SMER 1/72 IL2 is it anygood?

[BallsBuster]

Yeah, well understood. It's not a great image for discerning colours - if you squint at it enough, you could almost convince yourself that it's the three-colour scheme, but OTOH, the pattern doesn't look right. I wasn't really sweating the issue - I hope I didn't mislead anyone. The statement, "No green/brown camouflage", is almost obligatory when discussing the Il-2 and VVS fighters, since it's been a subject of repeated and persistent confusion for decades (check the box art on Airfix's recent Yak-9 reissue, for example).

John

VVS camo schemes is a vague area by itself... brown was used on bombers and ground attack (Il-2 ) aircraft throughout the war (although more rare in 1941 first half of 1942). It indeed disappeared from the fighters from mid 1943 (as well as green) BTW, but was used on Il-2s untill after the war.

Two tonal upper surfaces camo (brown/green) appeared on Il-2 in 1942 and was not a rarity. As ochre was an "additional-optional" colour in 1942 it was applied by hand in the field and there could have been any kind of variations. Even among of the aircraft of the same unit. In other words - welcome to the uncertain world of VVS colours....

[John Thompson]

VVS camo schemes is a vague area by itself... brown was used on bombers and ground attack (Il-2 ) aircraft throughout the war (although more rare in 1941 first half of 1942). It indeed disappeared from the fighters from mid 1943 (as well as green) BTW, but was used on Il-2s untill after the war.

Two tonal upper surfaces camo (brown/green) appeared on Il-2 in 1942 and was not a rarity. As ochre was an "additional-optional" colour in 1942 it was applied by hand in the field and there could have been any kind of variations. Even among of the aircraft of the same unit. In other words - welcome to the uncertain world of VVS colours....

"Welcome to the world of VVS colours"? Thanks, but I've been there for a while. While the exact tone of some of those colours may be disputed, there were definite standards, so uncertainty isn't necessary in most cases. Regarding the colour "brown", which I was referring to only as a misconceived, even imaginary thing with no basis in fact, you're apparently using the word in a more specific sense. The only brownish colour I can find among the VVS GPW standards is AMT-1 and its metal-surface counterpart A-21m. These two paints were implemented as part of the three-colour scheme for ground attack, bomber, and transport aircraft, in late 1943. So, no brown/green (and grey)camouflage on Il-2's before that date. Perhaps you're interpreting the common AMT-6 Black/AMT-4 Green pre-1943 scheme as brown and green? Your post is more accurate if you substitute the word "black" for "brown"...

Explanations based on the notion of random "field-applied" schemes should be ignored unless supported by photographic evidence. Especially if they involve the application of nonexistent colours such as "Tractor Green" or "Ochre".

John

[BallsBuster]

"Welcome to the world of VVS colours"? Thanks, but I've been there for a while. While the exact tone of some of those colours may be disputed, there were definite standards, so uncertainty isn't necessary in most cases. Regarding the colour "brown", which I was referring to only as a misconceived, even imaginary thing with no basis in fact, you're apparently using the word in a more specific sense. The only brownish colour I can find among the VVS GPW standards is AMT-1 and its metal-surface counterpart A-21m. These two paints were implemented as part of the three-colour scheme for ground attack, bomber, and transport aircraft, in late 1943. So, no brown/green (and grey)camouflage on Il-2's before that date. Perhaps you're interpreting the common AMT-6 Black/AMT-4 Green pre-1943 scheme as brown and green? Your post is more accurate if you substitute the word "black" for "brown"...

Explanations based on the notion of random "field-applied" schemes should be ignored unless supported by photographic evidence. Especially if they involve the application of nonexistent colours such as "Tractor Green" or "Ochre".

John

Do not want to be seen as too obsessed and nit-picking but:

- the three color camo was developed in the second half of 1942 and was introduced and used widely from the beginning of 1943. So, roughly from march 43 the usage of AMT-1 is well justified.

- There are various interpretation of what AMT-1 would look like and it did vary widely based on the batch and method of application.

- There was another "brown" color in the VVS palette listed as 280SMTU in the pre-war nomenclature - also sometime referred to as "tobacco". (see the Vakhlamov's article). And this is probably what is often referred as OCHRE (btw this description is widely used in Russian documents). The tractor green color is a western invention and most likely refers to 4BO... actually civilian trucks and tractors were often painted with it too....

