K5054

[Jennings Heilig]

I'll appologise first off because I've a couple of colour questions regarding K5054 and no doubt they've been asked many times. These relate to time period before first flight.

1) Cockpit interior is Eau de Nil and not interior grey/green. Correct?

2) External colour call out gives it as Zinc Chromate Green. Can't see this being correct as it's a US colour. Is it a case of mix a similar colour and let somebody prove it wrong?

First, US aircraft don't have colours, they have colors (kidding... I'm a huge Anglophile)

Second, seriously, zinc chromate is not *a* color. It's a chemical chemical compound that could be any of a wide range of colors

PS: Has anyone figured out this new quoting system? I can't seem to get it to work properly about 90% of the time

Edited March 1, 2013 by Jennings Heilig

[Nick Millman]

I'll appologise first off because I've a couple of colour questions regarding K5054 and no doubt they've been asked many times. These relate to time period before first flight.

1) Cockpit interior is Eau de Nil and not interior grey/green. Correct?

2) External colour call out gives it as Zinc Chromate Green. Can't see this being correct as it's a US colour. Is it a case of mix a similar colour and let somebody prove it wrong?

First, US aircraft don't have colours, they have colors (kidding... I'm a huge Anglophile)

Second, seriously, zinc chromate is not *a* color. It's a chemical chemical compound that could be any of a wide range of colors

PS: Has anyone figured out this new quoting system? I can't seem to get it to work properly about 90% of the time

You're not entirely correct I'm afraid. Zinc chromate is from a family of inorganic synthetic pigments known collectively and generally as zinc yellow. It varies in shade or tint rather than hue. It might well be used in proprietary compound protective coatings called "zinc chromate" which have been tinted with other pigments but in its base form it has its own CI number and identities as "Pigment Yellow" 36 (77955) and 36:1 (77956). There is more than one chemical formula for it, depending on how it has been made. 36 is documented as bright greenish yellow and 36:1 as dull reddish yellow.

Much confusion has arisen from the US practice of referring to all tinted zinc chromate coatings as "Zinc Chromate" and the presumption that it was unique to the US services. The tinting gave rise to designations of "Zinc Chromate Yellow" and "Zinc Chromate Green" but the basic pigment was, and is, considered to be yellow in colour.

Nick

[Edgar]

1) Cockpit interior is Eau de Nil and not interior grey/green. Correct?

Actually unknown, but unlikely; going by photos (yes, I know) the cockpit of the S6B matches the green I saw in an early Mk.I; this begs the question, in between those two, would Supermarine have switched to a different colour, just for a prototype?

2) External colour call out gives it as Zinc Chromate Green. Can't see this being correct as it's a US colour. Is it a case of mix a similar colour and let somebody prove it wrong?

A relative of an eyewitness said it was a "yucky green." The spec called for an anodised finish, and how much difference there might be, between an anodised green, and a chromate green, is a question to which I'd guess only Nick can give an answer.

Edgar

[ludwig113]

here is my interpritation of K5054, its not perfect and i'm sure someone will tell me the colour is wrong etc but its a similar colour to the replica at tangmere.

[Don McIntyre]

I went with Xtracolour RLM-76 for my Tamiya/Paragon conversion:

More pics including pics of the conversion bits and some in-progress shots.

http://s20.beta.photobucket.com/user/DDonSS3/library/Built%20Models/Spitfire%20Prototype?start=all

[Andrew Jones]

Mine was made from the Airfix 1/48 Mk I and finished in Ford Riviera Blue courtesy of Halfords.

Andrew

[Rick Brown]

Sorry to wake this thread up chaps, but was there any conclusion to the age old question of the external colour when it was "blue"?

I've just tried Tamiya XF23 recommended somewhere but this is way too light and too green for my liking.

I'm going with the blue theory cause it looks nice!

So, a suggestion for the blue please in acrylic, I do like Xtracrylix at the moment. I don't particularly want to buy a can of car paint and decant. Model colours are best for me.

Tia,

Rick.

[Nick Millman]

The paint colour was supposedly called "French Grey" and FWIW Ian Huntley matched the French Grey in a pre-war Cellon catalogue to Methuen 23 B 3 which is a very pale blue-grey (Methuen call it "bluish grey"). That appearance is consistent with the plastron colour of the uniform of the 21st Lancers which was also specified as being "French Grey" but I have encountered different pre-war commercial pigment formulae for it. The most common is a combination of zinc white, prussian blue and vermilion but there are versions where black is substituted for the blue. The classic pigment formula for French Grey going back to the 18th Century always required a little red in it.

It is also included in British Standard colours (BS381C) of 1931 as colour No. 30 which I have not been able to examine but reproductions of which look decidedly "warm", more like Sky.

The best comparison to the Methuen colour that I can get using FS 595b is about midway between *5226 and *5622 but not quite so blue. This thread might assist, although I think the final colour chosen is still a little too dark, especially on such a small scale model:-

http://americanscalemodel.freeforums.org/andrew-s-spitfire-prototype-1936-t126.html

Nick

[Black Knight]

d

Edited November 8, 2013 by Black Knight

[Troy Smith]

Just to cross reference this, it seems Rolls Royce blue was considered possible.

see this thread http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/59535-the-spitfire-prototype-definitive-thread/page-2

Have a look in Work in progress under the Rolls Royce Mk 14. That is RR blue and it was after all in their house colours. I had forgotten that it was in those colours and I used to see it regularly over our house when I was a school boy not far from Hucknall.

