. Do you really think they or plants managers were concerned or bothered by exact correspondence to guidelines?

As I said, a number of women and teenagers was included in workforce, but they were not the only workforce. Teenagers and women are irrelevant for painting practices anyway. You are using them to explain assumed deviations from regulations.

Hope you understand my point here.

KL

[Nick Millman]

The regulation was only referring to the proportions and did not regulate the shade at all.

Actually the proportion of the constituent pigments determines the hue in a generally predictable way. The other paint components are ancillary to the main purpose of depositing the pigment mix as a definable "colour" in the form of a painted surface, although aspects of application and durability are usually integral. Some variation is introduced by the quality of the pigments and subsequent minor differences in their appearance but generally the colour will be the "same" to all intents and purposes. If the ratio of pigments is known then their interaction together is also predictable and arguably this is a more dependable way of determining the actual paint colour than examining 70 year old paint surfaces or looking at colour photos. Also the quality of the pigments will affect the way they age on the airframe from application. Yellow ochre in particular is a pigment which can vary according to the quality of its production and existed in both natural and synthetic forms which also varied in appearance.

But distinguishing between "variance" and "difference" in a discussion about paint colours is important.

"Orange cron" sounds like chrome orange. By the pigments and ratios cited here the colour would be an olive green towards olive drab/brown becoming increasingly browner in appearance as the chrome oxide pigment content was decreased. If the pigment procurement was simplistic, e.g. "any ochre" then the resultant colour could indeed vary significantly from one manufactured batch to another. But presumably the extant standards and swatches suggest that the colours were expected to match to a norm, otherwise there would be no point to produce them.

[BallsBuster]

Hi Nick,

Actually the proportion of the constituent pigments determines the hue in a generally predictable way. The other paint components are ancillary to the main purpose of depositing the pigment mix as a definable "colour" in the form of a painted surface, although aspects of application and durability are usually integral. Some variation is introduced by the quality of the pigments and subsequent minor differences in their appearance but generally the colour will be the "same" to all intents and purposes. If the ratio of pigments is known then their interaction together is also predictable and arguably this is a more dependable way of determining the actual paint colour than examining 70 year old paint surfaces or looking at colour photos.

- - I believe you are correct, although I clearly remember (dealing with a bit more modern version of 4BO for two years that the shades on different vehicles painted from the same drum could be and were noticeably different. I am not sure what was the reason for that but possibly it could be the misunderstanding between "variance" and "difference" you mention below.

Also the quality of the pigments will affect the way they age on the airframe from application. Yellow ochre in particular is a pigment which can vary according to the quality of its production and existed in both natural and synthetic forms which also varied in appearance.

But distinguishing between "variance" and "difference" in a discussion about paint colours is important.

- - Here, I think you "nailed it on the head" - a few researches I read mentioned this factor as well, and thus the shades of 4BO base paste (we received it in a sort of paste - ish form) would differ from batch to batch, even within the same spec. Would the length of storage be a factor too? AMT-1 spec allowed the shade to differ slightly due to storage... I wonder why.

"Orange cron" sounds like chrome orange. By the pigments and ratios cited here the colour would be an olive green towards olive drab/brown becoming increasingly browner in appearance as the chrome oxide pigment content was decreased. If the pigment procurement was simplistic, e.g. "any ochre" then the resultant colour could indeed vary significantly from one manufactured batch to another. But presumably the extant standards and swatches suggest that the colours were expected to match to a norm, otherwise there would be no point to produce them.

-- You might be correct. Sorry my chemistry knowledge is far below par to understand these details- what I found on orangecron is that it is - oksihromat lead - does it make sense? But even now the spec for this pigment produced at the factories in the former USSR states that the color may vary from "dark orange" to "deep red".

Regarding the quality of procurement - I would presume that in the 40 and during the wartime the pigment procurement issues would not be very high on the list of priorities, hence the wide "variance" in shades.

