SMER 1/72 IL2 is it anygood?

[John Thompson]

I just stumbled upon this build of the Smer Il-2, so I thought I'd post the link here in case phat trev might find it useful:

http://www.modelforum.cz/viewtopic.php?f=5...p;sk=t&sd=a

Obviously the text is Czech; I haven't (yet) tried Google Translate on it, but it is usually almost understandable with other languages!

John

[Massimo Tessitori]

Sorry Massimo, I got a bit carried away and did not mean to ignore your point on 1941 Il-2s. Well, here, in my view, the situation is as follows - the standard colors for Il-2s was green over azure blue... I believe there are photos of pre-war Il-2s confirming it. But on 19-06-1941 - -the order came out to introduce disruptive camo patterns - here's the text of it - http://www.alexanderyakovlev.org/fond/issues-doc/1011994 note the date of completion - 20-july-1941. The famous Zhikharev instruction was signed into print only after the beginning of the war on the 23rd of july (it also prescribed the new positions of red stars, which you probably know was never really followed).

It is hard to say now how many regiments and how quickly the factories would react to this order, but it is fair to assume that a large number of Il-2s in the first couple of months of war would be all green tops.

The patterns of those that were repainted would be widely varied and would bare resemblance within their respective units.

Sorry, I just saw your other reply, surely I will translate it - give me a couple of days -should I post it here?

Regarding the photo-- here we come again to the attempts to tell what would be the colors on black and white photos... to me that plane looks uniform green, one would expect a bit more contract between the fields and more consistency inside them.. those darker patches look like a shadows from a tree....however, it is just a guess.

Hi Ballsbuster, thank you for your quick reply. The use of all-green Il-2s before the war is sure, as the possibily that some of them preserved this livery after the war outbreak. It would be interesting to know if the overall green finish was utilized on later models too.

Hi John, thank you for your kind words. About the Smer kit, I built it a dozen of years ago, I remember that one can obtain a good alignment between the lower surface of fuselage and wings if removes a very thin layer of plastic in the horizontal joining surface between wings and fuselage; else, the wing makes a small step, and the work to level it could delete the details of the bombs doors.

I remember some minor difficulties about assembling the legs in their nacelles and the decals of the red stars that were slightly trasparent, but the kit was pleasant, on the whole.

The photoetched set was good for the air intake flaps and instrument panel, but the trim actuators and balances were to reject, too thin and less realistic of those moulded on the plastic.

Regards

Massimo

[Learstang]

Massimo, I had a try at translating that Russian text from BB, and it seems that it's talking about dark green being used for the interior, with some orange also. It mentions the flaps and landing gear doors being painted in the undersides blue (AMT-7), and the plywood insides of the bomb bays as being silver. It seems that I've seen this before - on your site probably. It's possible that the dark green is some variant of ALG-5 (I have seen a recovered floor of an IL-2 wreck that was green), and I would suspect that the orange paint is ALG-1. There doesn't seem to be anything too unusual, although the plywood being silver (AII Aluminium?) is a bit of a surprise - I thought that the usage of AII Aluminium had pretty much been ended early in the war, and it seems that this description is regarding a late IL-2 (it mentions the later style rocket rails, for example). At any rate, I suspect BB can render a good translation of it so we'll see if my comments are correct. I'm wondering at this point if this discussion shouldn't be continued under a new topic regarding VVS colours (if there isn't one already started)?

Regards,

Jason

[K_L]

Ballsbuster's text has been discussed at sovietwarplanes forum!!!

http://sovietwarplanes.com/board/index.php?topic=895.0

check reply 14 for translation...

This should ring the bell:

Single seater with unpainted intrerior (black-green camo scheme):

Late 1942 two-seater with metal wing:

1943 two-seater with wooden wing (3-colour camouflage scheme, dark green is ALG-5 primer!!!!!)

All three Il-2s fully comply with standards, either june 1941 or July 1943. I wonder how long we will listen to those who are telling us how there were recommendations only, how anybody could paint planes as he/she wished, how Soviet painted planes with tractor paints etc.

BallsBuster, no offence, you sound like Pilawskii!

Happy modeling,

KL

[Learstang]

Right, Konstantin. I knew I'd seen that text before. So the colours mentioned in the Russian text are all normal primer colours - ALG-1, ALG-5, and AII Aluminium.

Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Jason,

thank you for the translation.

Hi Konstantin,

I remember well that post, thank you. I just I want to know what Ballsbuster has to write. Would you allow?

Regards

Massimo

[BallsBuster]

Hi Jason,

thank you for the translation.

Hi Konstantin,

I remember well that post, thank you. I just I want to know what Ballsbuster has to write. Would you allow?

Regards

Massimo

OK - Sorry for the delay - some business carried me away, below is the promised translation (I tried to be as close to the original as possble however I had to change some of the punctuation and sentences structure:

"

I had an opportunity to review the remnants for three Il-2s retrieved from Murmansk region and transported to Kiev in 1985. All three aircraft belong to three different series from an early single seater to the “ classical” Il-2M of 1943 vintage. The most interesting aspect of this review is the painting of the internal surfaces. Regrettably the paint inside the “armoured box” did not withstand the test of time, so we can only discuss the other elements in particular the paint in the wheel wells. And actually this is the area where most heated debars occur.

The single-seater’s (of early series) interior surfaces are not painted at all and not primed either, which is very strange as the chaos of evacuations and deficit of materials was not an issue. The paint on the external surface was partially preserved. No sign of any paint on internal surfaces – Virgin aluminium (dural). I Have inspected all the internal surfaces, unfolded the bent parts the result was the same – external paint present, internal missing. The external surfaces had green-black camouflage.

Further – the so called Il-2M with the “straight” metal wing wooded tail and the rear gunners position probably added later (the gunners position had no traces of paint whatsoever), the gunners canopy of the early type, there is no “shade” on its opening part. The airplane had a green-black camouflage on upper surfaces and the paint was preserved very well (excellent) – the lower sides are still glossy even now. The internal surfaces are covered with “zinc-chromate” primer, the bomb bays’ sides are covered with plywood, glued over with linen (perkol) and painted silver (aluminium). The access panels, gun bays covers and flaps are made of plywood. All internal surfaces are painted “zinc-chromat” of various density sometimes resembling something like “Russian aotake”. There is still production number on the wheel wells covers. No traces of any other paints on the internal surfaces.

Il-2M3 – wooden consoles, tail unit. The later type of spoilers of canopy rails. The airframe is assembled with the “hidden” rivets (as opposed to the previous two Il-2s). The external surfaces are painted mid-green colour in two layers (was there a re-fit?). The upper layer of paint is much lighter than the first one. And here comes the most interesting part! The internal surfaces of this plane are not painted either, the internal parts that could be visible after the assembly were sprayed over and in some places brush painted with dark green colour. The internal seems are brush painted with orange paint. The same practise is observed at the Il-2 preserved in Finland (the plane belonged to the same period and roughly to the same region). Flaps, wheel well covers were painted in the same blue colour as lower surfaces. The wheel wells and bomb bays are painted dark green. There is still silver painted plywood in the bomb bays.

There are also the fragments of Pe-2 with “turtle” canopy and Db-3F. Their internal surfaces are also “zinc chromate”. Pe-2 external camo is black-green – sprayed. Db-3F is green with sand-brown. The Db-3F however is in a very poor state and only some specks of paint remained on the primer which are noticeable only examining photos of it closely. There also too few fragments left of this particular aircraft. There is a propeller and the area tail wheel leg attachment. The wheel leg and the areas around it were painted blue over the primer. Il-4 displayed at the Poklonaya Gora (its wings) and the fragments from the finish remnants bare the same color." End of translation.

- BallsBuster, no offence, you sound like Pilawskii!

None taken - my name is not Erik, as I mentioned before I am not closely familiar with his works and do not see the stigma in the name. If however "Pilawskii" means looking at the things from a wider angle and try to embrace the reality as it is, I guess you might be correct.

Besides, I cannot derive from the text above how the third aircraft can be three color if it clearly states that it is one? But may be it is just me...

"All three Il-2s fully comply with standards, either june 1941 or July 1943. I wonder how long we will listen to those who are telling us how there were recommendations only, how anybody could paint planes as he/she wished, how Soviet painted planes with tractor paints etc."

