Help Required from Tiger 1 Experts

[Mick Modeller]

Hi Troops,

I will shortly be building a 1/16 Tiger 1 and I'm looking for guidence on which model I could make. Ideally I would make a late model Tiger 1 summer 1944, but I don't believe that would be possible without a shed-load of scratch-building.

I can vaguely remember reading about a book that detailed to which units the various tigers were delivered/issued to, any ideas as to the name of this book or similar?

Thanks All

[Andy K]

It depends what your base kit is for the 1/16 Tiger. I seem to recall that it would be an early one with the Feiffel air cleaner tubes on the engine deck, road wheels with rubber tyres, early style commanders cupola etc etc etc. There are many differences between early, mid and late production types and too numerous to list here so you will need good reference books such as Tigers on the Eastern Front and Tigers on the Western Front by Jean Restayn, Achtung Panzer No 6 etc. This site is good too;

Linky

Hope this helps!

Edited September 17, 2011 by Andy K

[magman2]

Nice decals from Hussar 1/16 Tiger I early decals

Set includes markings for 7 different Tiger I.

Net Photo

[jacksdad]

If you are looking for a decent modelling book on the Tiger, I have one in the sale section at the moment.

It details 8 builds from the early production to the Sturmtiger. It also has some very nice colour profiles.

Steve

[Mick Modeller]

Hi All,

The project is still in very early days, While I would love to build Bobby Woll's Tiger 1 from the summer of 1944, but whilst my research is only scratching the subject the Tiger 1s used then were mid to late production models.

I had also thought of building Otto Carius's Tiger 1, but I'm not keen for doing that in much the same way that Michael Wittman's Tiger 1 is also out. The model most likely to be made will be along the lines of: PzKpfw VI 'Tiger' (early prod) 'S12' 13 s.SS Pz-Komp LAH, Autumn 1943

As to the spacific tank, I have under "factory rebuild" a Tiger II that I built almost 20 years ago with the turret number 233, so I'm leaning towards this commanders Tiger 1.

jacksdad64, sent you a PM, sorry I was too late for the other books.

[Wayne rc]

Hi Mick, I see this post is a good few months old, so are you into this build yet.... Is it the Tamiya 1/16 ?..... You probably know already that there were many gradual changes to Tiger 1's...... Calling them early mid and late is something we modellers call them, but the waffenamt didnt... If you are doing a specific Tank I may be able to help, your S13 of LAH late 43 was one of the later early models with new type sprockets and spare track hangers. At this time LAH only had a company of Tigers and these served on until early 44, then withdrawn to form the 101 abt. S13 probably was issued in Italy when LAH was refitting after Kursk/Zitadel........ When a unit was being issued a full complement of 45 Tigers they were not always the same, ie 101 abt in summer 44 Normandy had Mid types, some with the rear gun travel lock, and early steel wheel types, and final types. I have some good reference so if I can help..just ask

[Mick Modeller]

Hi Mick, I see this post is a good few months old, so are you into this build yet.... Is it the Tamiya 1/16 ?..... You probably know already that there were many gradual changes to Tiger 1's...... Calling them early mid and late is something we modellers call them, but the waffenamt didnt... If you are doing a specific Tank I may be able to help, your S13 of LAH late 43 was one of the later early models with new type sprockets and spare track hangers. At this time LAH only had a company of Tigers and these served on until early 44, then withdrawn to form the 101 abt. S13 probably was issued in Italy when LAH was refitting after Kursk/Zitadel........ When a unit was being issued a full complement of 45 Tigers they were not always the same, ie 101 abt in summer 44 Normandy had Mid types, some with the rear gun travel lock, and early steel wheel types, and final types. I have some good reference so if I can help..just ask

Hi Wayne,

The girl is the Tamiya and in very early production...... something like LRIP..... :-)

My main hold-up it is searching for an Aber 16 K01 set, can't get one at the right price.

Just shows you how your luck goes, 10 or more years ago when I was in the Innsbruck area I was shown an album of pics showing some LSSAH heavy armour including at least 1x T1 several Stug IIIs and a couple of others, in colour and factory fresh. Sadly the owner has since died, but he was in the LSSAH at the time.