[Nick Millman]

Hi BB

"- - I believe you are correct, although I clearly remember (dealing with a bit more modern version of 4BO for two years that the shades on different vehicles painted from the same drum could be and were noticeably different. I am not sure what was the reason for that but possibly it could be the misunderstanding between "variance" and "difference" you mention below."

Variance from the same drum is unusual but not impossible. Dependent on the preparation and application methods it could arise from these. Variance relates to hues that bear a common identity, e.g. Sky Blue but which display minor variance when examples are directly compared to each other. Usually variance is not identified except by direct comparison. The usual demonstration is to show a colour swatch to a group of observers in one place and then another swatch to the same group in another place. Most observers believe they are viewing swatches which are identical - in other words they are unable to identify any variance in isolation. Then when the colour swatches are shown to them in juxtaposition the variance between the two becomes evident. Difference is where different hues are involved, e.g. Sky Blue vs Sky Grey or where colours from different standards (e.g. FS 595B and RAL) are being compared and their difference quantified. Subtlety in transition from one hue to another, e.g. pale blue to pale green, means that variance and difference is sometimes a question of degree.

"- - Here, I think you "nailed it on the head" - a few researches I read mentioned this factor as well, and thus the shades of 4BO base paste (we received it in a sort of paste - ish form) would differ from batch to batch, even within the same spec. Would the length of storage be a factor too? AMT-1 spec allowed the shade to differ slightly due to storage... I wonder why."

Yes, storage can affect the appearance of paint dependent upon the stability of the pigments and other factors. It is impossible to make hard and fast generalisations or rules about this as it is dependent on specific chemistry and circumstances. Heat is often a factor as some pigments can alter when exposed to sustained and excessive heat. Batch differences are more usually the result of manufacturing processes and persist today, for example with Humbrol paint.

"-- You might be correct. Sorry my chemistry knowledge is far below par to understand these details- what I found on orangecron is that it is - oksihromat lead - does it make sense? But even now the spec for this pigment produced at the factories in the former USSR states that the color may vary from "dark orange" to "deep red"."

That sounds very much like Chrome Orange (discovered in 1809) where a lead chromate is treated to various processes to produce Pigment Orange 21 (a yellowish orange), Pigment Orange 45 (an orange to reddish orange) or Pigment Red 103 ( a reddish orange to red). Generally these are not bright pigments but have strong chroma or colour saturation. The variance you note probably arose from a requirement just for "chrome orange" rather than for the specific pigments mentioned, basically allowing manufacturers to use any of those methods and pigments. That is understandable where each of the processes themselves required different materials to be used - also subject to procurement. The authority probably found that the chrome orange variance in the final colour was not significant enough to worry about but you would need to experiment with the pigments to verify that. Since the ratio is known this would be an interesting exercise for Russian colours enthusiasts, although because of modern health & safety issues substitute pigments would have to be used in some cases. To avoid the expense and complexities of procuring and handling pigment powders oil paints can sometimes be used as they are often related directly to CI pigment numbers. As mentioned above this often provides a better perception of the original colour than extant paint and colour photos as pigment composition is key to understanding original colour appearance.

"Regarding the quality of procurement - I would presume that in the 40 and during the wartime the pigment procurement issues would not be very high on the list of priorities, hence the wide "variance" in shades."

In most cases the requirement was to match to a control swatch or standard and although suggested by an authority the preferred formula was not always mandatory, allowing manufacturers to source alternative pigments and to use other formulae to achieve the colour and protective characteristics required. See my comments about US olive drab above. Although I have no knowledge of Russian colours the variance this produced was common to most countries - for example the Japanese specifications were also advisory rather than mandatory - the ultimate acceptance being the visual assessment of an inspector. It would be wrong to think anything goes though. Better to think in terms of a process working towards a defined and required result in which variance was inevitable and accepted up to a point, together with the usual exigencies of wartime and production.

