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1/48 Fonderie Miniatures Halifax B MKIII


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As an aside, I notice from the photograph, that the flaps are in the lowered positioned, is this normal for the Halifax?

Tony

AFAIK from the pics I have seen, no. I looked recerntly as the FM kit comes with provision for dropped flaps.

Flaps dropped on the ground are unusual on British aircraft, but are favoured by modellers.... how Spitfires and Hurricane models have dropped flaps, and how many in photos? I'm not a Halifax expert. Try a google image search and see what you find.

Chris,

one thing I have come to realise from time on here from post from folks who know more, and then looking at too many pics, is that unlike say USAF font, there is not the same thing in the RAF, and the style and size/width of the RAF squadron codes varied between squadrons, [occasionally IN squadrons] in particular in the Battle of Britain.

There were specification for code letters but not stencils and they did vary.

The Xtradecal codes are a pretty good average, but you'll note they have different styles of certain letters.

Bomber codes are supposed to be 48", and I think 30" width is 'standard' but these look like 48" high, but narrower, by eye probably 18" or 20" wide. [Note that 30" would have fitted comfortably...]

If you are going to strip off the codes, then you can make them any width you want. If you have a graphics program [my experience is with coreldraw] you might be able use the photo as a basis, even if you just roughly square them up, and then measure the size on the kit fuselage compared, and then see if any font you have is a close match.

Or scan the decal sheet and adjust, or just cut the decal in half and apply in two bits to a reduced width.... finally there is a chap on BM who makes custom masks.

......looking really hard at the pic, the letters look closer in tone to the yellow outer ring that to the red centre of the roundel, so not having an exact paint match to the roundels would not be a problem.

Hope this helps and not hinders...

T

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Ian,

I'll send the email very shortly - thank you so much for your offer of help on this - it is really greatly appreciated!

In the meantime, would anybody know how to mix up the best colour for Red RAF Squadron Codes out of Tamiya paint? Or if there is any other brand that would get close to it?

Very many thanks,

Chris

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Troy

I seem to have found a few photos with the aircraft shut down where the flaps appear to be lowered - hence why I've put them in the down position in this build. What I don't know though is how the flap system operated on the Halifax and whether it was hydraulically or electrically operated. Numerous photos have shown them to be in the lowered position with the power off. And yet numerous photos have also shown them to be in the up position with the power off. I'm wondering if it was a maintainance thing?

Incidently... this photo shows a Ball turret on the Halifax curiously. Now, in another thread, they talked about an observers position being installed aft of the bomb bay, and I thought that I'd read about a gunner being positioned there - but I assumed that his role had been pretty much limited to observation and that he was unarmed. Obviously with this position, H2S couldn't be fitted to the aircraft - so therefore, not every aircraft would have been fitted with this mount. However, just out of passing interest, I do wonder how many Halifaxes were fitted with this position:

21edlxv.jpg

Edited by Chris Jephcott
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Troy

I seem to have found a few photos with the aircraft shut down where the flaps appear to be lowered - hence why I've put them in the down position in this build. What I don't know though is how the flap system operated on the Halifax and whether it was hydraulically or electrically operated. Numerous photos have shown them to be in the lowered position with the power off. And yet numerous photos have also shown them to be in the up position with the power off. I'm wondering if it was a maintainance thing?

I would guess it was a maintenance thing. I'm sure there is someone who will know more here than me though.

Incidently... this photo shows a Ball turret on the Halifax curiously. Now, in another thread, they talked about an observers position being installed aft of the bomb bay, and I thought that I'd read about a gunner being positioned there - but I assumed that his role had been pretty much limited to observation and that he was unarmed. Obviously with this position, H2S couldn't be fitted to the aircraft - so therefore, not every aircraft would have been fitted with this mount. However, just out of passing interest, I do wonder how many Halifaxes were fitted with this position:

The under fuselage turret was fitted a lot in one of the Yorkshire Halifax groups, I think No.6 group.

As i type I had another search, it's a 'ventral fairing containing an 0.50 in (12.7 mm) gun in Preston-Green mount'...hence only 1 big gun in the pic you posted!