- Before we all lose track here let's first define "standards". Where the aircraft painted - yes. Where they painted with standard paints - yes and no. They were painted with paints that were available at hand, thinned with the solvent available at hand. If at some moment of time the factory would run out of one kind of paint they would paint the airframe with two colors instead of three (which the article above exemplifies) and the shades would vary hugely. Where they all painted the same? Again yes and no with stronger flavor to NO. Because:

-Руководство - translated from Russian is still more of Guidelines than instruction.

- Even the existing Rukovodstvo - consisted of only of a couple of drawings (эскиз - sketch) - the 1941 one mentioned above had only one of those (we all know it was not observed at all) and no stencils existed for camouflage (I would be glad if anyone proves me wrong it would make my life as a modeler much easier)

- The paining was performed by an industrial spray gun by 14-16 year olds working 12 hour shifts 7 days a week. And that on meager rations. Do you really think they or plants managers were concerned or bothered by exact correspondence to guidelines?

And before we continue on standards - here's a historic fact on the standard of Shturmovic production: in June 1943 practically all Il-2s of 232 ShAD/2nd ShAk/1 VA (232 Shturmovaya Division) were out of commission due to the defects of external surface. 4th Guards ShAD of 5th ShAK in reserve of VGK had 60% of its new Il-2s out of commission for the same reason on the 3rd of June 1943 - as the result these divisions could only re-locate towards Kursk (remember the battle?) on the 15th of July and participated in it only in the closing phase. Now... how much attention do you think was paid in those conditions to the "standard camouflage"

Sorry - have to stop here before I will go into a rant of the need to ... anyway.. time for bed

[Learstang]

Thank you for the translation, BB! Interesting stuff.

Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi BB,

thank you for the translation.

Il-2M3 – wooden consoles, tail unit. The later type of spoilers of canopy rails. The airframe is assembled with the “hidden” rivets (as opposed to the previous two Il-2s). The external surfaces are painted mid-green colour in two layers (was there a re-fit?). The upper layer of paint is much lighter than the first one.

This point is interesting, but is the wreck large enough to exclude that there are camouflage bands on other parts of its surface?

Another question: the grey dots on the surface of this wing

Is it possible to know if it's natural metal, or a grey overspraying? Its rounded borders resemble those of an air brush.

Db-3F is green with sand-brown. The Db-3F however is in a very poor state and only some specks of paint remained on the primer which are noticeable only examining photos of it closely.

DB-3 and, more rarely, DB-3F are often shown in photos with non-standard camouflages. I've always supposed that the light parts were a badly covered aluminium surface (their prewar factory finish) but I can't exclude it was light brown.

Regards

Massimo

[Learstang]

Another question: the grey dots on the surface of this wing

Is it possible to know if it's natural metal, or a grey overspraying? Its rounded borders resemble those of an air brush.

I had thought it was oxidised aluminium, but looking at an unpainted piece of the aluminium next to it (the top left corner), it does look like a light-coloured paint (perhaps Ae-9 or MK-7?). Is it possible it's some sort of partial winter finish?

Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Jason,

I had thought it was oxidised aluminium, but looking at an unpainted piece of the aluminium next to it (the top left corner), it does look like a light-coloured paint (perhaps Ae-9 or MK-7?). Is it possible it's some sort of partial winter finish?

Ae-9, possibly; MK-7 is washable and can't survive so long.

Regards

Massimo

[BallsBuster]

Hi BB,

thank you for the translation.

This point is interesting, but is the wreck large enough to exclude that there are camouflage bands on other parts of its surface?

Another question: the grey dots on the surface of this wing

Is it possible to know if it's natural metal, or a grey overspraying? Its rounded borders resemble those of an air brush.

DB-3 and, more rarely, DB-3F are often shown in photos with non-standard camouflages. I've always supposed that the light parts were a badly covered aluminium surface (their prewar factory finish) but I can't exclude it was light brown.

Regards

Massimo

You are most welcome. glad if I could help.

Regarding your note on the size - hard to say, from the text I would infer that the "armored capsule" and the centerplane are present as well as the tail unit and (at least parts of it) so if there was camo on that aircraft the remnants of it should have been noticed. The note on the lighter second layer of paint - may be it was the same shade but faded due to the exposure to the elements.