- Despite the instruction the production of the aircarft in two tonal camo (black-green) in 1942 was still rather sporadic and the whole batches of aircraft were shipped with just green upersides. This was widely recognized and accepted and thus the ground crews were tasked in applying either black or brown colors on the tops of aircraft. Those were both hand and airbrushed depending upon present equipment and hence the huge variations in patterns. Brown/green Il-2s (two seaters) are a very real possibility. I have seen in some articles the statements that black and green aircraft were also supplemented with brown, but I am not 100% sure about it.

- the usage of brown (in its various shades) in the period of 1941 and 42 is widely documented as even fighters dabbed into it. Pokryshkins wrote a lot about his mis-adventures with a brown (sandy) MiG-3 in his memoirs.

- I disagree with your point in field applied schemes as it was and still is a common practice in the Soviet and now Russian armed forces. In fact, field camo modifications were always widely encouraged. Saying that, you are absolutely correct and I fully agree with you that when possible the camo schemes should be supported by the photo references.

Edited November 4, 2011 by BallsBuster

[John Thompson]

Do not want to be seen as too obsessed and nit-picking but:

- the three color camo was developed in the second half of 1942 and was introduced and used widely from the beginning of 1943. So, roughly from march 43 the usage of AMT-1 is well justified.

- There are various interpretation of what AMT-1 would look like and it did vary widely based on the batch and method of application.

- There was another "brown" color in the VVS palette listed as 280SMTU in the pre-war nomenclature - also sometime referred to as "tobacco". (see the Vakhlamov's article). And this is probably what is often referred as OCHRE (btw this description is widely used in Russian documents). The tractor green color is a western invention and most likely refers to 4BO... actually civilian trucks and tractors were often painted with it too....

- Despite the instruction the production of the aircarft in two tonal camo (black-green) in 1942 was still rather sporadic and the whole batches of aircraft were shipped with just green upersides. This was widely recognized and accepted and thus the ground crews were tasked in applying either black or brown colors on the tops of aircraft. Those were both hand and airbrushed depending upon present equipment and hence the huge variations in patterns. Brown/green Il-2s (two seaters) are a very real possibility. I have seen in some articles the statements that black and green aircraft were also supplemented with brown, but I am not 100% sure about it.

- the usage of brown (in its various shades) in the period of 1941 and 42 is widely documented as even fighters dabbed into it. Pokryshkins wrote a lot about his mis-adventures with a brown (sandy) MiG-3 in his memoirs.

- I disagree with your point in field applied schemes as it was and still is a common practice in the Soviet and now Russian armed forces. In fact, field camo modifications were always widely encouraged. Saying that, you are absolutely correct and I fully agree with you that when possible the camo schemes should be supported by the photo references.

Thanks, BB - that makes things clearer. I'm sorry if I seemed a bit touchy, or even rude, about this. I'm still not fully convinced, but what you say is certainly something to think about. "Ochre" makes me think of a certain researcher's generous application of a colour called "Ochre Brown" to the Il-2; this is a colour which doesn't appear (nor does anything even close) in any chart based on VVS standards, nor does it appear in any works by two very dedicated and thorough Il-2 researchers, Viktor Povinsky and Massimo Tessitori. His "Tractor Green" or "Industrial Green" is also a far, far cry from 4BO; it seems to have been inspired by what's seen on modern farm equipment from the John Deere company:

Best regards;

John

Edited November 4, 2011 by John Thompson

[BallsBuster]

Thanks, BB - that makes things clearer. I'm sorry if I seemed a bit touchy, or even rude, about this. I'm still not fully convinced, but what you say is certainly something to think about. "Ochre" makes me think of a certain researcher's generous application of a colour called "Ochre Brown" to the Il-2; this is a colour which doesn't appear (nor does anything even close) in any chart based on VVS standards, nor does it appear in any works by two very dedicated and thorough Il-2 researchers, Viktor Povinsky and Massimo Tessitori. His "Tractor Green" or "Industrial Green" is also a far, far cry from 4BO; it seems to have been inspired by what's seen on modern farm equipment from the John Deere company:

Best regards;

John

Glad if I could help. The whole issue is made completely arcane by a complete lack of standard per say in the Soviet VVS of that period. In fact, the instructions on painting the aircraft were not really standards but rather guidelines (to quote a movie pirate). In fact, those documents were called what can be translated "guidelines".