Regards

Nick

Edited December 10, 2011 by Nick Millman

[BallsBuster]

BallsBuster,

I am sorry too, I understand your posts well and I respectfully disagree:

- Hi KL,

I am afraid we are still on the different pages, based on what you have wrote in your post. Possibly, verbal communication is not my strong point, however

Constant deficit of paints is your assumption, your guess that you can’t proof. Paint producers faced a shortage of pigments and other raw materials earlier in the war. They had to find replacements, but they also had to keep up with planned production and keep plane manufacturers supplied. At the end the quality of some products, like nitro-glues went down and the palette changed from green to more grays.

- I am sorry, it is not my assumption but a widely known fact. Well documented and publicized. The incident with YaK-7s and experimental batches of paint is well known (the one reported to Stalin). That is why pigments and paints were included into lend-lease programme and took valuable cargo space. The character of deficits changed from total in the beginning of the war to some shorages in some areas in the end, but was experienced all the time.

Painting planes with paints that were available at hand (like tractor paints) is your guess… no proofs for this whatsoever!!! You are adding a deficit of thinners too…

Are you saying that if factory ran out of red paint, some teenager could paint blue stars???

Or if they ran out of blue, red was OK for undersides??? Photographic evidence (so popular among modelers) confirms that undersides were always blue. How comes that they never ran out of blue??? Why do you think that they would run out of black (pigmented with soot, never a deficitary pigment) and they would replace it with brown that wasn’t even produced before 1943???

There is no point of blowing things out of proportion (and please, get off the topic of tractor paint - it doesn't add anything to your argument just adds emotion), your sophistics aside - but using your examples, in the process of production, if certain paint would be in short supply the use of it would be reduced, i.e the stars would be put in fewer places than prescribed or not at all - the plane will still be pushed out and the stars would be added in the reserve regiments. But stars aside, it is enough to read Yakovlev's or Ilushin memoirs to stop questioning the deficits present at the time.

The photo evidence actually proves wide deviations in painting patterns from one tone colour two coulours in 1944. The lack of primer never stopped two of Kiev Il-2s being produced and pushed to the front.

As I said, a number of women and teenagers was included in workforce, but they were not the only workforce. Teenagers and women are irrelevant for painting practices anyway. You are using them to explain assumed deviations from regulations.

As I also said before, the point was not the composition of the workforce according to age or gender (besides I never wrote that they were "the only work force" and also never questioned their qualifications) but its ability to maintain "standards" under the immence pressure. Even highly qualified and physically strong workers would not be able to maintain the tempo of 12 hour shifts 6-7 days a week. The qualification however, was a constant problems as well. I have not used teenagers and women to explain the documented low quality of airplanes but try to illustrate how flexible the "standards" were during the war. However, the workforce was unquestionably a part of the problem.

Hope you understand my point here.

KL

I am not sure of anything anymore Hope I made myself clear this time around.

Cheers

[K_L]

...it is enough to read Yakovlev's or Ilushin memoirs to stop questioning the deficits present at the time.

FYI, Sergei Ilyushin never wrote memoirs!!!

It looks you are relying on a nonexistant memoirs to prove your hypothesis???

Yakovlev did write memoirs ("Tsil Zhizni" i "Zapiski konstruktora"), and he did mention numerous cases of fabric tearing from wooden wings in 1943, how Stalin summoned him and few others and how problem was fixed in short time. He never mentioned chronicle paint shartages.

Case is now explained with more details (you quoted some) and it's clear that it wasn't about the paint - really about the nitro-glue and other causes.

to make this clear: shortages were typical for Soviet Union even after the war, but this chronicle shortage of aviation paints is your construction. Hypothetical results of this "shortage" like two-colour scheme instead of three-colour scheme or reduced number of stars are pure fiction.

Consider this: nitrocellulose laquers might have been among those rare products (like plywood and unlike say rubber or alluminium) that Soviets were able to produce is sufficient amounts. Hint: both nitro-cellulose and plywood are wood products.

BTW on that list of lend-lease material (the link you provided, although I would be causious with something published in 1952) there is only about 1 ton of nitrocellulose laquers supplied - irrelevant for Yak, Lagg/La production. there is much more oil paints, but those could be ship paints or who knows what.