It was brought back in as a defence against Schrage Musik.

H2S while useful for navigation also if left on sent out 'look I'm here' emissions, picked up by Nightfighters on 'Naxos' [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naxos_radar_detector]

Right now I can't remember where I read this though? Either in the Nuremburg raid or in "Second to None". The chap who wrote it a Halifax fan, and points out the Halifax actually fulfilled the specification, while the Lanc was a specialist bomb carrier. Worth a read.

and carrying on vagueness....a tamiya mix for RAF dark red IIRC was 75% red and 25% black, never tried it, and this is from memory, I think the mixes are on another computer...that's a bit vague....

I'd be more inclined to start with flat red XF-7 and add XF-64 red-brown until you get that dull red colour. You might need a spot of yellow to give it the dull orange red tone. Or, why trust my failing memory and start a thread in WW2....

HTH

T

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Well there's been what I'd like to call "an admin day" on this build today... but thanks to the help of two people in particular, things are progressing again in the right direction.

So huge thanks go to:

Ian at Adastramasks for helping me with the situation on the decals. I will be now painting the Squadron codes and Identification numbers onto the aircraft, which is a lot easier than relying on unreliable Xtradecals which seem to have haunted me. Also, the Codes are being scaled down to 24 inches across from 30, which should give a much more accurate representation of size. So a big, huge, thanks go to Ian for his help and support.

Bill (Perdu) has relooked at the "Canada" slogan in light of the new picture becoming available, and has done some work on the existing decal template to smoothen the edges around the decal. The result of this is that I'll be stripping the old slogan off and replacing it with the new one underneath, which will hopefully elimate the need for me to touch up the edges with my dodgy, shaking hands. So another huge thanks to you too, Bill.

All the help and advice has been really greatly appreciated though and hopefully, we have got another hurdle out of the way with on this. Fingers crossed that it will all be plain sailing from now on it.

Tomorrow, Standby depending, I'll be stripping the decals to be replaced with microsol and working on the turrets with any luck at all. I'll try and update this thread then.

Paul: That's a smashing looking build. It's a shame that those decals are out of production though. They would have been perfect for this job!!!

Don: There's a lot going on in that photo - it's just incredibly atmospheric. The bit that gets me is that the airfield is really hazy and yet there are still frantic amounts of work being undertaken either in preparation or as a wind down from an operation.

Troy: I've stumbled across a mix for the red combining about 75% Flat Red and 25% Red Brown. It should give a roughly accurate representation of the colours involved. Or I can tweak that mix around as required. As shown (and pointed out!) in the photo, the letters and the roundel were not the same shade of red - so I'm not overly fussed about getting this exactly correct - the nature of the war meant that any markings would have been applied hastily and without too much forethought. It's the same argument that says "What is the real interior green?" when the answer is "Depends which light you look at it under".

Very interesting about the H2S generating a return signal on the Naxos radar though. So in reality, it actually caused as many problems as it solved. I'm still amazed that not more RAF aircraft employed a mounting such as this against Schragemusik - although obviously a lot would have come down to ground clearance? Interesting that it was so widely used in 6 group though.

I'd wager the Halifax flaps were electronically operated too. I don't know when the first documented use of Hydraulic flaps actually was!!

Cheers

Chris

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So Chris, shall I print the new one then?

Same size I suppose...

So, have you a favourite? #2 or #3?

This is cruel really

While Chris suffers I am enjoying myself trying out new technology for someone without much responsibility for planning and application :)

But it is fun being on a learning curve

Edited by perdu
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Very interesting about the H2S generating a return signal on the Naxos radar though. So in reality, it actually caused as many problems as it solved. I'm still amazed that not more RAF aircraft employed a mounting such as this against Schragemusik - although obviously a lot would have come down to ground clearance? Interesting that it was so widely used in 6 group though.

Hi Chris

here's a link to brief article on the TACTICS & TECHNOLOGY OF THE NIGHT AIR WAR WWII

http://www.germanmilitaryhistory.com/blog/...t-air-war-wwii/

The whole ECM war is pretty complex, there is controversy about H2S as it was picked up when bombers switched on their sets over England, and I think Naxos was specifically to home on the emissions.