The issue of 4BO is even more vague - the shade would depend upon the type of solvent used (and at hand) and the proportion of it at hand, method of application and even the temperature. And this I know from personal experience. I would presume that the weird name "tractor green" comes from the color often seen on ground equipment (trucks, tanks tractors etc), which at that time in the majority of the cases were painted 4BO - despite the civilian use. The later practice BTW was spread in the USSR until mid eighties when the majority of trucks were still painted green. Presumably they could be mobilixed for the military use in a jiffy... it seems that this did work out like this in 1941. But this is just a guess, and I have never seen this paint definition in any Russian sources.

[mholly]

Glad if I could help. The whole issue is made completely arcane by a complete lack of standard per say in the Soviet VVS of that period. In fact, the instructions on painting the aircraft were not really standards but rather guidelines (to quote a movie pirate). In fact, those documents were called what can be translated "guidelines".

The issue of 4BO is even more vague - the shade would depend upon the type of solvent used (and at hand) and the proportion of it at hand, method of application and even the temperature. And this I know from personal experience. I would presume that the weird name "tractor green" comes from the color often seen on ground equipment (trucks, tanks tractors etc), which at that time in the majority of the cases were painted 4BO - despite the civilian use. The later practice BTW was spread in the USSR until mid eighties when the majority of trucks were still painted green. Presumably they could be mobilixed for the military use in a jiffy... it seems that this did work out like this in 1941. But this is just a guess, and I have never seen this paint definition in any Russian sources.

I have a question for you. Did you read Vakhlamov-Orlov work in it's entirety?

If not PLEASE don't fuel further confusion and stick to your Pilawskii's book.

Thanks,

Mario

[BallsBuster]

I have a question for you. Did you read Vakhlamov-Orlov work in it's entirety?

If not PLEASE don't fuel further confusion and stick to your Pilawskii's book.

Thanks,

Mario

I read whatever they published in in M-Hobby. Did they published anything else anywhere? And actually I never read and do not have Pilawskii's book, and thus have no opinion on his work. The only thing I read by him was an article in SAM a while ago - do not remember much from that, sorry.

Besides, it seems to be a bigger folly to try and persuade someone in the existence of some sort of system when there was none. It seems wiser to take a more flexible approach than stick to the patterns existing in your own imagination.

[mholly]

I read whatever they published in in M-Hobby. Did they published anything else anywhere? And actually I never read and do not have Pilawskii's book, and thus have no opinion on his work. The only thing I read by him was an article in SAM a while ago - do not remember much from that, sorry.

Besides, it seems to be a bigger folly to try and persuade someone in the existence of some sort of system when there was none. It seems wiser to take a more flexible approach than stick to the patterns existing in your own imagination.

Well in that case I don't really understand how you can say there was no system in VVS colors and camouflage. Or speak about wide use of brown color on bombers AND fighters (!) before 1943!

Did you study original Russian texts or someone translated them for you? You must forgive me but some of your fairly bold statements are completely contrary to what Vakhlamov/Orlov wrote.

Mario

[BallsBuster]

Well in that case I don't really understand how you can say there was no system in VVS colors and camouflage. Or speak about wide use of brown color on bombers AND fighters (!) before 1943!

Did you study original Russian texts or someone translated them for you? You must forgive me but some of your fairly bold statements are completely contrary to what Vakhlamov/Orlov wrote.

Mario

Of course, I read them myself (believe me, my Russian is way better than my English), and that is why I do state what I say. BTW the "non-existant" paint number quoted above is taken from Vaklamov's article.

In my opinion, and direct personal experience, it is not very wise to be dogmatic about anything relating to the Soviet armed forces (and especially during the WW2). The system existed in the form of "recommendations", which were constantly deviated from, both on production and front line unit level. These deviations in camouflage were also encouraged in the field manuals and orders for unit commanders prompting them to do anything to enhance camouflage. Closer to the end of the war this practice resulted in the wild array of picturesque paintings on the aircraft (despite the potential harm they could make being good targeting prompts).

