TSR-2 Warshot loads..

[spike7451]

Just answered the question on the Airfix Tribute site & it got me thinking.If the TSR-2 had gone into service,what would it have carried?...

Here's what I answered with;

I'd imagine it would carry the standard British inventory of weapons,not many of them US tho until you get to the Sidewinder & Mavrick missiles.

I'd imagine the'd be a couple variants-

The bomber,which would carry;

BL755.

1000lb dumb bomb with slick or retarded tail units.

1000lb LGB's

ALARM Anti Radar missiles.

In addition to the above,I'd imagine a strike load of a WE-177 freefall nuclear bomb in the bomb bay & additional drop tanks under the wings.

The Close support role aircraft,which in addition to the above would carry;

MATRA rocket pods.

Maverick AGM's.

Then the Naval Strike version in RAF service which would carry;

Harpoon & Sea Eagle missiles.

Bearing in mind the timeframe I'm thinking of is up to,say,1989,what do you think?..

Merv

[Col.]

Interesting thoughts Merv. Have the Airfix 72nd kit in the lower shelf of the stashrobe (that's where the ones I want to start in the near future reside) and had considered a 12 Sqn. machine based at Lossiemouth in the maritime strike role toating a couple Sea Eagle but the idea of hanging some MATRA pods on it is tempting. Guess that, like every other fast jet in the RAF inventory, it's role and equipment would have changed throughout it's service life but I'm assuming a rough guide can be taken from the aircraft that filled in when it was cancelled and what they carried?

[spike7451]

Interesting thoughts Merv. Have the Airfix 72nd kit in the lower shelf of the stashrobe (that's where the ones I want to start in the near future reside) and had considered a 12 Sqn. machine based at Lossiemouth in the maritime strike role toating a couple Sea Eagle but the idea of hanging some MATRA pods on it is tempting. Guess that, like every other fast jet in the RAF inventory, it's role and equipment would have changed throughout it's service life but I'm assuming a rough guide can be taken from the aircraft that filled in when it was cancelled and what they carried?

That's sort of my idea,We wouldn't have had the Tornado,Jag or the Brick so progressing what they in turn developed into was my basis for the load.Obviously the RAFG TSR's wouldn't have carried the Harpoon or Sea Eagle but their role would've been more close support or nuclear strike & the UK based TSR's more long distance role,going on the cold war basis.

I'd imagine for close air support,a bomb bay gas bag & a twin SNEB pod mount on the wing outer pylon,utilizing a twin store carrier arrangement & maybe four BL755's on a MER on the inner pylons,with overwing or even wing tip Swinders.(Maybe even Red Top or Firestreak missiles on a all over silver machine..hey,I'm liking that idea!! Silver TSR2 ala 60's Lightning...)

[Col.]

Well I did read somewhere, most likely Damien Burke's book on the subject, that there was consideration given to an interceptor TSR.2 so overall silver with a few Red Tops and/or Firestreaks may have come to pass as a form of very-long range high speed bomber destroyer.

On the subject of Damien Burke's book; I'm sure there is a chart showing some proposed loads for various roles. Will see if I can unearth it and let you know what was being considered if that's of any interest to you?

[spike7451]

Well I did read somewhere, most likely Damien Burke's book on the subject, that there was consideration given to an interceptor TSR.2 so overall silver with a few Red Tops and/or Firestreaks may have come to pass as a form of very-long range high speed bomber destroyer.

On the subject of Damien Burke's book; I'm sure there is a chart showing some proposed loads for various roles. Will see if I can unearth it and let you know what was being considered if that's of any interest to you?

It's got me interest peaked....

[Nigel Bunker]

even wing tip Swinders.(Maybe even Red Top or Firestreak missiles on a all over silver machin

The wing tips were not strong enough to carry missiles - perhaps shoulder mounted pylon launchers as on the Tornado?

As to loads - I would think that anything carried by Buccaneers or Phantoms in the strike role in the late 60s/early 70s perhaps progressing to LGBs and cluster munitions (I am thinking of those pods the Tornado used to carry under its fuselage) as it came towards the end of its service in the 90s.

Edited July 25, 2011 by Nigel Bunker

[spike7451]

The wing tips were not strong enough to carry missiles - perhaps shoulder mounted pylon launchers as on the Tornado?

