Early Spitfires Mk.I with Watts prop.

[DominikS]

Hi Folks!

Just started building an early Spitfire with Watts prop and one wthing made me curious. I can only find No. 19 squadron Spits in the photos. Does anyone saw pics of Spits with Wats from othes squadrons?

[Selwyn]

Hi Folks!

Just started building an early Spitfire with Watts prop and one wthing made me curious. I can only find No. 19 squadron Spits in the photos. Does anyone saw pics of Spits with Wats from othes squadrons?

Spitfires did not have Watts propellors they were only used on Hurricanes.

The two blader used on Spitfires were made by Aeroproducts a different company.

Selwyn

Edited September 12, 2011 by Selwyn

[Andrew Jones]

Only the first seventy seven aircraft off the production line were fitted with the two blade propellor, some of these were delivered to 66 and 41 squadrons as well as 19 sqd. However, since the two blade props were quickly replaced by a three blade DeHavilland propellor, they may have been replaced before actually seeing service with 41or 66 squadrons.

[Test Graham]

Spitfire the History has photos of K9845 being compass swung immediately before delivery to 41 Sq, and K9822 (presumably similarly) before delivery to 66 Sq. Both have 2-blade props. K9822 only lasted one month, so I suspect retention of the 2-blader is a safe bet. I suspect the delivery of the DH propellors was intially to new production aircraft, and it may have been some time before those already delivered were upgraded. However, photos of the units that I have ready access to do show the DH propellor with Munich-period roundels and codes, except for one blurry print which shows a gathering of Spitfires in this period, and the 19 Sq ones in the foreground still have the 2-bladers. I think this is also true of at least one 41 Sq aircraft in the row behind, but the quality of the picture does not really justify that.

Air Britain did a series with detailed histories of early Spitfire batches, but I can't find the first batch and have one missing issue - Spring 2005. Hopefully it is only misfiled, but it is unlikely to be found in time to help you. However, the AB book The K File covers the first batch, and provides several serial/code linkages from the first seventy-seven airframes. For example 66 Sq K9804 RB.P, 41 Sq K9843 DL.H. There is a fairly widely reproduced picture of K9987 RB.V showing the style of the roundels and codes from this period, with white (they say, I think grey) serial but 3-blade prop and raised top to the canopy.

If the first 77 had the 2-blader, then you can also add 74 Sq, with K9871 JH.O

Edited September 12, 2011 by Graham Boak

[Greenshirt]

Graham,

Reading your post got me thinking...dangerous...but my experience with real aircraft over the last 30 years was that squadron aircraft received upgrades before new production aircraft if combat performance was improved. My impression is the DH prop improved combat ops a bit; therefore a combat pilot would want that edge, however slight, the DH prop would bring. Of course, our modern upgrade kits were usually made in quantities larger than aircraft production initially in order to get fielded aircraft upgraded quickly. And I'm not talking about upgrades that require an aircraft to be sent back to a maintenance unit. And after a long intro...

Do you know the logic behind production upgrades leading retrofits in squadrons for Spitfires? Or am I reading too much into it and wasting brain cells?

Tim

[gingerbob]

Ow, my brain cells!

The answer is, "Yes"! Sometimes work parties went around downloading the latest upgrade, sometimes the changes went in on the production lines and squadrons traded their "last year's model" for ones just off the show-room floor. Some upgrades never seemed to catch up with some aircraft, which would find themselves in some backwater... I don't think there's any hard-and-fast rule.

bob

p.s. One case in point: early Mk.IXs were built without a gun camera. Sometime in spring '43 (I think) they began to be fitted to new builds, AND squadron aircraft were cycled through MUs to have that, and probably other updates, installed.

[Test Graham]

Difficult to say, but certainly Hurricanes were in France with the 2-blade prop long after the DH prop had entered service, and even after the Rotol one had appeared. One replacement Hurricane is recorded as appearing with the fabric wing (though I don't think there's the slightest suggestion that this was new-build!). As another example, Bader flew to Supermarines to get the metal ailerons for his Spitfire, whilst his squadron companions remained with the fabric ones.

I suspect it is a matter of simultaneous allocation of the parts as they were made - some to new production and some to the MUs. Although the convenient place for most such modifications would be in the MUs rather than on the squadrons, clearly from the photos many aircraft were modified in squadron service. There were examples of particular mods being carried out by dedicated teams: the change from variable pitch to constant speed DH propellors in June 1940 and the fitting of the D fins onto Halifaxes being examples. These were both highly significant changes, and replacement by normal rotation was not considered good enough. The majority of upgrades produce rather less significant improvements than the variable pitch propellor and the bulged hood, and thus would be done at a lower priority. Under wartime pressures, the older aircraft would be rapidly weeded out by attrition or cycling through major servicing, and ended up in the training units.

In the particular case of the 2-blade prop vs the DH, remember that this occurred in peacetime. The priority was on getting new aircraft to an expanding number of squadrons: there was little value in re-equipping one frontline unit just to form another to the abandoned standard. Faster and better to get the mod onto the production line first and catch up with the older aircraft later. This would also reduce the total number of conversions needing to be done, and indeed hopefully reduce the wasted effort on building more examples of the older part.

More recently, as in your experience, production rates were much slower with a static force. It is always easier and quicker to produce a larger number of mod parts than a new aircraft, so the benefit shifts to carrying out the mods as far forward as possible.

[Edgar]

When the seat armour became available, in May, 1940, The Air Ministry recommended that they be fitted in order of airfield priority, so it's possible, even logical (hah!) that the same criteria were used. They started with Manston, Kenley, Biggin Hill, Hornchurch, North Weald, Northolt & Tangmere, and finished up (north) at Turnhouse and Wick.

Edgar

[Greenshirt]

Thanks much for the quick, and thoughtful, replies. A less murky picture emerges, in my mind's eye.

Tim