John

HI John

as in G-ALGT?

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234944307-spitfire-xiv-rm689-g-algt/

Miggers posted these

Just for you gents edification:

Thanks to Keith Hamshere.

I've got her in 1/72nd done from Airfix's XIX/IX conversion about 60% done to be

finished in this rather fetching scheme.

Looks like low sun angle, so not ideal for colour.

this is the thread John mentions I think

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234922144-spitfire-mk-xiv-g-algt-148-conversion-first-coat-of-blue/

another colour pic from above thread

hope of use

cheers

T

[Rick Brown]

Thanks chaps, just ordered some Xtracrylics RLM 76. I'll give that a blast.

Rick.

[Don McIntyre]

I used the Xtracolour enamel RLM-76 as seen above and to me it looks good.

Make sure you post pics, Rick.

[Rick Brown]

I used the Xtracolour enamel RLM-76 as seen above and to me it looks good.

Make sure you post pics, Rick.

Will do Don.

Had a minor disaster with the primer so the builds taking longer than expected, but hope to get back on track soon.

Unless I get side tracked by something from Telford........................

Rick.

[Spitfire31]

Have you heard?

Alley Cat is releasing 5054 in 1:48, resin, different config alternatives included, £40.

http://www.a2zeemodels.co.uk/supermarine-spitfire-prototype-6263-p.asp

Xmas is early this year!

Kind regards,

Joachim

PS Of course I've already ordered my kit! :-D

[woody37]

Had a quick look at it yesterday at Telford, hmmmm...... me too !

[Mike]

I've been fondling it fondly (is that possible?) since I got it back from Telford last night. It's got to the stage where it's off its casting blocks and about to get a bath to remove all the mould release before I begin construction. I'm doing the first flight scheme where the cowling appears to be highly polished while the fuselage et al is darker, and oft described by Edgar as a Yukky Green. Ali and I were chatting yesterday about the colour, and he suggested a metallic with a hint of green mixed in, so I'm going to experiment with Alclads and some of their clear green, with perhaps some clear yellow mixed in if it looks better. Wish me luck, and keep your eyes peeled for the review tomorrow with build article following along soon after

[Rick Brown]

T'was the highlight of the show for me. I'll start saving for next year.

You doing a WIP Mike?

Nearly done my 1/72 K5054, couple more coats of RLM76 and decals for the canopy framing.

Rick.

[Nick Millman]

The problem is that apart from a description of its colour I don't think the pre-painted finish has been confirmed as to whether it was zinc chromate primer (opaque), chromated (semi-opaque) or anodised (translucent) all of which could have looked "yukky green" to an observer.

There is a long discussion here which makes an interesting but ultimately inconclusive read:-

http://www.thefedoralounge.com/archive/index.php/t-33450.html

Nick

[RHB785]

I know that some people may feel this is beyond the scope of this discussion but I have an old (1973) Australian Viscount caravan. These were made from an aluminium frame clad with aluminium sheet, mine being the log cabin profile used at that time. Both the inside and outside of the sheet is anodised with the inside being left unpainted. For those who would be interested I could take some photos and post them here when I work out how to. Would I have to first upload them to say photobucket and then post them here? Or can I just upload them to my computer and hen post them to the forum?

Cheers,

Ross.

[RHB785]

Hmm.Disregard my question about the photobucket thingie. I've just read the FAQ.

Cheers,

Ross.

[Mike]

You doing a WIP Mike?

It's a long running show here if you've not seen it already.

[Rick Brown]

It's a long running show here if you've not seen it already.

Already drooled over it!

Stunning, seen, want, must have. Groan, wife seen, don't want, can't have.

Rick.

[Edgar]

Before you go too far along this route of finding exotic finishes that might have adorned K5054, the specification for the Type 224 specified that all aluminium and aluminium alloys were to be "anodically treated," and it was not altered for the Type 300.

A wartime drawing 3000 sheet 28, which post-dates the (1942) introduction of the synthetic paint DTD517, states that "all aluminium alloy parts other than those constructed of alclad to be anodised after working." Those last two words could explain why the cowlings on K5054 appear to have been unpainted; if the job was a rush (and the cowlings were very much a jigsaw pattern of parts,) there might not have been time (or the inclination, if new ones were to be made) to anodise them.

Post-war, with the then required glossy finish, aluminium could be treated with Alocrom DTD900/4091 or chrome sulphuric pickle DTD915, BUT there is no mention of those finishes during 1939-45.

Somewhere (I believe I saw it in the now-closed gallery at Hendon) there's a painting of K5054, taking off on its first flight; the artist has shown it as predominately green, and he is/was Mitchell's nephew, who, at that time, would have had access to Gordon Mitchell (who saw K5054 unpainted) and Jeffrey Quill (who flew it,) so, if he'd got it wrong, they would (surely?) have put him straight.

Edgar