As to loads - I would think that anything carried by Buccaneers or Phantoms in the strike role in the late 60s/early 70s perhaps progressing to LGBs and cluster munitions (I am thinking of those pods the Tornado used to carry under its fuselage) as it came towards the end of its service in the 90s.

JP233's...It wouldn't be feasable to mount them onto a wing pylon due to the way it's carried unless the wing pylon runs right the way back to the back of the rear pod.The is a hinge bracket that is attatched to the back of the rear section of the JP & the pylon.When the weapon is jettisoned,the hinge ensures clean seperation of the store from the pylon.the hinge then splits apart when the weapon pod clears the aircraft.Although I remember an occasion when half the pylon came off with the pod as the hinge didn't split properly..

[Julien]

I would go for Martel & Then Sea Eagle in the anti shipping role as per the bucc's.

Julien

[Col.]

Had a quick look through Burke's book this morning and there are details of a few loads that were considered;

AS.30 and Bullpup missiles were discarded early on in favour of the Martel. These were to be carried on the inner wing pylons with an internal fuel tank in the fuelage bay.

MARTA pods could be fitted to all four wing station.

1000Lb 'iron' bombs could also be fitted to all wing stations and a further six packed into the bay.

The Firestreak/Red Top missile could be carried for interceptor duties, either one on the inner wing station or two staggered in the bay, along with fuel tanks to increase range as the aircraft would have been stationed at 25.000 ft using both side-looking and a larger forward-looking radar as a form of armed-AWACS.

WE177C were also projected for use in bay or inner stations.

A streamlined chaff/flare dispensor was also designed for use on the outer stations.

Those are all that I can recall seeing from the brief look I had this morning but sure other items would have been trialled either in tests as the aircraft was developed for squadron use or as it's role changed and other stores became available.

[Gerard]

I thought that JP233 was modular, so that for other than the Tornado GR1, it could be packaged into smaller containers. Or, split up the anut-runway anmd anti-personnel loads, one per wing.

Regards,

Gerard

JP233's...It wouldn't be feasable to mount them onto a wing pylon due to the way it's carried unless the wing pylon runs right the way back to the back of the rear pod.The is a hinge bracket that is attatched to the back of the rear section of the JP & the pylon.When the weapon is jettisoned,the hinge ensures clean seperation of the store from the pylon.the hinge then splits apart when the weapon pod clears the aircraft.Although I remember an occasion when half the pylon came off with the pod as the hinge didn't split properly..

[Alex Gordon]

On a long distance Instant Sunshine Express Delivery vehicle I feel that SNEB Pods would be a waste of resources,one best left to the Harrier Mates.LGBs would be a good one,anti shipping would be the forte of choice.As per the Tonka,a system similar to the JP 233 would have been custom designed for the same specific purpose.

As for suggested warloads,Anti Satellite anyone? Or would that be best left to the Canberra Mates?

[spike7451]

I thought that JP233 was modular, so that for other than the Tornado GR1, it could be packaged into smaller containers. Or, split up the anut-runway anmd anti-personnel loads, one per wing.

Regards,

Gerard

JP's come in a front & rear container & the MACE lugs are specific for the Tornado.It uses the front & rear HDERU points on the shoulder pylons,any other aircraft would have to have two sets of hardpoints & the distance between the front & rear sets the same as the Tornado,not to mention the separation hinge for the rear section.They're not modular like the German MW-1 system,being ready loaded & you can't 'mix & match' like you can with the MW-1.

I used to hate loading the JP-233 as most times the 'Z' loader would break on you!!

[Tim T]

IIRC, one of the Model Alliance Decal sheets shows over-wing mounted Sidewinders. I am going to do one of the prototypes first but really want to do a WHIF scheme at some point. Does anyone think that they might have ended up in the first Gulf War? A pink one might be quite fun, but that becomes a real nightmare in terms of loadout....

[Pearson.J]

JP233's...It wouldn't be feasable to mount them onto a wing pylon due to the way it's carried unless the wing pylon runs right the way back to the back of the rear pod.The is a hinge bracket that is attatched to the back of the rear section of the JP & the pylon.When the weapon is jettisoned,the hinge ensures clean seperation of the store from the pylon.the hinge then splits apart when the weapon pod clears the aircraft.Although I remember an occasion when half the pylon came off with the pod as the hinge didn't split properly..

Got one of them on my shelf

[Nigel Bunker]

Does anyone think that they might have ended up in the first Gulf War?

Well TSR2 was eventually replaced by the Buccaneer, and that made it into Gulf War 1 before being retired, so why not?

