Deacon Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I am trying to find out if there was a convention regarding the RAF squadron serial codes of WW2. I've just completed a Spitfire Mk.II, and with the nose pointing to the left I have put the codes QV (under the canopy) then the roundel, then J. But, how should it read the opposite side? Sorry if this is a lame question, but I have a Mk.IX which shows the serials as (pointing left) ZX (under canopy) roundel 6, (pointing right) 6 roundel XZ under canopy. Finally I have a Mk.I which (pointing left) ZP (under canopy) roundel J, (pointing right) ZP roundel J under canopy. Cheers Deacon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 The instructions could be interpreted to suit the airframe; they just said that the two-letter Squadron code had to be on one side of the roundel, with the aircraft's individual letter on the other side. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Basically all squadron codes on all types had the unit code ZX, QV etc forward of the roundel BOTH sides as standard. So, for example, your ZX-6 is right! One or two squadrons did this differently. 65 squadron for example always had their code 'SH' forward of the roundel on the port side and on the starboard, reading from the right(Nose of aircraft) aft of the roundel so on the left side the read SH*B and on the right hand side SH*B as opposed to other units that would have read WZ*B and B*WZ. Basically the unit two letter code generally always under and slightly behind the cockpit. Hope this helps. Edited July 20, 2011 by Paul J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoyTech Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Basically all squadron codes on all types had the unit code ZX, QV etc forward of the roundel BOTH sides as standard. So, for example, your ZX-6 is right! Well, I'm afraid what you said is wrong, both generally, and specifically. There was no 'standard' way of applying the code. As regards Spitfires at least, some units applied the squadron code (Deacon, note that the two-letter unit designator is known as 'code' not 'serial'; 'serial' is the specific airframe number) near the cockpit on both sides and the aircraft letter near the tail, others had the opposite arrangement (squadron code near the tail and aircraft letter near the cockpit); while others applied the letters in XX*A arrangement on both sides, where XX is the squadron code. 145 Sqn/Polish Combat Team was in the latter category (at least in early 1943), so your ZX-6 is wrong, as the code should read ZX-6 on both sides (meaning that on the starboard/right hand side of the fuselage the ZX was near the tail and the 6 was under the cockpit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) Well, I'm afraid what you said is wrong, both generally, and specifically. There was no 'standard' way of applying the code. As regards Spitfires at least, some units applied the squadron code (Deacon, note that the two-letter unit designator is known as 'code' not 'serial'; 'serial' is the specific airframe number) near the cockpit on both sides and the aircraft letter near the tail, others had the opposite arrangement (squadron code near the tail and aircraft letter near the cockpit); while others applied the letters in XX*A arrangement on both sides, where XX is the squadron code. 145 Sqn/Polish Combat Team was in the latter category (at least in early 1943), so your ZX-6 is wrong, as the code should read ZX-6 on both sides (meaning that on the starboard/right hand side of the fuselage the ZX was near the tail and the 6 was under the cockpit). By the way you put it it sounds the same as what I have stated but another way!!!!!! You need to re -read it and you'll see that I am right. As usual there were several anomalies and it was the exception rather than the rules!!!!!! The codes were applied at Squadron level and other units in addition to 65 may have positioned their code at the rear on the starboard sidebut in all cases the roundel positionwas always symetrical on both sides. Edited July 20, 2011 by Paul J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 It's all very well to be didactic but a photo would be nice...... Other 145 Sqn aircraft seem to be ZX-whatever on BOTH sides but pics of both sides of 6 would be conclusive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 .. in all cases the roundel positionwas always symetrical on both sides. Not sure that that's true either. ISTR that the factories applied Lancaster fuselage roundels in staggered positions to permit application of the codes in the XXoA arrangement on both sides. Or were you just talking about Spitfires? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3DStewart Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 (edited) The instructions could be interpreted to suit the airframe; they just said that the two-letter Squadron code had to be on one side of the roundel, with the aircraft's individual letter on the other side.Edgar As Edgar says. Different squadrons did it in different ways. It wouldn't surprise me if there were occasional inconsistencies even within the same squadron. Deacon, were you using my decal set for your Mk II? If so, I would advise having the squadron codes forward of the roundel on both sides, as this appears to be normal practice for 19 Squadron. Regards Stewart P.S. If you want to do a 1:72 Spitfire II Long Range, I've just released the parts and decals. Edited July 20, 2011 by 3DStewart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Photos in Polish Wings 13 show ZX-0 and ZX-5 that way on the starboard side, and Wojtek Matusiak states that this is because it was standard practice to have them that way on 145 Sq. It may well be ideal to want a photo of ZX-6 as well, but I think I'm pretty safe in thinking it will be consistent rather than an oddball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Fair dos. Humble pie taken BUT as mentioned earlier application of codes are subject to variation at the whim of units and exceptions to the rule. Maybe I didn't explain myself too clearly but I hope the gist of it was understood and am mainly talking about fighter aircraft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted July 20, 2011 Share Posted July 20, 2011 Hi To quote an exception to all the rules I have a photo (packed away) of a lysander coded PV-P, all ahead of the roundel on the port side, it is an ASR lysander,but it has a yelow/black under engine cowling a target tug.( presumably a replacement part) Cheers Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Thomas Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 Hi To quote an exception to all the rules I have a photo (packed away) of a lysander coded PV-P, all ahead of the roundel on the port side, it is an ASR lysander,but it has a yelow/black under engine cowling a target tug.( presumably a replacement part) 3-letter groups also seen on Mustangs, Spits, Mossies, Beaufighters .... The only conclusion to be drawn from this thread is that if you only have a reference for one side of an aircraft - you cannot be sure what is on the other! Although you can sometimes make an educated guess, depending on what other refs you have. CT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 One needs to remember the way in which code letters developed. At first the idea was to have the Squadron number, in the colour of the relevant flight (as in the 19 Squadron photos,) but this was discarded in favour of letters, and the reference was clearly designed for bombers, since it has 48" as a general height, which would never fit onto fighters. This reduced to 36", which was fine (just) for Hurricanes, but hopeless for Spitfires (DW-K anyone?) It was reduced to 24", as a general rule for fighters, but this was still a struggle for Spitfires, since there is not 24" to spare under the glass, with the canopy open, so Spitfire Squadrons received a special dispensation to use 21" letters. This worked fine, and, of course, made it easier to fit the Squadron letters aft of the starboard roundel, even though it meant painting over the serial no. (which mattered little, since it was still whole on the port side.) Difficulties recommenced when the roundel was moved forward, very late, or post, war, possibly due to the arrival of the cut-down fuselage, and there is a very clear photo of Mark 21s, of 41 Squadron (port side only) with the "E" of the Squadron code obscured by the open door. Edgar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deacon Posted July 22, 2011 Author Share Posted July 22, 2011 Thanks everyone for your input into this thread. References are the key. Cheers Deacon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Found pictures in my various refs and there does seem to be a number of variations and mostly down to squadron level. A Polish squadron for example had the 'WX' AFT of the roundels by the tail on BOTH sides! Many units had the codes Forward of the roundels both sides just behind the cockpit as did many units have them fore and aft of the roundels i.e reading left to right YY * Y on left and right sides. So there are very many variations to the 'exception rather than the rule' scenario. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewerjerry Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 3-letter groups also seen on Mustangs, Spits, Mossies, Beaufighters ....CT Hi Chris, I forgot those aircraft.... Your post reminds me it is time to browse your excellent 2nd TAF books again, I just realised it is about a year since I last picked one off the bookshelf.... Are there any new books by you in the pipeline that you are able to reveal ? Cheers Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Thomas Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Your post reminds me it is time to browse your excellent 2nd TAF books again, I just realised it is about a year since I last picked one off the bookshelf.... Are there any new books by you in the pipeline that you are able to reveal ? Hi Jerry Glad you like them and that they are on your shelves and not in store! Nothing in the immediate pipeline I'm afraid. Concentrating on getting my records in order ... you'll know what I mean ... and wondering which model to build first. Or which of half a dozen to finish. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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