Returning to the IL-2 issue - here is the article on the painting practices of Il-2s (extract from a book ) - http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AirWar/08/05.htm - have a look ant the paints break down in the end, which provides you not only with military codes for the paints, but also with the industrial "articules".

And to strengthen the point on the real example Here is http://www.dishmodels.ru/wshow.htm?p=416 the article on the paints found on the real a/c of various series retrieved from Zapolyarye. Note the "all green" upper surfaces on the 0br 1943 Shturmovik. The main topic of the text on the real internal surfaces painting practices also witnesses massive deviations. There is a note on brown-green DB-3 camo as well...

Vaklamov-Orlov have performed a great and, I agree with you, a rather definitive research on the VVS colours, based on real recommendations, instructions and experiences (and experiments), however, they never state anywhere, that all of these were implemented in their entirety, or at all. Using their work, we can only outline some generalities and make educated guesses as to what the certain camouflages were, but this cannot exclude the other possibilities also noticed and documented.

The deviations in the paintings of, for example MiG-3s, which had all the chances to adhere more to the instructions and was not produced at that many different factories, are a good illustration to my point.

[phat trev]

Thanks everyone for thier input, Well I have found a Hi Tech version of the SMER Il2 and it really is a sweet model.

The moulding is very good as are the panel details and having the etch is a real bonus.

All I am missing in the kit are the decals and canopy as these are missing out the box!!! I am very interested in installing a rear gunner seat in the back butt need photos of the mod?

[John Thompson]

Thanks everyone for thier input, Well I have found a Hi Tech version of the SMER Il2 and it really is a sweet model.

The moulding is very good as are the panel details and having the etch is a real bonus.

All I am missing in the kit are the decals and canopy as these are missing out the box!!! I am very interested in installing a rear gunner seat in the back butt need photos of the mod?

A few years ago, a Czech (?) company called WM Models produced a 1/72 conversion set to allow a single-seat Il-2 kit to be modified to represent any of several field-converted two-seaters. This included gun, decals, canopy, etc. Since you're doing exactly that and need a canopy and decals, if you can somehow track down one of these sets, you'll be in business! It's a long shot, but might be worth a try.

John

[phat trev]

A few years ago, a Czech (?) company called WM Models produced a 1/72 conversion set to allow a single-seat Il-2 kit to be modified to represent any of several field-converted two-seaters. This included gun, decals, canopy, etc. Since you're doing exactly that and need a canopy and decals, if you can somehow track down one of these sets, you'll be in business! It's a long shot, but might be worth a try.

John

nice one! i will have a shop around.

[John Thompson]

nice one! i will have a shop around.

My mistake - it's WV Models, not WM. Good luck!

John

Me again - I believe WV went out of business and HR Models started producing at least part of the WV set, which was quite comprehensive and provided options for at least 3 aircraft, maybe more. Here's the reduced version available from HR through Hannants:

http://www.hannants.co.uk/product/HRMC7222

Here it is at Modelimex, too:

http://www.modelimex.com/1-72-il-2-convers...set-with-decals

If all else fails and you can't find the original, you at least have this option to fall back on, and it's in stock! Now you just need a canopy - Pavla and Falcon (as part of a set of WWII Russian canopies) are options; I'd post some links, but at the moment Hannants' web site is wickedly slow, and I can't do a search!

Edited November 9, 2011 by John Thompson

[BallsBuster]

Thanks everyone for thier input, Well I have found a Hi Tech version of the SMER Il2 and it really is a sweet model.

The moulding is very good as are the panel details and having the etch is a real bonus.

All I am missing in the kit are the decals and canopy as these are missing out the box!!! I am very interested in installing a rear gunner seat in the back butt need photos of the mod?

There is a resin set by Neomega (although it was designed for the TOKO kit) which you can use for this conversion. If you go to Telford you can probably get one there as I saw Neomega as one of the exhibitors. Also, for the clear parts - there is a Czech company (its names escapes me) that makes the replacement vacu canopy for SMER Il-2.