KL

[mholly]

BallBuster:

- I am sorry, it is not my assumption but a widely known fact. Well documented and publicized.

Documented and publicized by whom and where? Please state the references.

That is why pigments and paints were included into lend-lease programme and took valuable cargo space.

Can you please state details which paints exactly from L-L were used by VVS?

and please, get off the topic of tractor paint - it doesn't add anything to your argument just adds emotion

Wasn't it you who said VVS used "whatever was available"? Then the matter of "tractor paint" is extremely relevant.

Mario

[BallsBuster]

FYI, Sergei Ilyushin never wrote memoirs!!!

It looks you are relying on a nonexistant memoirs to prove your hypothesis???

Sorry, my mistake, I actually meant Yakovlev's and Kozlov's memoirs. Was in a hurry to reply, and messed up. However below are two quotes from Shakhurin's memoirs (sorry they are in Russian, but nothing too complicated so google should manange it (sorry I took whole paragraphs of it):

On the proportion of women in the workforce - "Около половины работавших на предприятиях авиационной промышленности составляли женщины. Поэтому всякая похвала труду женщин на заводах во время войны не будет чрезмерной. Работали они героически, иногда обгоняя мужчин. А на многих из них лежали и другие заботы. Нужно было еще присмотреть за детьми, постирать для них, приготовить еду, навести порядок в доме. Да и на рабочем месте у них всегда было опрятно и чисто. А ведь работали, как и все, 12 и более часов. Если еще учесть, что у многих было личное горе, потеря близких, то вопрос, был ли предел мужеству и выносливости женщин-работниц, не покажется праздным. Они взяли на свои плечи почти непосильный груз. И выдержали. В основном благодаря их труду наша армия обеспечивалась боевой техникой, оружием и боеприпасами."

On the shortages: "В какой-то степени некоторые из этих проблем решались на местах, на заводах, где проявлялась исключительная изобретательность и сметка. Не хватало металла на баки для бензина — стали изготовлять их из дерева: сосны, бакелитовой фанеры и шпона. Деревянный бак обтягивали резиной и устанавливали на самолет{7}. Бронзовые втулки для шасси из-за нехватки бронзы изготовляли из чугуна. Не всякий чугун, правда, годился, но кокильный подходил. Перестал поступать на заводы казеиновый клей — раньше его поставлял какой-то завод под Сталинградом — стали делать свой клей. Или, например, не хватало для сварки карбида кальция — применили, где это было возможно, крекинг-газ. Такая же картина со специальной присыпкой для сварки — флюсом, одним из компонентов которого была мраморная крошка. В ход пошел весь мрамор, который оказался под рукой, даже мраморные плиты с близлежащих кладбищ. Другого выхода не было. Фильтры, шприцы, насосы, поставлявшиеся раньше специализированными заводами, теперь изготовляли сами самолетостроители, не говоря о болтах, гайках и т. п.

Осваивали и более сложные вещи. На один из моторостроительных заводов перестали поступать карбюраторы. Пока не наладили производство карбюраторов на специализированном заводе, моторы здесь выпускали с карбюраторами собственного изготовления. Освоили и бортовые воздушные компрессоры, а также синхронизатор, дававший возможность стрелять из пулеметов через винт, и многое другое. Все это требовало нередко очень больших усилий, исключительной точности при изготовлении тех или иных узлов, тщательного испытания на специальные установках. Но коллектив завода справился со всеми проблемами. Длительное время он обеспечивал карбюраторами и другими изделиями заводы, производившие такие же моторы. В это труднейшее время на заводе значительно модернизировали станочный парк, здесь появились станки и собственной конструкции. Ну и, конечно, весь режущий и измерительный инструмент, а это ни много ни мало, а сотни тысяч и миллионы единиц, заводчане изготавливали сами."

chronicle shortage of aviation paints is your construction. Hypothetical results of this "shortage" like two-colour scheme instead of three-colour scheme or reduced number of stars are pure fiction.

