Meteor NF 14 question

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Just a quick check on the colours for a RAF Meteor NF 14 of No 64 Sqd RAF, Duxford 1958. The instructions have it as Dark Sea Grey and Dark Green over Medium Sea Grey. Would this be correct?

I have a feeling the underside colour should be Light Aircraft Grey but I may be wrong.

thanks

Mike

[Duncan B]

Just a quick check on the colours for a RAF Meteor NF 14 of No 64 Sqd RAF, Duxford 1958. The instructions have it as Dark Sea Grey and Dark Green over Medium Sea Grey. Would this be correct?

I have a feeling the underside colour should be Light Aircraft Grey but I may be wrong.

thanks

Mike

No. the Medium Sea Grey would be correct.

[Giorgio N]

As Duncan said ! Light aircraft grey was not introduced as a camouflage colour until the late '60s

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Thanks guys. I knew it changed at some point but couldn't remember

thanks

Mike

[Giorgio N]

Thanks guys. I knew it changed at some point but couldn't remember

thanks

Mike

Mike, it's a bit more complicated than that (although it makes no difference on your model...): originally RAF night fighters had the later wartime camouflage of overall medium sea grey with dark green bands on the uppersurfaces. The Meteors NFs had this scheme initially.

The scheme was then replaced by the one of the plane you're building, dark green and dark sea grey over medium sea grey.

At some point all the fighters adopted the silver undersides, and this was the scheme carried by hunters and javelins (I don't think any Meteor NF ever carried this). At that point the night fighters did not exist anymore. Light aircraft grey then replaced silver starting in the late '60s.

[Dave Fleming]

At some point all the fighters adopted the silver undersides, and this was the scheme carried by hunters and javelins (I don't think any Meteor NF ever carried this).

One definitely did, and possibly at least one other (Both NF11s) - the one that definitley did was WD790, but as a trials aircraft, it may be non-standard. the intruiging thing is the 'possible' had a serial number very close to that.

UK Day Fighters were always silver undersides, they just adopted upper surface camouflage!!

[Wez]

At that point the night fighters did not exist anymore. Light aircraft grey then replaced silver starting in the late '60s.

Didn't 60Sqn's Meteor 14s based out in Singapore get the DSG/DG/Silver Scheme? Pretty sure there's markings for one in these colours on one of the Modeldecal sheets.

Wez

[Sten Ekedahl]

Didn't 60Sqn's Meteor 14s based out in Singapore get the DSG/DG/Silver Scheme? Pretty sure there's markings for one in these colours on one of the Modeldecal sheets.

Wez

Just checked the one I built several years ago using the Modeldecal decals. According to Dick Ward's instructions they were painted High Speed Silver underneath.

[Giorgio N]

See, every day here I learn something new ! I didn't think there were NF meteors with silver undersides and here are a few !

[Dave Fleming]

See, every day here I learn something new ! I didn't think there were NF meteors with silver undersides and here are a few !

Here's one!

http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1029922F.jpg

The interesting thing about this is that in B+W it can be quite difficult to tell the difference between MSG and aluminium

[dambuster]

Here's one!

http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1029922F.jpg

The interesting thing about this is that in B+W it can be quite difficult to tell the difference between MSG and aluminium

But strictly speaking, although based on the NF airframe, it could hardly be called a night-fighter with a TSR2 radar on the front end.....

Peter

[sloegin57]

I must confess that I was quite surprised when reading this thread to learn that Aluminium painted under surfaces on the Meteor NF series was so little known. But then, it was fifty years ago and I am getting on a bit.

In the UK, they were more common than appears to be generally recognised, although not with front line Units. Certainly in the Far East, 60 Squadron's NF14's were painted Dark Green/Dark Sea Grey upper surfaces with Aluminium under surfaces. In the UK, Number 2 ANS, 228 OCU and AWOCU had them together with the many Communications Flights that were around in those days. There were even a few NF.11's painted up in that scheme although they were fairly rare.

I've put together a bit of a photo essay for you, sorry its not in colour:-

60 Squadron also had a very attractive T.7:-

HTH

Dennis W Robinson

[Dave Fleming]

But strictly speaking, although based on the NF airframe, it could hardly be called a night-fighter with a TSR2 radar on the front end.....

Peter

What intruiges me about this one is that I was already aware of the 'other' NF11 before I came across this one, with a definite silver underside. The other one, WD792, is in Steve Bond's Meteor book, and shops an operational aircraft on 29 Squadron (IIRC - I'm not at home at the moment). The B+W pic seems to show an aircraft with a division along the forward fuselage, exactly where the camo division should be. I'd speculated that it could be silver/aluminium but then came across WD790, only one serial away, in exactly that scheme.....

Edited September 7, 2011 by Dave Fleming

[sloegin57]

I agree with the comments that it is difficult, in a black and white photograph, to tell the difference between Aluminium and Medium Sea Grey but with the Meteor NF series life is made much easier by the fact that the dividing line between the upper and lower paintwork on the Dark Green/Medium Sea Grey painted aircraft and the Dark Green/Dark Sea Grey upper surfaces with Medium Sea under surface painted aircraft, runs along the centre line of the aircraft with the camouflage line turning down to the mainplane upper surface.