The end model will have S-Mine launchers, but no smoke dischargers, in line with the pictures I have from the period, I did have the idea of modelling Bobby Woll's tank from June 44, but couldn't find any good pics, apart from being a mid-prod, with rubber wheels and zimmerit. I'll have to get back to you on exact vehicle, the last time i looked there were several possibles.

The two potential models being used as the model will be fully functional, but with as any gucci bits as I can comfortably add. So far I've added a white metal armoured cover for the final drive. Should help with the inevitable run or two into solid objects.

[Wayne rc]

When you say Bobby Woll, you mean Balthausar Woll yes ?, is that the same man... IIRC he died with Wittman in 007 on Aug 8 44, Its news to me that he commanded his own Tiger, I would like to know more.... So you have met with an LAH vet, Same here. Im glad I got to meet a few Waffen SS vets before they pass on. So far Ive met 2 LAH, 1 DR, 1 Totenkopf, 1 Florian Geyer, and 1 HJ..... I have a certificate of a Treff I attended a few years ago. I know someone who is good mates with Ernst Barkmann, and several associates also met Frau Wittman at a ceremony for her late Husband.... I was so much more in awe of these people and honoured to drink with them much more than I would be over some modern day so called celeb........ If I remember S mine launchers were carried on to some mid types, ie with late cupola and rubber tyres, and I believe the LAH Tiger komp had some of these during the Zhitomir late 43 battles along with the post Kursk 'late early types' that were with LAH during its Italian holiday, well thats what the LAH vets called it !

[Red Dragon]

You might find this of interest regarding Bobby Woll.

Phil

http://panzer4520.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic...00#.TwHKQTUlt2A

When you say Bobby Woll, you mean Balthausar Woll yes ?, is that the same man... IIRC he died with Wittman in 007 on Aug 8 44, Its news to me that he commanded his own Tiger, I would like to know more.... So you have met with an LAH vet, Same here. Im glad I got to meet a few Waffen SS vets before they pass on. So far Ive met 2 LAH, 1 DR, 1 Totenkopf, 1 Florian Geyer, and 1 HJ..... I have a certificate of a Treff I attended a few years ago. I know someone who is good mates with Ernst Barkmann, and several associates also met Frau Wittman at a ceremony for her late Husband.... I was so much more in awe of these people and honoured to drink with them much more than I would be over some modern day so called celeb........ If I remember S mine launchers were carried on to some mid types, ie with late cupola and rubber tyres, and I believe the LAH Tiger komp had some of these during the Zhitomir late 43 battles along with the post Kursk 'late early types' that were with LAH during its Italian holiday, well thats what the LAH vets called it !

[Wayne rc]

Thanks Red Dragon, you jogged my memory.... Got it now Woll was with Wittman just before 6th June in the well known portrait photo's taken posed on a late or mid prod model Tiger, prior to the fighting, I now remember that Woll wasnt in OO7 on the fateful day, IIRC only 3 crew including Wittmann were found and re buried. Rudolf Hirschel and Heinrich Reimers. It was interesting to note that when Woll said Oct this was when LAH returned to the East around Kiew, that they had a Tiger with zim, this confirms that they would have had early mids along with the later early type, When Wittmann and Woll were awarded the Ritterkreuz in Jan 44 they had a late early type ie turret track hangers, early cupola,S04 I think,with 88 kills in big black rings on the barrel, I have the photo of this reprinted from the Tank museum archives... Thanks Red very interesting.....

[Mick Modeller]

So you have met with an LAH vet, Same here. Im glad I got to meet a few Waffen SS vets before they pass on. So far Ive met 2 LAH, 1 DR, 1 Totenkopf, 1 Florian Geyer, and 1 HJ..... I have a certificate of a Treff I attended a few years ago. I know someone who is good mates with Ernst Barkmann, and several associates also met Frau Wittman at a ceremony for her late Husband.... I was so much more in awe of these people and honoured to drink with them much more than I would be over some modern day so called celeb........