I am sorry, it is not just me - Averin, (not sure but it seems (to me although the memory might fail me here) that also Vakhlamov) note that the failure to observe 1940 (dec) 1941 (june) directives was universally attributed to the absence of paints. And, please, read carefully to the text, the mess with the stars position was mentioned as an illustration to the liberty in implementing the directives/guidelines and not as an example of shortage of red paint. I would suggest you to avoid unnecessary sophistics as it lead to looping your argument around.

BTW there was not only shortage of paints but also aviation fuel and motor oils - would you like me prove that to you too?

chronicle shortage of aviation paints is your construction. Hypothetical results of this "shortage" like two-colour scheme instead of three-colour scheme or reduced number of stars are pure fiction.

Sorry, but I cannot. USSR did not produce sufficient amounts of alluminium during the war and that is why it was receiving constant intake of it via lend lease, and that is why plywood was used so widely (and in Il-2 in particular although the original design was different.

Also the supply of plywood was not that straightforward either - "А у нас остались на юге Украины, в Белоруссии и Прибалтике основные места, где заготавливалась авиадревесина. И почти все авиационные фанерные и деревообрабатывающие заводы находились там же. Мы потеряли с началом войны свои основные базы. Оставались Кавказ, Сибирь, Урал, где для авиационной промышленности лес никогда не заготавливался. Теперь надо было взять его на новых местах. И гораздо больше, чем прежде. Вопрос об авиалесе стоял очень остро. Даже для лошадей, которые использовались на вывозке древесины, был установлен особый паек. Наступил момент, когда с лесозаготовками стало совсем туго. Собрали специальное совещание на самом высоком уровне. С мандатами ЦК партии люди разъехались по всем фанерным и деревообрабатывающим заводам, во все леспромхозы, на все базы, где хранился лес. Дело дошло до того, что для отбора авиационного леса установили специальный контроль на шпалопропиточных заводах"

BTW on that list of lend-lease material (the link you provided, although I would be causious with something published in 1952) there is only about 1 ton of nitrocellulose laquers supplied - irrelevant for Yak, Lagg/La production. there is much more oil paints, but those could be ship paints or who knows what.

- I was more intersted not in the paints but in pigments and non-ferrous metals supplied, and I do not see a problem with the year of the document. After all it was largely accepted and paid by the USSR.

[BallsBuster]

BallBuster:

Documented and publicized by whom and where? Please state the references.

Перов В. И., Растренин О. В. Штурмовики Красной Армии (Том 1.).

В. Перов, О. Растренин. Штурмовик Ил-2

Олег Растренин. Главная ударная сила. Штурмовик Ил-2 - this article was also printed in A. Drabkin's book.

Now Rastenin refers to the materials of the investigation on the status of quality of Il-2 in 1943, - I have not found original of it, but the reference to this can be found through looking at the "2-nd Case of Aviators in 1946-7" - the materials of this case I believe, are available in the Russian archives, but are not published in the Internet. I also do not know if all docs are available or just the synapse.

Can you please state details which paints exactly from L-L were used by VVS?

I wish I knew. The paints and components where supplied and where used, that is for sure, the exact details require a research for which very few people have means and time (certainly not myself). The 100% gurantee is that details of many of the dials on the VVS dashboards were painted with lend lease paint Not much.... but the Aviaprom used lendlease materials widely when they had a chance (aluminium, mentioned above, also woven steel ropes and some other things) - not on all machines but still rather widely. I also cannot single out production batches for those. Sorry.

Wasn't it you who said VVS used "whatever was available"? Then the matter of "tractor paint" is extremely relevant.

Mario

I am sorry - did I ever mention anywhere an existence of "tractor paint"? Could you please, re-read what was said? But as long as "tractor paint" is so dear to your heart, and just to make it absolutely clear to you, I do not think that any special "tractor paint" ever existed, I aslo doubt there were any special paints for any agricultural vehicles. However, and I believe, I was trying to make this point earlier - the tractors (and other vehicles) in the USSR were often painted green, in many cases 4BO. This practice I witnessed myself in the early 80s.

