Rosenberg92 Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Hi all, Am currently speeding through Hobbyboss' 1/72 Bf-109E Trop kit, it fell together and although probably not the most accurate kit out there it was good enough to get done quick to get me going again. I chose to model White 4 of JG 27 but thats all the information the kit gives. JG-27 operated famously in North Africe and the Mediterenean (amongst other theatres) and in 1943 were situated in Sicily. I tried to research this aircraft, to find out who flew it and what pictures I could gather but all I can find are generic resources for JG-27 and nothing on White 4. When I did, it was for a FW-190 so irrelevant to my search. Can anyone fill me in with the blanks? Who flew the aircraft, the combat record of the pilot and if and when it was shot down? I have flicked through my sources and books and studied pictures but am yet to find White 4. Thanks in advance and all the best, Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prop Duster Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Hi all,Am currently speeding through Hobbyboss' 1/72 Bf-109E Trop kit, it fell together and although probably not the most accurate kit out there it was good enough to get done quick to get me going again. I chose to model White 4 of JG 27 but thats all the information the kit gives. JG-27 operated famously in North Africe and the Mediterenean (amongst other theatres) and in 1943 were situated in Sicily. I tried to research this aircraft, to find out who flew it and what pictures I could gather but all I can find are generic resources for JG-27 and nothing on White 4. When I did, it was for a FW-190 so irrelevant to my search. Can anyone fill me in with the blanks? Who flew the aircraft, the combat record of the pilot and if and when it was shot down? I have flicked through my sources and books and studied pictures but am yet to find White 4. Thanks in advance and all the best, Dan. Dan Bet if you give the Luftwaffe Experten guys a try, they will be able to help.... CLICK HERE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg92 Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 Thanks a lot will give them a try. All the best, Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 (edited) Any other markings?I'm not familiar with the kit. JG27 were converting to the F from April '41 though it did take a while before the entire wing was "upgraded" which means we are looking at a fairly short time span for a "tropical" E. Steve Edited July 1, 2011 by Stonar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy Smith Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Hi all,Am currently speeding through Hobbyboss' 1/72 Bf-109E Trop kit, it fell together and although probably not the most accurate kit out there it was good enough to get done quick to get me going again. I chose to model White 4 of JG 27 but thats all the information the kit gives. JG-27 operated famously in North Africe and the Mediterenean (amongst other theatres) and in 1943 were situated in Sicily. I tried to research this aircraft, to find out who flew it and what pictures I could gather but all I can find are generic resources for JG-27 and nothing on White 4. When I did, it was for a FW-190 so irrelevant to my search. Can anyone fill me in with the blanks? Who flew the aircraft, the combat record of the pilot and if and when it was shot down? I have flicked through my sources and books and studied pictures but am yet to find White 4. Thanks in advance and all the best, Dan. Dan my suspicion than rather this being a famous pilot, it's a famous photo. There a load of Signal colour pics of JG27 in the desert, including an ultra famous shot of a 109E in desert camo , sand with green blotches flying over the perfect landscape for it to blend in.....sand with random green bushes... Not go the relevant book to hand but that's my guess.... HTH T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Danmy suspicion than rather this being a famous pilot, it's a famous photo. There a load of Signal colour pics of JG27 in the desert, including an ultra famous shot of a 109E in desert camo , sand with green blotches flying over the perfect landscape for it to blend in.....sand with random green bushes... Not go the relevant book to hand but that's my guess.... HTH T That photo is of an E-7 of 1./JG27, "White 3", but it's a good point.There are several photos in that series,I'll have a shufty for a "White 4" later. Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango98 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Hi Dan, I have a photo of White 4 of the 3.Staffel taken at Ain-el-Gazala in the latter half of 1941 and shortly before the I.Gruppe converted to the 109F. It is finished in sand coloured upper surfaces with irregular green blotches and has a white theatre band around the rear fuselage. Under surfaces are pale blue (either 65 or 76) and the spinner appears to be white. The photo is taken from the port rear quarter and only a part of the spinner is visible. I also have copies of the Gruppe’s KTB from 1941 so I’ll look through it to see if there is any mention of who flew the aircraft. If you’d like a scan of the aircraft, send me a PM with your email address and I’ll send you a copy. HTH Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango98 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Dan, Forgot to mention this in my previous post but I'll be going through the Luftwaffe Quartermaster loss/damage reports for another project this weekend. As this means I'll be going through a vast amount of pages, I'll have a look to see if there are any incidents involving a White 4 reported by Flifü Afrika/X.Fliegerkorps which if there are, will provide a date, location, incident and quite often, a pilot name. Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldhouse Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Hi Roseberg, I suppose you looking for the Bf 109 E-7 Trop of I Gruppe / 1. Staffel JG 27 because the 1. Staffel equiped with the Bf 109 E-7 Trop variant was set up at Ain el Gazala on 18th April 1941. The white digits belonged to the I Gruppe / 1. Staffel. Like you i could not found some pics or informations of the wanted white 4. The attached pics shows the E-7 Trop white ten of the 1. Staffel, gives you a idea how they was painted. If you would like to build the white Ten i could send you the Decals for the Digits in 1/72 scale ! Sorry for my basic english Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg92 Posted July 1, 2011 Author Share Posted July 1, 2011 Hi all Sorry for late replies and thanks for all the information gathered. As for more information on the kit: The instructions say White 4 of JG 27 1943. That is all it has. Its overall sand top of wings and top half of fuselage, pale blue undersides rising up halfway up the fuselage. No blotch camoflage (or spinach as I call it). White band fuselage markings, white underwing tips and white spinner which rolls back just over the start of the fuselage. I painted it like this as I could find no definitive proof of White 4, I found various pictures and sources including the famous picture of White 3 blending into the desert background from my book by Christopher Shepherd, ''German Aircraft of World War Two''. For all I know, White 4 may have been left painted like this, plain, rather than camoflaged with the blotches. I have pictures of FW-190's, JU-87's and other BF-109's from 1941 - 1943, all from North Africa, Sicily, Crete and the Mediterrenean and most are painted in similar schemes of sand over pale blue but incorporate some form of dark green camoflage in the form of squiggles of spinach blotches, much like Italian Aircraft of the period too. Looking at sources it could be that Hobbyboss' reference may have been a picture taken days or weeks before White 4 was updated with camoflage as I have two pictures of White 3 of JG 27, one all over sand with pale blue undersides with green blotches and one as I described above from kit instructions with green blotches overlapping the split in the camoflage, as if quickly painted over the and to blend in from air attacks on Luftwaffe bases. Research turned up no names of pilot or locations of kills, kill claims or whether or not it was shot down and when. I did uncover JG 27 was in Sicily during 1943 (when the kit instructions claim) and the kit rightly depicts it as an E-7 though some planes had upgraded. Had it been the ride of a famous Luftwaffe pilot, I feel more information would of been at hand but as it is I have struggled. I will continue searching but for now I am declaring her done, I will leave her as she is until I come across a reference that corrects me and then I will amend. Thanks again for all the information and all the best, Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prop Duster Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Hi allSorry for late replies and thanks for all the information gathered... ...I will continue searching but for now I am declaring her done, I will leave her as she is until I come across a reference that corrects me and then I will amend. Thanks again for all the information and all the best, Dan. Sooo, now that it is done you ARE going to post pictures, arn't you??? As, we all, are involved and now have a vested interest in how this one came out-eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) I'm at work and can't check but an E-7 at a front line unit in 1943 just doesn't sound right to me. Steve Edited July 4, 2011 by Stonar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango98 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Steve (and for anyone else interested), For what it’s worth and as far as the 109E-7 goes, the majority of those remaining in service in 1943 were those being operated by Schlachtgeschwader I on the Eastern Front in the area of Kharkov. However, by May of that year they had been replaced by Fw 190s. One of the last damage/loss listings for an E-7 of the unit was recorded on 23 March 1943 when W.Nr. 6097 of the 2.Staffel force-landed at Kharkov-North with severe (40%) flak damage. Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzo the Magnificent Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 That's an interesting colour scheme and another variation. Up till now I've only ever seen the blotchy scheme with a mid-fuselage demarcation line. All the low-fuselage demarcation line schemes that I have seen have been purely sandgelb uppersurfaces. So many choices! So little time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonar Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Thank you Dave,it would have bugged me (as these things do) until I got home to check,and that's not until Thursday. From memory JG 27 had replaced their Es with Fs,even in Africa,by late '41. Cheers Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango98 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Hi Steve, Yes, JG 27 began their transition to the F late in 1941 at Ain-el-Gazala (circa Nov/Dec if memory serves). Anyway, on the subject of 109E-7 White 4 I could not get Photobucket to co-operate in order to post a photo of it so I've asked my good friend Edgar to post it in the thread for me so it should be appearing here shortly. Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Like wot 'e said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Flynn Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 (edited) Like wot 'e said. That's "Yellow 4" there....number has a black outline. Emil's with white numbers this timeframe for this JG would have had solid white IIRR.....Dave can correct me if I'm wrong there. Yellow 4 Starboard side view White numbered Emil's Jg 27 Edited July 4, 2011 by Don Flynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tango98 Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Hi Don, You're correct of course - I scanned the wrong photo! Cheers Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg92 Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Hi all, Yes photos to come into RFI shortly, I ran out of Matt Varnish so while being done, she wasnt exactly completely done until today. While the Box says it is an E, I have been wondering whether what they actually have supplied is a G? When I post pictures I will link and you can all see for yourselves, but boxed as an E-4/7 this looks more like a G, and when I checked my references for a BF-109G White 4 in JG-27 I found this: Clicky Here. This shows a G-2 of JG-27, Triple Chevron YELLOW 4, as being the ride of Hauptmann Gustav Rodel, and in 1943 being in Tunisia, and then Trapani (Siciliy). He survived the war with a kill rack of 98. Kit instructions supply and say to use swastikas but apparently his bird had none. However, more discovering has lead to seeing this: (albeit a picture from his aircraft as depicted in 1942, so, by 1943 he could have been White 4 but I cannot confirm this or have any proof). Clicky here. Not only has the kit claimed to be an E but is a G, but the kit shows Triple Chevron White 4, when it should be Triple Chevron Yellow 4. Camoflage matches the instructions but as for accuracy? Way off I feel? It turns out Gustav Rodel flew wingman for Adolf Galland at the start of the war and became an exceptional pilot yet the kit has no information on this. A quick google on him shows he is very well documented and a wealth of information comes up. Anyway, I will post pictures later this evening but I dont want to now. I feel that the aircraft is false and thanks to Hobbyboss' confusing instrutions and lack of information on White 4 (A mix up which had it been Yellow 4, wouldnt of happened) this aircraft is now fictional. Oh damn. Pictures to follow. Thanks a lot everyone and all the best, Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Flynn Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Hi Don,You're correct of course - I scanned the wrong photo! Cheers Dave I hate it when that happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg92 Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Photos up in Ready for Inspection now, see Here. Cheers, Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Flynn Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Looks good, that's the Bf 109G-2 kit FYI. Hobbyboss does make the Emil which we all thought you were talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosenberg92 Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Looks good, that's the Bf 109G-2 kit FYI. Hobbyboss does make the Emil which we all thought you were talking about. I have both, and both have been on the modelling desk, and look identical. I must have gotten something mixed up but as far as I can tell it should be Yellow 4 not White 4, so one small hurdle over and another crops up. Yes, shes a G-2 and the Emil is in the stash but the kit decals should have her as Yellow 4, will source some Yellow numbers out and get them on. All the best, Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Flynn Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I have both, and both have been on the modelling desk, and look identical. I must have gotten something mixed up but as far as I can tell it should be Yellow 4 not White 4, so one small hurdle over and another crops up. Yes, shes a G-2 and the Emil is in the stash but the kit decals should have her as Yellow 4, will source some Yellow numbers out and get them on.All the best, Dan. Try this sheet here if you can get it that side of the pond http://www.squadron.com/ProfileDetails.asp?item=EP72071 The 4 on the one machine is a dead match, I plan on using it myself for the same machine down the road Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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