It's sad that I never did more, back in the day I was stationed in Münster when I met the LAH guy, he was a taxi driver and had some old comades mags in his taxi and I was able to name all the vehicles and weapons in the mags which impressed him. It ended with him giving me his home card and I would call it and he would come and get me, I had about a year and a half of free taxis!!! Even had a couple of meals at his house, he looked upon my lot as kindred spirits, saying that in the war only two things frightened him, being captured by the Ruskies and the British Guards Division.

I was supposed to meet with Barkmann, I was to take a pile of prints for him to sign, but from memory he was going through a phase of avoiding publicity and by the time the necessary was organised it was too late for me. It would have been nice to have met the man and cadged an autograph for my collection, but sadly another old soldier has gone to Valhalla!

[Wayne rc]

Hi Mick, Yours is a Touching story.. I hav'nt seen the guy that knew Barkmann for about 5yrs so its news to me that he has gone now.... Mick it was amazing to meet up with the vets, I don't know about you, but I found that they were very touched by the interest and knowledge that us younger people of a former enemy had for thier units exploits history and equiptment, as well as being impressed, one day out with a couple of them was at Kevin Wheatcrofts private collection, where I was given the honour of giving a talk about the various Afv's..... The vets were very impressed when they learned from myself, the details I pointed out on a Tiger I, that had the features that made it one of the first 50 produced.......One of the Vets from Totenkopf, had stayed on in the UK after the war... And served in the British army, in an armoured unit, as did his son..... These men were absolute gents..... No sign or trace of the monster that the allied propaganda(understandable at the time) had made these elite soldier to be....... Anyway how is the Tiger, any news on its livery yet

Edited January 5, 2012 by Wayne rc

[Mick Modeller]

Hi Mick, Yours is a Touching story.. I hav'nt seen the guy that knew Barkmann for about 5yrs so its news to me that he has gone now.... Mick it was amazing to meet up with the vets, I don't know about you, but I found that they were very touched by the interest and knowledge that us younger people of a former enemy had for thier units exploits history and equiptment, as well as being impressed, one day out with a couple of them was at Kevin Wheatcrofts private collection, where I was given the honour of giving a talk about the various Afv's..... The vets were very impressed when they learned from myself, the details I pointed out on a Tiger I, that had the features that made it one of the first 50 produced.......One of the Vets from Totenkopf, had stayed on in the UK after the war... And served in the British army, in an armoured unit, as did his son..... These men were absolute gents..... No sign or trace of the monster that the allied propaganda(understandable at the time) had made these elite soldier to be....... Anyway how is the Tiger, any news on its livery yet

OK Guys, we’re getting into a subject that we don’t want to be getting into, after all this is a modelling forum and not one dealing with the rights and wrongs of war. However disregarding that of the Einsatzgruppen and the Allgemeine SS, atrocities did happen and for that matter still happen! What you hear of in the many written articles is more often than not the writings of someone who has never heard an angry shot. When the bullets stop flying the danger doesn’t end for another 5-30 minutes, the only difference is that the end result will be totally one sided! So when you read about an “atrocity” don’t just read one side, but read what happened before the events described and try and put yourself in the place of the combatants on both sides. Did the Waffen SS commit atrocities, Yes, Did they have atrocities committed against them, Yes. Can any side claim the moral high ground, No! Were the biblical phrase “He who is without sin cast the first stone” applied, no rocks would be lifted!

When you talk about the SS, a book that I read a long time ago “SS: Alibi of a Nation” hit the nail square on the head! To this day when the subject comes up, you will hear the excuse, “it was the SS”, but that wasn’t true and when you point this out there isn’t a comeback, quite simply the SS is still the nations alibi!

You might be talking about Werner Volkner, although his son was in the Royal Air Farce, he wrote a book “Many rivers I crossed”, haven’t had a chance to read it yet.

It looks like S 42, the Tiger of Uscha (later Oscha) Kurt Sowa, he commanded a Tiger throughout the life of 13th Company to S SS-P-A 501. You also see a short clip of him commanding (I think) his tank 222 in the Tondorf film clip. Any photos etc most welcome!