Meteor NF's with Dark Green/Dark Sea Grey upper surfaces and Aluminium under surfaces have the dividing line between the upper and lower paint work low down on the fuselage.

HTH

DR

[Sten Ekedahl]

One interesting detail on the NF.14 of 60 Sqn visible on the photo Dennis enclosed in his post, are the two small air intakes under the fuselage just below the cockpit. These were normaly only fitted to the NF.13, but aparantly added to some NF.14.

[AnonymousAA72]

I love these threads! Any excuse to dig out some old Modeldecal sets to see what Mr Ward's take was.....

On Sheets 88, 92 and 93, all Meteor NF units were covered. Generally MSG/DG or MSG/DG/DSG rules, but on Sheet 88, we have 68 Sqns NF11 WM293/"B" . This is the one with the two tone blue and yellow leading edge stripe on the fin and tailplane. (I built this one from a PJ resin kit - it may have featured in SAMI many eons ago). It has the low demarkation line as noted by Dennis above, that featured on most camouflaged F8's and certainly has the upper surfaces in DSG and DG. However, lower surfaces are listed as being in MSG.

Sheet 92 has 5 Sqns NF11 WD663"C" in the same scheme, and it also includes 60 Sqns NF14 WS800 as in Dennis's photo above. The notes state: "60 Sqn machines are believed to have had aluminium silver undersides.) I think that 60 Sqn markings may have been included in Aeroclub's 1/.48th NF14 - though I may be getting confused with Dynavector's Javelin!!!

Sheet 93 has 2ANS's NF14 WS774/"D" (the same aircraft as in another of Dennis's photo's) but in the same scheme (DG/DSG/Silver/Dayglo) as on WS842.

I'd certainly agree that Meteor NF's with Dark Green/Dark Sea Grey upper surfaces and Aluminium under surfaces have the dividing line between the upper and lower paint work low down on the fuselage, but it wouldn't necessarily follow that ALL NF's with the lower dividing line had silver below - it appears from the Modeldecal sheets that most had MSG.

The Meteor is without doubt a most fascinating modelling project! And great pic's DR - keep 'em coming!!!

One interesting detail on the NF.14 of 60 Sqn visible on the photo Dennis enclosed in his post, are the two small air intakes under the fuselage just below the cockpit. These were normaly only fitted to the NF.13, but aparantly added to some NF.14.

Good call Sten! Well spotted ...

Edited September 7, 2011 by Bill Clark

[sloegin57]

I love these threads! Any excuse to dig out some old Modeldecal sets to see what Mr Ward's take was.....

I'd certainly agree that Meteor NF's with Dark Green/Dark Sea Grey upper surfaces and Aluminium under surfaces have the dividing line between the upper and lower paint work low down on the fuselage, but it wouldn't necessarily follow that ALL NF's with the lower dividing line had silver below - it appears from the Modeldecal sheets that most had MSG.

The Meteor is without doubt a most fascinating modelling project! And great pic's DR - keep 'em coming!!!

Good call Sten! Well spotted ...

Damn right it was Sten - I've had those photos for donkeys and I hadn't noticed !!.

Oddly enough Bill, I was thinking about the same thing ref undersurface colour just after I posted the last thread. I was trying to put myself into the shoes of the SNCO (being ex mons self) on a non operational Unit such as an ANS, Comms Squadron etc and what I would do when instructed to re-paint the Units Meteor/s in the "new colours".

there are so many variables - What the Boss wanted; availability of paint; time to do "it"; manpower ? - no problem, plenty of National Servicemen in them days to do the stripping etc. If the Unit was a fairly small one then probably the first two or three would be given the full treatment i.e. with Aluminium under surfaces, the rest would probably just have the upper surface Dark Green/Dark Sea Grey brought down to the "new" demarcation line. If the Unit was, for example, a Comms Squadron which regularly flew "Higher-Ups" around, then the aircraft would get the whole treatment plus a polish - again - plenty of National Servicemen around. If the aircraft were re-finished at an MU or an ASF then again the whole kit and caboodle would be applied as they would not want User Units to send back complaints (putting up a Black it was called).

On a Squadron, the whole thing would be done as per The Instruction as no Commanding Officer in his right mind would want anything else and there would probably be quite a bit of Competition, as there was when the 8's were first camouflaged, to be First with the "new" colours. The SNCO's would be in no doubt as to what was required, especially if, nod-nod; wink-wink, O.B.E's and other bits of jewellery were in the offing, after all O.B.E means Other Buggars Efforts !!.

This thread could turn into an interesting one. With regard to the photo of WD790 previously posted. I have a feeling looking at it that an attempt has been made to reproduce late "NF" colours with the application of an Aluminium under surface long after the "Meatbox" had been cosigned to the scrap heap.

Attached is a shot I took of her at Wittering way back and in her original colours:-

With regards the Modeldecal sheets. I'm currently in correspondence about Phantoms with young Dick, he was only 73 a couple of days ago, and grill him about his sources re the Meteors. I'll also point him in the direction of this thread - if we are lucky we may hear from him - then I can get my own back for something else , but as I said before, I agree, it is very difficult to tell Aluminium from Medium Sea grey on a Mono photo.