[Redboost]

Name of that company is Rob Taurus:

Click

[John Thompson]

Lots of good possibilities! I was assuming a field-converted two-seater was what you're after, but maybe you like the Smer kit so well that you plan to go all the way and make a factory-built one, so the Neomega cockpit and Rob Taurus or other vacuformed canopy will certainly come in handy. There are also some decal sheets that could be useful, especially this one from Authentic, devoted to two-seaters:

http://www.olimpmodelsgroup.com/olimp.files/Cover_Il2.jpg

http://hobbyterra.com/images/decals/ad7214.jpg

I don't think you're too concerned about minute accuracy in this model, and that's fine - enjoy yourself! Just be aware that (without going into details of construction, wood versus metal) converting the Smer Il-2 to a production two-seater will give you what's commonly known as an Il-2m, not the later Il-2m3, which had more sweepback to the wings (sometimes called the "arrow" wing). This change was made to compensate for the rearward centre-of-gravity shift that resulted from the addition of the gunner, his weapon, and its ammunition. The Authentic decal sheet instructions don't make it 100% obvious which of the 19 aircraft covered are Il-2m or Il-2m3. They're identified as "Il-2 two seater" (about 10 options, probably, without researching further, Il-2m's) and "Il-2 arrow" or "Il-2 type 3" (total of about 9 options, probably Il-2m3's). But if you decide to go with the Authentic decal sheet and want advice on any of these, there are lots of people who will be glad to help with more definite identification. Other than that, press on!

(Now you've got me wanting to drop everything and start working on a Smer Il-2... )

John

[phat trev]

Lots of good possibilities! I was assuming a field-converted two-seater was what you're after, but maybe you like the Smer kit so well that you plan to go all the way and make a factory-built one, so the Neomega cockpit and Rob Taurus or other vacuformed canopy will certainly come in handy. There are also some decal sheets that could be useful, especially this one from Authentic, devoted to two-seaters:

http://www.olimpmodelsgroup.com/olimp.files/Cover_Il2.jpg

http://hobbyterra.com/images/decals/ad7214.jpg

I don't think you're too concerned about minute accuracy in this model, and that's fine - enjoy yourself! Just be aware that (without going into details of construction, wood versus metal) converting the Smer Il-2 to a production two-seater will give you what's commonly known as an Il-2m, not the later Il-2m3, which had more sweepback to the wings (sometimes called the "arrow" wing). This change was made to compensate for the rearward centre-of-gravity shift that resulted from the addition of the gunner, his weapon, and its ammunition. The Authentic decal sheet instructions don't make it 100% obvious which of the 19 aircraft covered are Il-2m or Il-2m3. They're identified as "Il-2 two seater" (about 10 options, probably, without researching further, Il-2m's) and "Il-2 arrow" or "Il-2 type 3" (total of about 9 options, probably Il-2m3's). But if you decide to go with the Authentic decal sheet and want advice on any of these, there are lots of people who will be glad to help with more definite identification. Other than that, press on!

(Now you've got me wanting to drop everything and start working on a Smer Il-2... )

John

Nice one John, that czech canopy for the SMER Il2 looks ideal as do the resin parts from hannants.

I will not be looking to make a late two seater mainly because the SMER is early (so why change it) and like all my builds, I think the early straight winged versions 'look better!'

thanks for the help everyone! time to cut a hole in the bak of my Il2 then...

[Learstang]

Wow! How did I miss this thread? I need to start checking the Britmodeller threads more often. I've done a little research on the IL-2, including buying all the models that are out there (including the KP kit). Trev, I've built two of the Smer kits and found them to be good kits, with good detail, and unlike what some have reported, I didn't find the wing/fuselage join to be very difficult. I've also built the Academy kit (basically a shrunken-down version of the 1/48th scale Accurate Miniatures IL-2), and although a very nice kit, I like the Smer kit better as it represents the wooden fuselaged version, whereas the Academy kit represents the rare metal fuselaged version. From the various photographs I've examined of the single-seater (hundreds), it would seem that the metal-winged, wooden rear fuselage single-seater version was very common. Sorry to be so late to this party, but I just now found this thread.

Best Regards,

Jason

[Massimo Tessitori]

Of course, I read them myself (believe me, my Russian is way better than my English), and that is why I do state what I say. BTW the "non-existant" paint number quoted above is taken from Vaklamov's article.

In my opinion, and direct personal experience, it is not very wise to be dogmatic about anything relating to the Soviet armed forces (and especially during the WW2). The system existed in the form of "recommendations", which were constantly deviated from, both on production and front line unit level. These deviations in camouflage were also encouraged in the field manuals and orders for unit commanders prompting them to do anything to enhance camouflage. Closer to the end of the war this practice resulted in the wild array of picturesque paintings on the aircraft (despite the potential harm they could make being good targeting prompts).