[Derbyeomanry]

On the subject of Tigers-anyone else going to the Tiger anniversary day at Bovington in March?

[Derbyeomanry]

On the subject of Tigers-anyone else going to the Tiger anniversary day at Bovington in March?

[Panzer Vor!!!]

On the subject of Tigers-anyone else going to the Tiger anniversary day at Bovington in March?

i hope to be there chap with the tank museum modellers putting on a small display inside the museum. theres a second day planned for 22/9/12 cosford model show day after as well busy weekend coming up

Edited January 5, 2012 by hood

[Panzer Vor!!!]

fingers crossed the tiger plays ball on the day

Edited January 5, 2012 by hood

[Wayne rc]

OK Guys, we’re getting into a subject that we don’t want to be getting into, after all this is a modelling forum and not one dealing with the rights and wrongs of war. However disregarding that of the Einsatzgruppen and the Allgemeine SS, atrocities did happen and for that matter still happen! What you hear of in the many written articles is more often than not the writings of someone who has never heard an angry shot. When the bullets stop flying the danger doesn’t end for another 5-30 minutes, the only difference is that the end result will be totally one sided! So when you read about an “atrocity” don’t just read one side, but read what happened before the events described and try and put yourself in the place of the combatants on both sides. Did the Waffen SS commit atrocities, Yes, Did they have atrocities committed against them, Yes. Can any side claim the moral high ground, No! Were the biblical phrase “He who is without sin cast the first stone” applied, no rocks would be lifted!

When you talk about the SS, a book that I read a long time ago “SS: Alibi of a Nation” hit the nail square on the head! To this day when the subject comes up, you will hear the excuse, “it was the SS”, but that wasn’t true and when you point this out there isn’t a comeback, quite simply the SS is still the nations alibi!

You might be talking about Werner Volkner, although his son was in the Royal Air Farce, he wrote a book “Many rivers I crossed”, haven’t had a chance to read it yet.

It looks like S 42, the Tiger of Uscha (later Oscha) Kurt Sowa, he commanded a Tiger throughout the life of 13th Company to S SS-P-A 501. You also see a short clip of him commanding (I think) his tank 222 in the Tondorf film clip. Any photos etc most welcome!

Yes Mick I agree... I was not getting into any political area.... And Im aware of the books you mentioned...... The einsatz were not a part of the W-SS.... But sadly for the vast majority that served that had no part in the larger crimes as such... The organisation that thier units were a part of. Was a large part of these crimes..... They were the soldiers of a political movement, but were mostly esp in the 'premier units' ie the Panzer Divisions, too heavily engaged in the Battles that raged on two fronts...... For example the only political reason Werner Volkner gave for joining, was to right the wrongs of the treaty of Versailles....... Yes I have his book, Signed to myself.... He did serve in an armoured recce unit of the British Army and as you mentioned, his son served in the RAF......... A lot of words have been written about the W-SS not all of them good......... But with time, the truth that all sides commited 'atrocities' is coming out..... This has been reflected in two films, Band of Brothers and Saving private Ryan..... Both from the same director............. Neither this post or any other post of mine on this subject were intended to show political bias....... Yes this is a modellers forum, and to many Armour modellers these units are of interest......... And to my mind the subject is no more controversial than, many other modelling subject matter.... Mick, I will have a look and see if I have any pics of S42

[Mick Modeller]

On the subject of Tigers-anyone else going to the Tiger anniversary day at Bovington in March?

The premium tickets have all gone........

[Derbyeomanry]

I managed to get one of the premium tickets - heard about the day earlyand got straight on line.