I plan to be in Kiev next year and although this museum is not my favorite, time permitting, I will try and visit and it the wreck is still there will let you know.

Regarding the grey dots - this as I understand is the wreck of the second or the first aircraft (early or mid) - note the rivets. The text does not mention any other paint on top surfaces (and as they definitely were produced and probably lost pre August 1943 it seems that gray should not be there... these dots look to me as the places were paint wore or rubbed off and the gray surface is just "aged metal".

regarding the browns - AMT-1 is in general a bit of a conundrum in the whole palette as you know it was in nomenclature from pre-war period but not used on the regular basis (although it was used on MiG-3 (and others) in "the field" and LaGG-3s in production apparently). Averin in his article says that the spec for АМТ-1 and А-21М was changed in the middle of the war and with it the shade of it changed as well and that is when it became light brown (or coffee-milk) as opposed to the early ochre (or "brownish sand") - source - Аверин А. Палитра войны // МИГ: монография, история, графика. Вып. 1.М., 1994. I just found this mag and have not read it very attentively (due to the lack of time). Although many sources mention that the spec allowed to a very noticeable change of hue based on the conditions of storage of the paint drums.

Overall, "anything is possible" in terms of Il-2 the sheer volumes of production and use in the field added to the pressures of maintaining output warrant massive deviations from prescribed guidelines.

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi BB,

thank you for your answer.

So, you will go to Kiev museum on next year... so, we'll know for sure if that is bare metal or grey paint. It would be good to find a FS catalogue or some other collection of chips to obtain further informations from this visit.

About the green plane, I think t see something similar to remains of black and brown, but it could be some other thing. I hope that it will be possible to look to them closely to be sure.

AMT-1 is really tricky. I would know more on the work ov Averin and his sources.

By the way, I've found a photo of Il-2s in factory that are surely camouflaged by mask, but it's the very only one. It was recently seen on the Il-2 topic on scalemodels.ru and commented on Sovietwarplanes too.

Regards

Massimo

[BallsBuster]

Hi BB,

thank you for your answer.

So, you will go to Kiev museum on next year... so, we'll know for sure if that is bare metal or grey paint. It would be good to find a FS catalogue or some other collection of chips to obtain further informations from this visit.

About the green plane, I think t see something similar to remains of black and brown, but it could be some other thing. I hope that it will be possible to look to them closely to be sure.

AMT-1 is really tricky. I would know more on the work ov Averin and his sources.

By the way, I've found a photo of Il-2s in factory that are surely camouflaged by mask, but it's the very only one. It was recently seen on the Il-2 topic on scalemodels.ru and commented on Sovietwarplanes too.

Regards

Massimo

Sure, however the general consensus at the Russian forums is -"nothing is clear about Il-2 ever"... it is also a widely recognized fact that the two tone camo existed on Il-2 a while longer after August 1943 (and here I meant to say those aircraft were produced) and those guidelines were not closely observed - how often you see broken two grays camo on fighters? Just a small example here is a later Il-2 of 233 ShAD in 1944 - http://postimage.org/image/2rp89v30k/

Also one tone scheme was not very rare in 1944 - even if you ignore the Il-10 widely supplied in plain green, there was for example La-7 of one tome dark gray of the whole 176th GIAP.

BTW - was the Il-2 in Kbely re-painted or it still in its original scheme? I am not sure if it can be used as a reference point.

And finally, Averin does make one great and often ommited point in many discussions - the use of lend lease paints in the aircraft production. They were widely supplied and used and I have doubts where they would be similar to the domestic ones.

The photo is very interesting - I have seen photos and even if memory tells correctly films of a free-hand approach. Would those masks be centrally supplied or a locally produced initiative -still unclear.... i will try and find this discussion.

Edited December 8, 2011 by BallsBuster

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Ballsbuster,

BTW - was the Il-2 in Kbely re-painted or it still in its original scheme? I am not sure if it can be used as a reference point.

The Il-2 in Kbely was surely repainted; till few years ago, it was camouflaged in red brown and olive green, and that paint was not original too. Probably the original painting was so:

Images from 4+ monograph

It's a 1943 camouflage modified by replacing the AMT-1 with AMT-11. Probably a compromise to conform partially to the instructions of 1945. On bw photos, the AMT-11 appears undistinguishable from AMT-1 light brown.