Now, what I meant, that in absence of paint according to the regulations, the factories (they are not VVS by the way) would cut corners and use the means they would have at their disposal to push the finished planes out. That is why they widely used metal primer on all surgaces (or not use it at all) - or refrain from using disruptive camo at all.

Now VVS would have its own repair bases and reserve regiments which would have rather wide capabilities on repair/repainting of the aircraft. A damaged aircraft would often also be repainted adding to the array camos or disarray if you wish.

It seems to me, that in the West there is an erroneous view on the USSR's military industry and system as a sort of blend of military and concentration camp where management would be a all but an automaton following orders from the central apparatus. This cannot be further from reality - in fact Soviet managers and engineers constantly demonstrated amazing daring and imagination in finding solutions and maintaining the production rates.

[K_L]

This is hopeless…

I am trying to discus specific, concrete practices you mentioned in your posts:

- use of “any paint at hand” in factories

- existence of nonstandard green-brown camouflage scheme in 1942

- two-colour camouflage scheme instead of the standard three-colour scheme

- deviations from the standard location of markings (red stars)

- use of Lend-Lease paints on VVS planes, specially in factories

You are providing more and more general information – some indirectly or remotely related to above, some totally unrelated. Your proofs have to be more specific!

Deficit of alluminium is not a proof for “constant deficit of paints”.

Low quality of mass produced planes is a well known fact. “Srivka obshivki” (tearing of fabric from wooden surfaces or complete detachment of wooden skin) was one of the manifestations of this low quality. But, this does not have anything in common with camouflage schemes or location of markings. Period!!!!

Composition of workforce is not related to colours, camouflage schemes or location of markings either. Women worked in US aviation industry, so what??? No standards there??? Germans utilized slave labor in aviation industry, so what? Did this relate to wide variations in shades of RLM colours?

Edited December 12, 2011 by K_L

[BallsBuster]

BallBuster:

Documented and publicized by whom and where? Please state the references.

Dear Mario and KL,

I understand you both treat Vakhlamovs work in high respect (and rightfully so) -

OK, below is the quote from Vakhlamov's monograph on the quality of the planes they received (in PVO) but I would presume not hugely different from frontline

And here what also in Vakhlamov and Orlov is said on the pracise of painting - it is a PVO PARM, so by defauld they would have more time on their hands in the second half of the war.

To come to the gist of it (and it is based in PARM practice)

- they only used paints received from BAO

- they never mixed paints to receive the match with previous batches or obrain other colours

- if there was not enough paint they would change the areas covered by the camo spots to make do, besides

- they never received an official pattern

- the pattern existed (but only as the paint jobs were made by the same people and they had their own trademark) and thus the patterns int he end of the war resembled the ones in the beginning of the war

So much of sticking to the 1943 guidlines

Regarding the positioning of red stars, please, read the guidlines of 1941 and have a look where they where during that periond.

In general, you seem to be moving goal posts all the time. The photos and the recks prove the existence one an two tome camos in 1943-44. What other proof you are looking for?

Deficit you were so much in doubt of existed, and mentioned many times.

The laxity of practices is metioned even by Vaklamov and Orlov in their monograph, the brown green camo is mentioned in Kondrashov's work and in description of the camo practices.

Lend lease materials were used on planes at the factories, and it is naturally to assume they paints were also used, if they were delivered (outside of fluerescent paints that where used). In fact if the lend lease paints and pigments were used, they were used more likely at the factories. This can be approved or disapproved only by going through the factory inventory archives.

But even this is not the point of the discussion just a few posts ago you were claiming there were no deficits, and now you are trying to nitpick, your next argument will be that "everything is just an exclusion that proves the rule"... USSR imported both paints and pigments and in fairly large quantities, what of that and where syphoned through to aircraft factories and in which form is impossible to prove at this time and especially being in the UK. The allocation of lend lease items in general is a weird thing and there are still questions of wher certain kinds of larger equipment were used, saying nothing of basic commodities. On the other hand - can you prove otherwise?