Another problem was their was a belief that IFF sets could confuse radar controlled searchlights, but it was not discouraged by the RAF as it was though no harm came from it...and later detectors were used to track this. the German's called these 'Flames'

The big problem with Schrage Musik for Bomber Command was it's lethality, basically, you got hit with this, you were shot down.

So it's use was unknown or discounted by the RAF. This is mentioned in a very good book, 'The Nuremburg Raid' by Martin Middlebrook.

Well worth picking up as it can be found cheap, and is VERY detailed about the raid.

Schrage Musik is discussed, including reports from other aircraft about cannon shells coming up through other bomber's wings, but not circulated or understood by intelligence officers. The devastating effect is discussed, by night fighter pilots and bomber crew survivors.

The impact of Schrage musik was also amplified as the equipped planes were issued to the best crews. It had to be used carefully, the article says this

fighter pilots aimed at a point between the Halifaxes' or Lancasters' wing roots, or between the two engines. A short burst was usually enough to set them on fire, and in some cases to give a few of the seven-man bomber crews time to bail out. Since downward visibility from the Halifax and Lancaster rear turrets was almost negligible most bomber crews never realized where the attack originated and could not specify how they had been shot down.

What it does not say that if you fired a load of cannon shells into the fuselage you tended to hit the bomb load and that was a dangerous for the night fighter.

In the Nuremburg book one night fighter pilot says that aiming between the engines should give the crew time to bail out, but crews often failed to realise how badly they had been hit in time.

I'm not sure if it was 6 Group, might be 4 Group, the books are elsewhere. I think later on in the war some Lancs were also fitted with ventral guns as well.

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nos...chine-guns.html

post says about 6 Group....so more searching, here are links to some more 6 group Halifax's with ventral turrets. They are commented on in photos.

http://www.6grouprcaf.com/daisy1.html

http://www.6grouprcaf.com/432QOYpic.html

http://www.6grouprcaf.com/425Halifaxes.html

http://www.6grouprcaf.com/415HalifaxIII6U-I.html

ah, here we go, http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nos...rage-musik.html, note post 5 and 11.

EDIT - From "Halifax, Second to None"

The free 0.5 inch gun in the mid-under position was mainly used by those Canadain squadrons whose aircraft did not have H2S blisters fitted. It was mounted on a Preston Green mounting and was manually operated. The covering blister was very shallow and the movement of the gun quite restricted.

Looking through more pics i see that a fair few have dropped flaps. Interesting to note.

EDIT - Bit more research, the flaps are hydraulic.

I hope this is of interest Chris, and anyone else reading..... bloomin' BM sends me off on these quests....

cheers

T

PS those codes look more like 18" or 20" wide rather than 24" though.

Edited by Troy Smith
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  • 3 weeks later...

Well then chaps...

The masks have arrived and have been painted on.

The paint and decals are finished.

The windows have been filled with Krystal Klear

The turrets have been attached.

The next photos you'll see of her are going to be when she's on the Ready For Inspection. The only thing I'm waiting on really is for the Krystal Klear to dry out now. I had a slight, tiny problem in so much that I managed to get a dollop of superglue on the "Canada" slogan when putting the antenna on - but this will hopefully be rectified this afternoon.

But in the meantime, I think it's time that this build thread is brought to a close. Thank you so much to everybody for your help and support throughout this build. There have been times when it's been frustrating, and the window was tempting for a test defenestration, but I've made it.

A special thanks goes to the following:

Perdu - For the decals and noseart.

Ian at AdAstraMasks - for providing me with the masks for the squadron codes

Honeybee - For providing me with the spare vacform canopies to cover my mistakes.

And to everybody else, for everything they've suggested and commented on along the way.

Hopefully the photos will be online by the end of tonight. In the meantime, I can now join the Mustang STGB!!!

Cheers for now,

Chris

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  • 9 years later...
44 minutes ago, Chris Jephcott said:

So... 10 years down the line...

 

Who’s ready for “take 2”??? 
 

🤣


So you spent all that money on therapy and now want to do it all again ! :blink:

 

:D

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  • Haha 1
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