Returning to the IL-2 issue - here is the article on the painting practices of Il-2s (extract from a book ) - http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AirWar/08/05.htm - have a look ant the paints break down in the end, which provides you not only with military codes for the paints, but also with the industrial "articules".

And to strengthen the point on the real example Here is http://www.dishmodels.ru/wshow.htm?p=416 the article on the paints found on the real a/c of various series retrieved from Zapolyarye. Note the "all green" upper surfaces on the 0br 1943 Shturmovik. The main topic of the text on the real internal surfaces painting practices also witnesses massive deviations. There is a note on brown-green DB-3 camo as well...

Vaklamov-Orlov have performed a great and, I agree with you, a rather definitive research on the VVS colours, based on real recommendations, instructions and experiences (and experiments), however, they never state anywhere, that all of these were implemented in their entirety, or at all. Using their work, we can only outline some generalities and make educated guesses as to what the certain camouflages were, but this cannot exclude the other possibilities also noticed and documented.

The deviations in the paintings of, for example MiG-3s, which had all the chances to adhere more to the instructions and was not produced at that many different factories, are a good illustration to my point.

Hi Ballsbuster,

I'm interested in what you wrote on the camouflages of Il-2s and other planes. I'm making a work of collecting and classifying photos of Soviet planes to detect the most utilized camouflage patterns, and I've made this on Il-2s too at http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il-2.htm. My impression, from photos, is that there are few Il-2s, forthemost of 1941, following non-standard schemes. The most photos suggest that the planes were painted with standard schemes, that sometimes make recognizable the factory that built it. Three-shades camos of 1943-45 respect approximately the NKAP patterns, so they don't suggest this variety of camouflages. I haven't seen photos of Il-2s suggesting all-green Il-2s after the war outbreak, even if they are described by veterans.

Other types of planes leave more doubts: Pe-2, Tu-2 and other types leave many doubts on their painting.

If you can find photos supporting the use of non-standard camos and uniforml green use in 1942-45, I'll be very interested.

Regards

Massimo

[Kari Lumppio]

...

I haven't seen photos of Il-2s suggesting all-green Il-2s after the war outbreak, even if they are described by veterans.

...

Hello!

I'm not BallsBuster but for all-green Il-2 candidates look 668 ShAP planes. Not many photos of them. In Soviet-era 7 VA history book is one and there was a homesite for the polk too, now disappeared. Another one could be 828 ShAP. They had 2-seat metal straight wingers from Zavod 18. One of them (or remains) are now at Samara on pole. With overall green topsides. It may or may not be accurate.

Both 668 and 828 operated at 7 VA if that means anything. They got Il-2 in 1943 and flew very few missions until 1944 so they had long-serving machines.

Cheers,

Kari

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hello!

I'm not BallsBuster but for all-green Il-2 candidates look 668 ShAP planes. Not many photos of them. In Soviet-era 7 VA history book is one and there was a homesite for the polk too, now disappeared. Another one could be 828 ShAP. They had 2-seat metal straight wingers from Zavod 18. One of them (or remains) are now at Samara on pole. With overall green topsides. It may or may not be accurate.

Both 668 and 828 operated at 7 VA if that means anything. They got Il-2 in 1943 and flew very few missions until 1944 so they had long-serving machines.

Cheers,

Kari

Hi Kari,

thank you for the information. Where can I find wartime photos of them on books, please?

Regards

Massimo

[BallsBuster]

Hi Ballsbuster,

I'm interested in what you wrote on the camouflages of Il-2s and other planes. I'm making a work of collecting and classifying photos of Soviet planes to detect the most utilized camouflage patterns, and I've made this on Il-2s too at http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/il-2/il-2.htm. My impression, from photos, is that there are few Il-2s, forthemost of 1941, following non-standard schemes. The most photos suggest that the planes were painted with standard schemes, that sometimes make recognizable the factory that built it. Three-shades camos of 1943-45 respect approximately the NKAP patterns, so they don't suggest this variety of camouflages. I haven't seen photos of Il-2s suggesting all-green Il-2s after the war outbreak, even if they are described by veterans.

