RAF Camo questions

[Boscombe73]

Whilst the paint is still drying so to speak, anyone know the colour used on some late in the day Lightnings. I believe it only appeared upon a handful of F6's, and was akin to a very dark blue, grey. I seem to remember it being called Indian Grey, but could be wrong. The only colour reference I have seen so far is for a mix of grey and blue (Humbrol 25)... Any ideas out there? Was it possibly a one off batch, as I remember reading somewhere that the lighter Barley Grey type scheme was deemed as too visible at low level over the North Sea by some pilots.

Thanks

Rob

[AnonymousAA72]

Whilst the paint is still drying so to speak, anyone know the colour used on some late in the day Lightnings. I believe it only appeared upon a handful of F6's, and was akin to a very dark blue, grey. I seem to remember it being called Indian Grey, but could be wrong. The only colour reference I have seen so far is for a mix of grey and blue (Humbrol 25)... Any ideas out there? Was it possibly a one off batch, as I remember reading somewhere that the lighter Barley Grey type scheme was deemed as too visible at low level over the North Sea by some pilots.

Thanks

Rob

Standard RAF Dark Sea Grey I'm afraid, nothing more exotic than that....there were various schemes used, and included Mediun Sea Grey, Barley Grey and Light Aircraft Grey and with varying demarkation lines. Some parts of some airframes were interchanged with other grey Lightnings and also Camouflaged Lightnings - resulting in a few odd-ball schemes. Well documented on Modeldecal sheets, Airfix kit, Mike Keep drawings in SAM etc., etc.,

Dark Sea Grey F6 XR773

Edited August 19, 2011 by Bill Clark

[Boscombe73]

Thanks Bill

No need to start mixing squint inducing paint mixes then.

Rob

[Dave Fleming]

I seem to remember it being called Indian Grey, but could be wrong.

An interesting story behind that one - it apparently WAS referred to as Indian Grey, the rationale for that being that it was the same grey as used on the later batch of Indian Sea Harriers (which were painted a lighter grey than the original aircraft)

[Edgar]

I don't think that we should get too obsessive about Lightning schemes; during the 1980s I got to know a modeller, who'd been stationed at Binbrook, and he told me about what happened when he wanted to paint a model in the "right" colours, so he went to the sprayshop. The conversation went something like this:-"Can I have some of the camouflage paint, please?" "Sorry, mate, can't help." "Oh, well, there's no need to be like that." "I'm not being like anything, mate; when an aircraft comes in, for repaint, I mix up a fresh batch each time. If I don't have enough in stock, I go down to Halfords." He said that it then dawned on him that the Lightnings' colours didn't just look different; they were different.

Also, there was no such official colour as high-speed silver; the wording used was "high speed silver finish." Camm wrote to the Ministry of Supply, in 1953, saying that they were having great difficulty in finding a suitable silver finish for the Hunter, so could he continue to paint them in Sky (he called it "the green part of Naval Fighter finish") instead, please?

Edgar

Edited August 19, 2011 by Edgar

[At Sea]

The reason for all over camo on low level types is that from a 'hiding' point of view it does not matter really what colour the aircraft is, all over dark sea grey or all over dark green would make little difference to visibility at 500kts and 100ft from above.

What DOES matter is the change in colour, if the aircraft is manouvering hard at low level then it is quite possible that the first time you see it will be when something catches your eye, in training it was all too often the 'flash' of a light grey underside that alerted the other 'combatant' to the presence of the aircraft. By using an all over scheme if the aircraft does bank over the colour visible from above stays the same, and the is no 'flash' to catch the eye. Similarly the canopy is also a dead give away as the sun can glint off this in a simlar manner to a heliograph mirror.

Strangley pilots have always been reticent about not having a highly polished clear canopy. ;-)

[AnonymousAA72]

I don't think that we should get too obsessive about Lightning schemes; during the 1980s I got to know a modeller, who'd been stationed at Binbrook, and he told me about what happened when he wanted to paint a model in the "right" colours, so he went to the sprayshop. The conversation went something like this:-"Can I have some of the camouflage paint, please?" "Sorry, mate, can't help." "Oh, well, there's no need to be like that." "I'm not being like anything, mate; when an aircraft comes in, for repaint, I mix up a fresh batch each time. If I don't have enough in stock, I go down to Halfords." He said that it then dawned on him that the Lightnings' colours didn't just look different; they were different.