The use of Western paint is new to me. Is this proven? I've seen a lot of US and British planes whose markings were obliterated with Soviet colors, as the use of AMT-4 green to delete the blue or white fields around the stars of the P-39 preserved in Tikkanoki Museum. Besides, it would be interesting to know if they supplied the same paints utilized on US planes or vehicles, or an imitation of the Soviet paints made in USA.

About that photo of Il-2 in factory: unfortunately I wasn't able to identify photos of operative Il-2s with the same 'puzzle' pattern. Probably very few planes were painted in that way.

Regards

Massimo

[BallsBuster]

Hi Ballsbuster,

About that photo of Il-2 in factory: unfortunately I wasn't able to identify photos of operative Il-2s with the same 'puzzle' pattern. Probably very few planes were painted in that way.

Regards

Massimo

Hi Massimo,

Thanks for the clarification regarding the Kbely aircraft.

Above I posted a link to the the photo of two tones late type Il-2 dated 1944. I am not 100% sure about the year although the markings do seem to be consistent.

Regarding the use of lend lease paints - Averin does refer to it in his article and I am sure he is correct there (actually his academic credentials are rather impressive and his dissertation on pre-war soviet aviation must be an interesting read). The constant deficit of paints and pigments during the war is also mentioned by a large number of sources and their use is admitted rather widely. Regrettably, I have not yet found the exact names of what was imported but the fact that large quantities of paints and ingredients for paints (pigments etc is indisputable (it can actually be found in many western sources http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/.../6315/lend.html the list seems to be rather detailed and mentions paints.

Kondrashov (if memory tells me correctly) mentioned (rather theoretised) in his piece that one of the reasons for the transfer of fighters to the gray scheme in 1943 was partially due to the deficit of pigments required for green paints... not sure about it 100%, but in his article it did sound plausible, and could have been one of the factors.

[Test Graham]

Green pigment was in short supply, on the Allied side at least. The Royal Navy had to abandon its use of greens, in the Western Approaches scheme for example, and the Army had to change to a brown, in order to keep the RAF supplied with green paint.

This does refer to true greens: Olive Drab comes from black and yellow, without green pigment, and it may be that the USAAF abandoning of Medium Green trim was also related to the same shortage. However, the USN adopted green camouflage for its amphibious craft and dedicated small ships - perhaps that's where the pigment went? (Actually no: this was perhaps two years after the British changes.) However,. the USN adoption would be at about the same time the VVS went to greys.

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Ballsbuster,

Above I posted a link to the the photo of two tones late type Il-2 dated 1944. I am not 100% sure about the year although the markings do seem to be consistent.

Good image. This is a black-green plane with a recognizable factory pattern (factory n.30, I think) and the stars without the white-red outline utilized before the summer 1943. It could be that the photo is of 1944, but the plane was probably built and painted before August 1943. The short aerial mast identifies it as an early straight wing Il-2, probably of the first half of 1943.

Kondrashov (if memory tells me correctly) mentioned (rather theoretised) in his piece that one of the reasons for the transfer of fighters to the gray scheme in 1943 was partially due to the deficit of pigments required for green paints... not sure about it 100%, but in his article it did sound plausible, and could have been one of the factors.

Very likely. Orlov states the same thing.

In the list of lend-lease materials there are chromium salts and pigments, it's likely that it includes the chromium oxyde utilized as green pigment for AMT-4 and 4BO.

Hi Graham,

This does refer to true greens: Olive Drab comes from black and yellow, without green pigment, and it may be that the USAAF abandoning of Medium Green trim was also related to the same shortage

Yellow and black... who knows what yellow pigment they utilized? However, Olive Drab was interestingly prone to fading, while the chromium oxyde is very stable, in facts wrecks of Soviet wartime planes appear rather bright, probably due to the decay of other pigments mixed in their dark green.

Regards

Massimo

[Kari Lumppio]

Hello!

This is interesting theme for which I would like to be able to devote more time. I fear if I finally do have plenty of time for this it means I have been laid off my job...