Other types of planes leave more doubts: Pe-2, Tu-2 and other types leave many doubts on their painting.

If you can find photos supporting the use of non-standard camos and uniforml green use in 1942-45, I'll be very interested.

Regards

Massimo

Hi Massimo,

Sorry, I am just an amateur and approach subjects I built on "as needed basis". However I did build a few Il-2s and looked through a variety of sources.

I believe one needs to be very careful in approach to the VVS "patterns" overall as they were not really such. What I am trying to say, there were no ready made stencils or diligently followed instructions on how paint camos on VVS aircraft during the war at the factory level. There were "Rukovodstvo" of sorts on camo schemes, but you need to keep in mind that it has two meanings :"instructions/manual" and "reccomendations" - in Russian beuracratic speak the second meaning is prevalent. So by default, you would be hard pressed to find a system here. Also on the field level, any "rukovodstvo" would be superseded by various Prikaz (which is a military order) to make the a/c as hard to spot as possible. The on ground camo discipline was very strictly imposed and promoted and a lot of ground crews would re-paint the machines to suit their TOP (when they had time and means). You could have noticed that working on your excellent book on MiG-3. As I was trying to mention above. (please, do not let me go into the colors - as this area is even more vague).

Returnign to your point - "The most photos suggest that the planes were painted with standard schemes, that sometimes make recognizable the factory that built it." - probably you could also distinguish the similar patterns between the production shifts of the same factory (carried on through a/c of various batches produced by the same factory), however, you should also take into account the factor of paint availability, and the whole array of other factors, most important of which would be the volume of output.

I posted this link above - http://www.dishmodels.ru/wshow.htm?p=416 - the text there is extremely interesting with regards of the painting of Il-2 of various years (especially interior) and describes an all green late model Il-2 (two seater) which was painted all-green top not only once, but twice. Here's the piece of text - Ил-2М3. "Деревянные консоли, хвост, обтекатели рельсов фонаря позднего типа. Самолет собран весь на заклепках "впотай", в отличии от первых двух Илов. Окрашен средне-зеленой краской, 2 слоя, (был ремонт?) Верхний-намного светлее изначального. Итак, тут самое интересное! Внутри самолет тоже почти неокрашен, те части, которые видны после сборки-задуты (местами кистевая покраска) темно-зеленым цветом. Кистью по швам все промазано оранжевой краской. так же окрашены фрагменты Ил-2 из финского музея, тот же период и близкий (в мировом масштабе) регион. Закрылки, створки шасси окрашены в голубой, цвет нижних поверхностей. Сами ниши и бомболюки-темно-зеленые. Серебристая фанера в бомболюках снова на месте!" Let me know if you need a translation but note the use of "dark green" and orange colors on the internal surfaces - what regulation does it correspond to? BTW there are numerous samples photographic evidences of all green two-seaters in 1944-45 - my suspicion that the Il-2 that crashed near Belgrade was all green, here's another example:

URL=http://s906.photobucket.com/albums/ac267/BallsBuster/?action=view&current=ll-2allgreen2.jpg][/url]

[Massimo Tessitori]

Hi Massimo,

Sorry, I am just an amateur and approach subjects I built on "as needed basis". However I did build a few Il-2s and looked through a variety of sources.

I believe one needs to be very careful in approach to the VVS "patterns" overall as they were not really such. What I am trying to say, there were no ready made stencils or diligently followed instructions on how paint camos on VVS aircraft during the war at the factory level. There were "Rukovodstvo" of sorts on camo schemes, but you need to keep in mind that it has two meanings :"instructions/manual" and "reccomendations" - in Russian beuracratic speak the second meaning is prevalent. So by default, you would be hard pressed to find a system here. Also on the field level, any "rukovodstvo" would be superseded by various Prikaz (which is a military order) to make the a/c as hard to spot as possible. The on ground camo discipline was very strictly imposed and promoted and a lot of ground crews would re-paint the machines to suit their TOP (when they had time and means). You could have noticed that working on your excellent book on MiG-3. As I was trying to mention above. (please, do not let me go into the colors - as this area is even more vague).