[Mick Modeller]

Yes Mick I agree... I was not getting into any political area.... And Im aware of the books you mentioned...... The einsatz were not a part of the W-SS.... But sadly for the vast majority that served that had no part in the larger crimes as such... The organisation that thier units were a part of. Was a large part of these crimes..... They were the soldiers of a political movement, but were mostly esp in the 'premier units' ie the Panzer Divisions, too heavily engaged in the Battles that raged on two fronts...... For example the only political reason Werner Volkner gave for joining, was to right the wrongs of the treaty of Versailles....... Yes I have his book, Signed to myself.... He did serve in an armoured recce unit of the British Army and as you mentioned, his son served in the RAF......... A lot of words have been written about the W-SS not all of them good......... But with time, the truth that all sides commited 'atrocities' is coming out..... This has been reflected in two films, Band of Brothers and Saving private Ryan..... Both from the same director............. Neither this post or any other post of mine on this subject were intended to show political bias....... Yes this is a modellers forum, and to many Armour modellers these units are of interest......... And to my mind the subject is no more controversial than, many other modelling subject matter.... Mick, I will have a look and see if I have any pics of S42

Don't worry my comments weren't aimed at you, just the ill-informed that will trundle along and always have to have their say. The problem that will always stick to the Waffen is that their boss was the same as that of the other low-lifes. No matter which army it is there is always a jealousy to the elite units, particularly amongst those that would never have made it into the elites and the Waffen are no different. When you talk to old soldiers, by listening to their accounts you can often tell the front swine form the remfs, the frontswine having little ill to say about them, indeed very often an admiration as difficult fighters.

I guess I'll have to get some photos taken and move onto the "Work in Progress" section.....

[Wayne rc]

Don't worry my comments weren't aimed at you, just the ill-informed that will trundle along and always have to have their say. The problem that will always stick to the Waffen is that their boss was the same as that of the other low-lifes. No matter which army it is there is always a jealousy to the elite units, particularly amongst those that would never have made it into the elites and the Waffen are no different. When you talk to old soldiers, by listening to their accounts you can often tell the front swine form the remfs, the frontswine having little ill to say about them, indeed very often an admiration as difficult fighters.

I guess I'll have to get some photos taken and move onto the "Work in Progress" section.....

I again agree, last thing we need is someone coming along and getting the wrong end of the stick, and maybe wagging a finger, And then Mick, we have to have the debate that you like me have probably heard too often.... Anyway, S43 I will have a look, I take it that its probably one of the final type of the early cupola type, you know what I mean, as the new cupola production started late summer 43 IIRC... If you search out some old History or Discovery channel clips, there are often bits and pieces of LAH Tigers autumn 43 in Russia, you know the thing, you will find it in a doc about the Bulge or Normandy or Berlin, never in a Doc about the Kessel schlact around Kiew and the Dnieper 43. Where the original footage comes from. How do these experts hold down a job....

[Derbyeomanry]

Will this be a scratch build or a conversion of a 1/16 RC model?

[Mick Modeller]

I again agree, last thing we need is someone coming along and getting the wrong end of the stick, and maybe wagging a finger, And then Mick, we have to have the debate that you like me have probably heard too often.... Anyway, S43 I will have a look, I take it that its probably one of the final type of the early cupola type, you know what I mean, as the new cupola production started late summer 43 IIRC... If you search out some old History or Discovery channel clips, there are often bits and pieces of LAH Tigers autumn 43 in Russia, you know the thing, you will find it in a doc about the Bulge or Normandy or Berlin, never in a Doc about the Kessel schlact around Kiew and the Dnieper 43. Where the original footage comes from. How do these experts hold down a job....

Not what you know, but who you know...........

My Favourite is the T-54/55 Tiger 1, have you seen?

My other pet hate is back to front projection, drives me nuts......

One for the Yeoman

It will be the Tamiya early Tiger 1, but I will be adding Aber's big detail kit and I'm going a little off topic for the finished vehicle, something as a tribute maybe, ooh and it will be full radio controlled.

For interest, I've a couple of projects on the "Work in Progress" section, the first a Leo 1A4 that I will am building as a 1 A1A1 and a Bengal Tiger that I built perhaps 20 years ago and undergoing a "depotinstandsetzung" The turret drive went US and needs replacing, added to this I'm going to be uprating the torsen bars, fit new (metal) tracks. I might even PE a lot of the hull, but I don't know, it might be better starting from scratch.

FYI, I'm a disabled vet with muscular and eye problems, so the work when it happens, finances allowing comes in fits and starts, so don't be expecting anything happening in a vast hurry.

[Derbyeomanry]

Good stuff - will watch with interest