Dennis

[Dave Fleming]

With regard to the photo of WD790 previously posted. I have a feeling looking at it that an attempt has been made to reproduce late "NF" colours with the application of an Aluminium under surface long after the "Meatbox" had been cosigned to the scrap heap.

Attached is a shot I took of her at Wittering way back and in her original colours:-

Nice pic Dennis, although the caption is wrong re undersurface :-) - you can just see the division between the aluminium and the MSG on the rear fuselage. Regarding WD792, what intruiged me was the fact that there WAS a noticable dividing line on the'grey' at the mid-level position on the forward fuselage. Makes me wonder if a small number of NF11s were finished that way.

[Giorgio N]

The impression that Meteor NFs with silver undersides were not known might just come from my comment that I didn't think there was any... now I'm glad to see a few ! I could have probably used my brain a bit better on this though: IIRC the switch to silver undersides for all types of fighters was issued in early 1954, so it should have made sense that planes operational a few years later would have switched to this colour. Of course I'd imagine this would have only happened when a repaint was required, as happened to many other schemes before and after. As 60 Sqn. meteors were still flying in 1960, it should have come as no surprise to find they had been repainted in those 6 years.

[AnonymousAA72]

The impression that Meteor NFs with silver undersides were not known might just come from my comment that I didn't think there was any... now I'm glad to see a few ! I could have probably used my brain a bit better on this though: IIRC the switch to silver undersides for all types of fighters was issued in early 1954, so it should have made sense that planes operational a few years later would have switched to this colour. Of course I'd imagine this would have only happened when a repaint was required, as happened to many other schemes before and after. As 60 Sqn. meteors were still flying in 1960, it should have come as no surprise to find they had been repainted in those 6 years.

A good point....though the NF scheme of MSG lower surfaces (with DG or DG/DSG uppers) remained until the late 50's. There wasn't really a "switch" to silver lower surfaces as the "Day Fighter" scheme in '54, camouflage WAS introduced about then, on Sabres, Swifts and Hunters - and this included silver (and PRU blue) undersides. As Dave points out earlier the undersides were already silver (on the day fighter scheme anyway) as a part of them being overall silver anyway!

As you say, by 1960 the standard Day Fighter scheme would have been the norm - so thats maybe why the 60 Sqn NF14's were coloured that way.....

[sloegin57]

Nice pic Dennis, although the caption is wrong re undersurface :-) - you can just see the division between the aluminium and the MSG on the rear fuselage. Regarding WD792, what intruiged me was the fact that there WAS a noticable dividing line on the'grey' at the mid-level position on the forward fuselage. Makes me wonder if a small number of NF11s were finished that way.

You could very well be right there Dave. Having looked again at the slide and enlarged it further there is also a dividing line visible on the port engine nacelle and (just) visible on the nose under the cockpit. The more I think about it the more plausable it seems bearing in mind Giorgio's notes. Possibly re-finished at Unit level that way and it's certainly not unknown for Units to mis-interperet instructions.

I didn't normally make notes when shooting colour , innocently relying on Kodachrome or Agfacolor to "record" the aircraft for me.

[sloegin57]

The Meteor is without doubt a most fascinating modelling project! And great pic's DR - keep 'em coming!!!

They most certainly are Bill and very useful for the "Rivet Counters" !. Nothing to do with NF's but you asked me to keep them coming so I will:-

205 AFS - up from Acklington - early fifties. P.W was RA444.

DR

[Dave Fleming]

As you say, by 1960 the standard Day Fighter scheme would have been the norm - so thats maybe why the 60 Sqn NF14's were coloured that way.....

If you look at Jevelins, at some point in their development/introduction, All Weather fighters adopted the same scheme as day fighters (Perhaps the distinction in operational role was done away with) with lower demarcations.

DR - wow!!!

Edited September 8, 2011 by Dave Fleming

[stever219]

Sorry, I may have missed a post or two here, but some NF14s had the Dark Sea Grey/Dark Green/Medium Sea Grey scheme with the old high demarcation as seen on the Mks 11-13, for exmple WS830 of 46 squadron (which I believe was the Boss's jet). There's a nice colour photo of some of 152 Squadron's NF 14s on the front dust jacket of "Jet Jockeys" (sorry I can't remember the author's name and my copy of the book is packed away in the loft) also wearing this scheme.

HTH,

Steve

[Wez]

Sorry, I may have missed a post or two here, but some NF14s had the Dark Sea Grey/Dark Green/Medium Sea Grey scheme with the old high demarcation as seen on the Mks 11-13, for exmple WS830 of 46 squadron (which I believe was the Boss's jet). There's a nice colour photo of some of 152 Squadron's NF 14s on the front dust jacket of "Jet Jockeys" (sorry I can't remember the author's name and my copy of the book is packed away in the loft) also wearing this scheme.

HTH,

Steve

Steve,

You're right, NF14's were around during the chageover period and appear in both schemes. I'd forgotton about 68 Sqn's NF11 in the DSG/DG/Silver scheme.

Wez

Edited September 8, 2011 by Wez