Low quality of mass produced planes is a well known fact. “Srivka obshivki” (tearing of fabric from wooden surfaces or complete detachment of wooden skin) was one of the manifestations of this low quality. But, this does not have anything in common with camouflage schemes or location of markings. Period!!!!

If you paid attention to the arguments - it was not connected to the camos it was used as illustration of lax production practices in the push towards quantity, ergo the attention paid to comos and secondary guidelines was insignificant.

Composition of workforce is not related to colours, camouflage schemes or location of markings either. Women worked in US aviation industry, so what??? No standards there??? Germans utilized slave labor in aviation industry, so what? Did this relate to wide variations in shades of RLM colours?

I am glad we agree on composition - I think I wrote it to you a while ago and with this quote just wanted to show you that your post was plain wrong (sorry could not help rubbing your nose in it, guilty, it is just my vanity). But it has everything to do with the working practices which were attrocius even for qualified personell and you know it well enough, I believe.

The Germans, by the way complained a lot by the end of the war on the quality of their equipment and Speher (I am not 100% sure the spelling is correct) also mentioned it one of the reasons was using larger number of forced labourers at the weapons factories...

[John Thompson]

Ah, you guys - can't we all just get along??? You're generating more heat than light with this argument. For those of us who are merely students of this topic, it becomes confusing, distracting, and even discouraging.

It seems to me, that in the West there is an erroneous view on the USSR's military industry and system as a sort of blend of military and concentration camp where management would be a all but an automaton following orders from the central apparatus. This cannot be further from reality - in fact Soviet managers and engineers constantly demonstrated amazing daring and imagination in finding solutions and maintaining the production rates.

Thank you for that - I said exactly the same thing (although not as well as you did) a few months ago in another thread, and got ripped a new one for it.

John

[K_L]

Dear Buster,

your hypothesis is really nicely defined here:

the attention paid to comos and secondary guidelines (i.e. official standards) was insignificant

So far you have demonstrated ability to use almost about anything to promote your hypothesis: generalizations of all kinds, unrelated excerpts from memoirs, outdated info from popular literature, selective translations, wrong translations, unknown authors (who is Kondrashov?)....

Further discussion with you would be only a waste of time. I am giving up; I can't care less what your beliefs are...

Cheers,

KL

Edited December 12, 2011 by K_L

[Kari Lumppio]

Privet, Hello etc.!

Yes there is and was Soviet tractor green paint and purpose-made paints for agricultural equipment. As for example in the 1948 Albom Nakrasok:

Paints ST (CT in cyrillic), KT and Khaki STZ (Xaki ST3 aprrox. in cyrillic, the lowermost single sample) are all paints especially meant for tractors. Unfortunately I have lost picture of the reverse side of the album page which contains some technical data for the paints. I should ask if I could loan the Albom one more time, perhaps I could make pictures where focus is ok too at the same go.

The Khaki STZ - tractor green - is not so far from the various camouflage greens:

Of the Lend-Lease shipments of paint. I could not find any aviation paints mentioned in the official lists (Chemical Part I (Contd):

http://lend-lease.airforce.ru/english/documents/index.htm

It is awhile I have last checked the lists, but the only pigment which I could find quickly find and which was supplied to SU is zinc oxide (24 640 lbs). For paint raw materials I am not very well versed but there was nearly 26,5 million pounds of Ethylene Glycol supplied to SU. It could be used making alkyd paints (glyptals like M-138 and pentaphtals like the A-xx) but it undoubtedly had also other uses. It should be noted that the lists do not include spare parts etc. and I guess this is how Lend-Lease paints ended up in Soviet Union if they did. I would not be surprised if the Hurricane and early P-40 deliveries to Murmansk and Archangel included also paints. Later ALSIB route deliveries likely had not such support. BTW has anyone else wondered why the kill markings on Soviet P-40s seem to have rectangular painted background to them? Were Soviet (brush-paintable ?) laquers cooking the DuPont paints (synthetic - alkyd - Dulux or cellulose Duco?) and needed barrier layer under them (like glyptal M 138)?