Obsessive - me? About Lightnings?........Oh yes!!!

These Lightnings were painted using MOD defined camouflage schemes using BS381C and BS4800 colour standards. In fact Mr Barley and associates at RAE Farnborough would have spent a lot of time, effort, and finances in formulating these schemes following experiments with other types as well - including an overall Light Aircraft Grey Phantom FGR2

By this time in their lives Lightnings were staged through the MU at RAF St Athan to have the grey paint schemes applied. In fact Roger Lyndsay' Ian Allan Lightning Aircraft Special book (1988), gives dates when individual Lightning's went there for their re-spray. Looking through the dates of their application is very interesting.

With the exception of the one-off XR770 (in Barley Grey/LACG and then later with Red L/E, fin and spine), there were two distinct colour schemes. "Light/Barley Grey" and "Dark/Indian Grey". The former scheme was fairly standard and was applied initially. It consisted of Medium Sea Grey upper wing surfaces and upper fuselage half with Barley Grey fin, Lower fuselage half with LACG lower wings and tailplane. The demarkation line on the fuselage ran in line with wing l/e at the front and slightly higher at the wings trailling edge.

The Dark/Indian Grey scheme consisted of Dark Sea Grey upper surfaces, with Medium Sea Grey lower fuselage and Barley Grey lower wings. There were two distinct "Dark" schemes. The demarkation was either high - in line with leading and trailling edges of the wing or low - at the lower cable ducting in line with the tailplane. The latter seems to be more common.

Some Lightnings were originally painted in the "Light" scheme and went back to St Athans for a "dark" scheme re-paint. In fact according to Roger Lyndsays book it lists approx 20+ "light" schemes originally applied on the F6. (I didn't count the F3's or the T5's!) . All of these were painted between early 1981 and late 1983. Of these 20+ nearly half were re-painted in the Dark scheme. A further half dozen or so were painted in the Dark Scheme initially. All the Dark schemes were painted from mid-1983 until 1985 ish. So it appears the light scheme was the original "Standard" and this was replaced by the Dark scheme as standard - or maybe would have been - had the Lightning stayed in service.

Its important to note again that ALL of these re-paints were done at RAF ST Athan. Where the MU would have had the correct paints. Photo's of newly painted Lightnings show them to be very clean. In fact it appears that the Dark scheme wore a lot better - certainly compared with the light scheme. This of course could be due to the time that the latter scheme had been on the planes by the time they were retired!

Those Lightnings seen at Binbrook in 1986 & 7 still in Dark Sea Grey/Dark Green - missed out on the grey schemes as they were in storage. Photo's show these to be particularly tatty - certainly where time expired grey Lightnings were cannibalised to provide parts. The nine-ship Lightning formation from XI sqn that was meant to fly on the last day of ops at Binbrook but didn't (though in normal RAF fashion - did manage the practise flight the day before!) due to the weather was interesting - of the nine, Four were in Dark Sea Grey/Dark Green Camo; One (XR770) was in over all Barley Grey - the red being removed when 5 Sqn disbanded. Two only were in the "Light" scheme - and one of them had a Black fin and spine (XS903/"BA"), and two were in the Dark/Indian scheme;

Certainly there were some anomolies , but my research has shown that these were few and far between. Any variations in colour schemes towards the end, were as much of a result of panels being changed or paint fading, fresh mixes of the CORRECT paint being applied (and contrasting with older faded paint) as much as Painters and Fitters being let loose with a can of Halford's!

It's therefore a bit misleading to assume that these aircraft were all painted in such a haphazard way. I'm sure thats not what was inferrered....

Anyone wanting to paint a Dark Grey Lightning can therefore safely use Dark Sea Grey as a starting point!!

Edited August 21, 2011 by Bill Clark

[Kev1n]

interesting and timely considering I have a revell lightning to paint.....

[AnonymousAA72]

interesting and timely considering I have a revell lightning to paint.....

Yes, me too!!!!!

[Kev1n]

Mine is the revell kit, appears to suggest the dark grey, but I can't say I'm too enthuisiastic about it tho - I think I'd prefer another colour

Not sure if I could use the kit decals tho....