Some random thoughts follow:

If more than half of aircraft fleet is grounded because of substandard finish the answer is more careless finish of the planes? Really I think not. My recollection of the Soviet/Russian material I read with the help of translator robot is that the reason for the masses of unflyable planes was actually use of an improper pigment. Instead of micaceous red iron oxide (see for example: http://micaceousironoxide.com/ ) ordinary ground red pigment was used. The result was that moisture impregnated to the fabric coverings and caused loss of adhesion. Sheets of paint and fabric were teared off and this resulted in losses and grounding of aircrafts. Once again correct me if my understanding is wrong (Ballsbuster?).

I very much oppose the thought that the Soviet-era instructions/guidelines were "recommendations" only. For example the 1943 Field repair manual (search for it, at least scalemodels.ru threads have had links for it?) gives no approved substitutions for the A-24M (green), A-26M (black) and A-28M (light blue). Interestingly for the interior paint A-14 there is approved substitution - A-28M (this may be the source for EP/WEM "ALG-5"???). Similarly for the AMT-4 (green), AMT-6 (black) and AMT-7 (light blue) there are no approved substitutions given.

Two-tone and "old" camo in 1945. Reading the Soviet prisoner of war protocols it becomes clear that even in early 1945 there were several shturmovik regiments which had straight wing Il-2s in their strenghts. Old type camo should not be a surprise, then. What becomes to my sources this is something I like to hold the cards very much against my chest for the time being, so please forgive me.

Soviet pigments. I posted about these in the scalemodels.ru in the Pilawskii thread, page 11; http://scalemodels.ru/modules/forum/viewto..._start_200.html The yellow pigments were: yellow iron oxide (ochre), lead chromate and zinc chromate. The Soviet green military paints used (and use?) AFAIK both chrome green pigment and yellow ochre&black-mix in the same time, the mixture of the different pigments was important for the paint reflective qualities in the near infrared band (against vegetation). NATO thought about this only in the sixties-seventies? (google NATO olive and infrared).

Brown and green Il-2 camo. Soviet-era manuals do allow painting nitro laquers over glyptal primer on duraluminium surfaces (link for such manuals have been posted at scalemodels.ru -forum IIRC). To refresh memory below should be picture from Albom Nakrasok aviation primers:

The primer (M-)138 (the topmost sample) is glyptal primer which can be used on wood, steel and duraluminium. What if during the 1943 crisis it was decided to do without the badly adhesing fabric covering (which was put on the M-138 primer layers) alltogether and green nitro laquer like AMT-4 was painted over the 138 primer? To speed up production to fulfill the need. Nitro laquers dry much quicker than alkyd enamels, for example. Result would be (red)brown and green camo. This is just to feed the imagination, I am not pressing this as a fact.

I would like to stress that paint on aircraft is there to protect the material under it. For the engineer the colour of the paint is in most times irrelevant. For customer - like an air force - it may or may not be so. For us modellers the exact colour is of course the most important factor, yes?

Regards,

Kari

[K_L]

Ballsbuster,

You are saying that you are looking at the things from a wider angle and trying to embrace the reality as it is, but your posts suffer from stereotypes!

For example:

The paining was performed by an industrial spray gun by 14-16 year olds working 12 hour shifts 7 days a week. And that on meager rations. Do you really think they or plants managers were concerned or bothered by exact correspondence to guidelines?

The reality was more complex: there were 15 years boys in factories, but there were more experienced, older guys too. Following are photos from Factory 51 (Moscow), winter 1942/43; I-16 overhaul

Il-2 production, mostly Factory 18 (Kuibishev)

Not all workers there are 15 years old!!!

A large number of women worked in aviation factories too

In USA they would call her “Rosie the Riveter”, here she is seen as the cause for low quality of Il-2s

On following photos I see a large scale, mass production. This would not be possible if there were chronicle deficits of relatively small details like paints. The key factors for mass production were: standardization, unification, simplification, not improvisation.

Zavod 18 made over 15,000 Shturmovics in 3 years! This wouldn’t be possible if there were deficits you mentioned so many times.

Happu modeling,

KL

Edited December 8, 2011 by K_L

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi,

The primer (M-)138 (the topmost sample) is glyptal primer which can be used on wood, steel and duraluminium.

Was this primer an alternative to the zinc-chromate ALG-1 and ALG-5?