Returnign to your point - "The most photos suggest that the planes were painted with standard schemes, that sometimes make recognizable the factory that built it." - probably you could also distinguish the similar patterns between the production shifts of the same factory (carried on through a/c of various batches produced by the same factory), however, you should also take into account the factor of paint availability, and the whole array of other factors, most important of which would be the volume of output.

I posted this link above - http://www.dishmodels.ru/wshow.htm?p=416 - the text there is extremely interesting with regards of the painting of Il-2 of various years (especially interior) and describes an all green late model Il-2 (two seater) which was painted all-green top not only once, but twice. Here's the piece of text - Ил-2М3. "Деревянные консоли, хвост, обтекатели рельсов фонаря позднего типа. Самолет собран весь на заклепках "впотай", в отличии от первых двух Илов. Окрашен средне-зеленой краской, 2 слоя, (был ремонт?) Верхний-намного светлее изначального. Итак, тут самое интересное! Внутри самолет тоже почти неокрашен, те части, которые видны после сборки-задуты (местами кистевая покраска) темно-зеленым цветом. Кистью по швам все промазано оранжевой краской. так же окрашены фрагменты Ил-2 из финского музея, тот же период и близкий (в мировом масштабе) регион. Закрылки, створки шасси окрашены в голубой, цвет нижних поверхностей. Сами ниши и бомболюки-темно-зеленые. Серебристая фанера в бомболюках снова на месте!" Let me know if you need a translation but note the use of "dark green" and orange colors on the internal surfaces - what regulation does it correspond to? BTW there are numerous samples photographic evidences of all green two-seaters in 1944-45 - my suspicion that the Il-2 that crashed near Belgrade was all green, here's another example:

URL=http://s906.photobucket.com/albums/ac267/BallsBuster/?action=view&current=ll-2allgreen2.jpg][/url]

Hi Ballsbuster,

thank you for the reply and for the image.

To tell the truth, the plane of the photo looks to have two light parts, one on the aileron, the other one at mid of its nose, overposed to the exhausts, that are fairly compatible with the variant 1 of the schemes of 1943.

I don't see the difference between the green and dark grey bands, but I think that these colors are difficult to be distinguished on a black and white photo The dark grey is thought to have been darker when new, but it seems that it fades more quickly than the green.

So, my idea is that this one was camouflaged in standard way.

Unfortunately, this type of camouflage is difficult to detect on many planes because of the similarity of grey and green, so one has to check the light brown areas that are more visible.

Please, could you translate the comments in Russian relative to the uniform green Il-2 and to the use of brown on the Il-4?

Regards

Massimo

[BallsBuster]

My impression, from photos, is that there are few Il-2s, forthemost of 1941, following non-standard schemes. The most photos suggest that the planes were painted with standard schemes, that sometimes make recognizable the factory that built it.

If you can find photos supporting the use of non-standard camos and uniforml green use in 1942-45, I'll be very interested.

Regards

Massimo

Sorry Massimo, I got a bit carried away and did not mean to ignore your point on 1941 Il-2s. Well, here, in my view, the situation is as follows - the standard colors for Il-2s was green over azure blue... I believe there are photos of pre-war Il-2s confirming it. But on 19-06-1941 - -the order came out to introduce disruptive camo patterns - here's the text of it - http://www.alexanderyakovlev.org/fond/issues-doc/1011994 note the date of completion - 20-july-1941. The famous Zhikharev instruction was signed into print only after the beginning of the war on the 23rd of july (it also prescribed the new positions of red stars, which you probably know was never really followed).

It is hard to say now how many regiments and how quickly the factories would react to this order, but it is fair to assume that a large number of Il-2s in the first couple of months of war would be all green tops.

The patterns of those that were repainted would be widely varied and would bare resemblance within their respective units.

Sorry, I just saw your other reply, surely I will translate it - give me a couple of days -should I post it here?

Regarding the photo-- here we come again to the attempts to tell what would be the colors on black and white photos... to me that plane looks uniform green, one would expect a bit more contract between the fields and more consistency inside them.. those darker patches look like a shadows from a tree....however, it is just a guess.

Edited December 2, 2011 by BallsBuster

[John Thompson]

Thank you for all that, BB - it's certainly becoming a more complicated subject than I believed it was a few posts ago! Massimo deserves a lot of credit for his hard work trying to find some system or pattern among all these variables.

John