[Richard E]

To offer an alternative thought, if the TSR2 and much of the rest of the British aviation industry not beeen written off by Duncan Sandys we'd probably see it carrying a range of different stores rather instead of those that were actually used by the RAF.

TSR2 carrying a couple of "Green Cheese" missiles anyone?

[lufbramatt]

another idea for the TSR-2 is the role of electronic warfare as carried out by the EF-111A Raven. I'm thinking a big antenna fairing on the top of the tail fin and a big fixed pod underneath carrying electronics, maybe a couple of sidewinders for self defence.

[Col.]

There was a proposal for a recon pod to fit into the bay but doubt the all-moving tailfin could have been wired to take tip pod of that size.

[Gerard]

Merv,

Might be useful looking around for some old magazines.

One of them had a several month series on the history and planned squadron service of the TSR-2 in the RAF. Someone might have them spare or be able to photocopy / scan some of the relevant pages.

Pretty sure that it was spread over 4 or 5 months, and came out when Airfix released their TSR-2 in 1/72.

You might also find these of interest:

http://www.stevebroadbent.net/TSR2links.html

http://www.modelgeeks.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/m...lanned-loadouts

Regards,

Gerard

[lufbramatt]

There was a proposal for a recon pod to fit into the bay but doubt the all-moving tailfin could have been wired to take tip pod of that size.

didnt realise the whole fin moved! every day's a school day

[Nigel Bunker]

One of them had a several month series on the history and planned squadron service of the TSR-2 in the RAF. Someone might have them spare or be able to photocopy / scan some of the relevant pages.

Pretty sure that it was spread over 4 or 5 months, and came out when Airfix released their TSR-2 in 1/72.

It was later published in book form as "TSR.2 Lost Tomorrows of an Eagle" by Paul Lucas and published by the publishers of SAMI.

[Pete in Lincs]

It was later published in book form as "TSR.2 Lost Tomorrows of an Eagle" by Paul Lucas and published by the publishers of SAMI.

A few weeks ago I finished a 1/48th version for a mate.

Given free reign, having the above book & knowing what he likes,

He ended up with a Purple/Grey over sky JASDF anti shipping strike aircraft.

The Mitsubishi AS 1 (And why not?) Decals from a Hasegawa Neptune kit.

Inboard pylons carry drop tanks, along with a bulged bellytank.

Outboard, in the lost tomorrows book there is an Avro proposal for

a Nuclear missile. I searched my spares box & found a couple of

60's American missiles that were similar. Add a Ramjet underneath,

bulge the nose for a Hollowcharge warhead & I ended up with

something that never existed but looks like it would have taken

out anything afloat!

Yes, my mate was chuffed.

I did take pics & would like to show them once I get photobucket sorted.

Pete (on hols in Lincolnshire)

[mrvr6]

A few weeks ago I finished a 1/48th version for a mate.

Given free reign, having the above book & knowing what he likes,

He ended up with a Purple/Grey over sky JASDF anti shipping strike aircraft.

The Mitsubishi AS 1 (And why not?) Decals from a Hasegawa Neptune kit.

Inboard pylons carry drop tanks, along with a bulged bellytank.

Outboard, in the lost tomorrows book there is an Avro proposal for

a Nuclear missile. I searched my spares box & found a couple of

60's American missiles that were similar. Add a Ramjet underneath,

bulge the nose for a Hollowcharge warhead & I ended up with

something that never existed but looks like it would have taken

out anything afloat!

Yes, my mate was chuffed.

I did take pics & would like to show them once I get photobucket sorted.

Pete (on hols in Lincolnshire)

we need pic and we need em now

[Pete in Lincs]

we need pic and we need em now

Sorry, I'm in the UK until the end of August on sick leave.

I'll try to sort it when I get back to Riyadh (where the computer is)

failing that I'll email pics to you (don't tell anyone else!)

I also have a Stratos TSR2 and another set of meatballs,

so it may happen again (and this one's for me!)

All the best

Pete

[dambuster]

The main thing that no-one seems to have thought about is how some of the free-fall pylon mounted ordnance would have been delivered. Missiles and forward firing pods are fine, but I think that some of the free fall drop trials could have been very interestinng given the proximity of the tailplane to the mounting pylons, certainly for the inboard ones. I tend to think that the favoured delivery profile would have been a loft attack and this may have restricted what could have been carried.

Peter