Here is a photo from Scalemodels.ru showing a piece of Il-2 that shows both reddish and yellowish colors:

Were they overposed? What could be the reason for the use of two primers?

I very much oppose the thought that the Soviet-era instructions/guidelines were "recommendations" only. For example the 1943 Field repair manual (search for it, at least scalemodels.ru threads have had links for it?) gives no approved substitutions for the A-24M (green), A-26M (black) and A-28M (light blue). Interestingly for the interior paint A-14 there is approved substitution - A-28M (this may be the source for EP/WEM "ALG-5"???). Similarly for the AMT-4 (green), AMT-6 (black) and AMT-7 (light blue) there are no approved substitutions given.

This is interesting, but what about the 4BO that is said to have been utilized as a substitution of AMT-4 and other greens, or to the use of AII light blue after 1941? The wreck of the Il-2 in Kiev shows a glossy blue undersurface, and only this paint had a glossy finish. Perhaps the stocks of AII light blue were ended in 1943, but still utilized in 1941/42?

Hi Konstantin, you've posted an impressive file of photos. Here there are many photos showing the 'puzzle' camouflage. Again, I've to make a further effort to look on photos of operative planes if I can recognize it.

It seems that already camouflaged wings were installed on still unpainted planes.

I am surprised to see bombs in the factory. I suppose that they are inert bombs used to test the racks.

Regards

Massimo

[Ed Russell]

The reality was more complex: there were 15 years boys in factories, but there were more experienced, older guys too. Following are photos from Factory 51 (Moscow), winter 1942/43; I-16 overhaul

I do so like photographic evidence - I am sure there were 15yo's employed but not one to be seen in the photos!

[Nick Millman]

Green pigment was in short supply, on the Allied side at least. The Royal Navy had to abandon its use of greens, in the Western Approaches scheme for example, and the Army had to change to a brown, in order to keep the RAF supplied with green paint.

This does refer to true greens: Olive Drab comes from black and yellow, without green pigment, and it may be that the USAAF abandoning of Medium Green trim was also related to the same shortage. However, the USN adopted green camouflage for its amphibious craft and dedicated small ships - perhaps that's where the pigment went? (Actually no: this was perhaps two years after the British changes.) However,. the USN adoption would be at about the same time the VVS went to greys.

It was chromium oxide green pigment (Pigment Green 17/C.I. 77288 Chrome Oxide Green Cr2O3) that was in short supply during the war. There were/are other green pigments but chromium oxide green was especially favoured for aircraft camouflage paint for various reasons I won't go into here.

And whilst this yellow + black = olive drab thing is much beloved of modellers the reality of olive drab pigmentation and chemistry was more complex than that. In fact Dupont had originally used chrome oxide green in their OD formula until it became difficult to stock and they then had to revise the formula. The formulae of other manufacturers was continuously revised too, mainly in response to pigment procurement but also to quality issues. For example the Murphy Varnish company revised their own OD formula when they encountered problems with the supply of Phthalocyanine Blue (which is not yellow or black!). The criteria was for proprietory paint samples to match the standard and for liquid samples to pass approval by the testing of 26 properties at Wright Field, including viscosity, drying time, adhesion, resistance to water and other fluids, durability, flexibility and colour. Once approved each manufacturers OD was given a unique reference number. Dana Bell addressed this and other matters relating to the details of OD in his article for SAM (Feb 2002 Vol 23 No 12) which is recommended.

Paint industry technology during the war was a moving feast. It didn't remain static and I suspect the same was true for the Soviets.

[Nick Millman]

Here is a photo from Scalemodels.ru showing a piece of Il-2 that shows both reddish and yellowish colors:

Were they overposed? What could be the reason for the use of two primers?

Regards

Massimo

I suspect that is the result of extreme degradation of the paint film. The formula may provide clues as to likely colour shifts from heat and environmental exposure - I presume this paint surface has been long exposed.

[occa]

Hi Ballsbuster,

The Il-2 in Kbely was surely repainted; till few years ago, it was camouflaged in red brown and olive green, and that paint was not original too. Probably the original painting was so:

Images from 4+ monograph

.....

Wow, I never thought I would ever see original Russian WW2 colour photos, are there more somewhere?

Edited December 9, 2011 by occa