Of interest for me is also the huge amount of phenol formaldehyde and it's manufacturing ingredients which were shipped to Soviet Union. I posted about it at the TOCH forum (in 2006!) but it didn't raise much interest nor response. I quote from the thread ( http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=6699 ):

"...It is also interesting that Soviet Union received 784 120 lbs phenol formaldehyde as Lend-Lease deliveries (plus 36 556 252 lbs phenol and 1 119 800 lbs formaldehyde). Phenol formaldehyde resin - better known as Bakelite - was used as adhesive for delta-wood and normal plywood. How big was Soviet Union's own production of these strategic materials? ..."

Would the stop of this supply have ended the wooden aircraft production in Soviet Union?

Cheers,

Kari

[Nick Millman]

Zinc oxide, whilst used as a white pigment, usually as Pigment White 4, has many other industrial uses. In pigments it is slightly translucent with a tendency to become brittle and to yellow if subjected to heat. Because of its weak characteristics it is usually mixed with other white pigments as a type of extender.

The most obvious use of ethylene glycol is as anti-freeze!

One of the problems with the "standards were not followed" hypotheses is that they tend to reinforce an information vacuum. Ok, so the colours applied were not those specified - then what were they? Too often the hypotheses challenge the available evidence but offer no solid alternative evidence beyond a statement of belief. Not very helpful unless you are one of those modellers happy to apply any paint colour in the belief that "standards were not followed and anything went". Sometimes it even seems as though the preferred paint choice on a model is used to justify the hypothesis rather than the other way around. In the absence of definitive data partial evidence is arguably a better guide to choice than no evidence.

Thanks for showing the tractor paints Kari. Until I saw them I had the impression that they were very bright, garish greens!

[Massimo Tessitori]

Interesting. Thank you for sharing these scans.

The KSX-14 too (I hope to have read it right) looks similar to aircraft greens, at least in this scan. Are these colors for metals only or suitable for other materials too?

It seems that the 'tractor green' was always interpreted, in Western iconography, as the color of many Western tractors, light and bright.

One of the problems with the "standards were not followed" hypotheses is that they tend to reinforce an information vacuum. Ok, so the colours applied were not those specified - then what were they? Too often the hypotheses challenge the available evidence but offer no solid alternative evidence beyond a statement of belief. Not very helpful unless you are one of those modellers happy to apply any paint colour in the belief that "standards were not followed and anything went". Sometimes it even seems as though the preferred paint choice on a model is used to justify the hypothesis rather than the other way around. In the absence of definitive data partial evidence is arguably a better guide to choice than no evidence.

I agree. In general, I think that one should reasonably suppose that standard were forthemost followed, unless this becomes uncompatible with some photographic evidence or other reliable informations on some particular subjects.

Regards

Massimo

[John Thompson]

It seems that the 'tractor green' was always interpreted, in Western iconography, as the color of many Western tractors, light and bright.

Once again...

"Nothing runs like a Deere"

John

[Master Zen]

I love how this thread has gone from whether one kit is good or bad into a PhD-like discussion on pigments

[Learstang]

I love how this thread has gone from whether one kit is good or bad into a PhD-like discussion on pigments

Welcome to the wonderful world of VVS colours, Master Zen, where each discussion eventually devolves into how many angels can dance on the head of a pin (hmmm, is that pin natural metal or AII Aluminium?)!

Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi all,

I resuscitate this old topic to correct a thing:

two years ago I wrote that this photo (from 4+ monograph) was a proof of the use of grey instead of brown on this plane (and maybe other ones of 1945).

Now my idea is that the image was colorized, so it has not probative value.

I've preferred to represent these planes with the usual brown-grey-green camo in the latest version of my drawing.

Regards

Massimo

[rwoolven76]

I have an Eduard IL2 weekend kit that I bought ages ago and have never dared to build for fear of having to work out what damn colour to paint it. Sadly after reading this thread I feel none the wiser, other than that the colours on the box are fairly likely to be wrong.

:-(