Hunter F1 or F4 of 43 and 222 Sqns

[Duncan B]

Hi Folks

I am looking to make a Hunter F1 of 43 Sqn or an F4 of 222 Sqn. First question, does anyone know where I could find photos and serial numbers of aircraft belonging to those Sqns (ok that's really 2 questions)?

Secondly, am I right in saying that the production F1's and F4's were externally the same with the exception of the "Sabena's" (which some F1's were retrofitted with anyway)?

I have the PJ Productions Hunter F4 which I intend to use, that should work for the F1 if I go for the early 43 Sqn option.

Any information would be helpful.

[Giorgio N]

Try and find a copy of Richard Ward's "Hunter Squadrons of the RAF and FAA", it has pictures of F.1 and F.4 of both units.

A quick check on my copy shows pictures of the following F.1 of 43 Sqn: WW645/S, WT618/O, WT622/G. There are then some pics of the squadron F.4.

F.4s of 222 Sqn are: WV406/F, WV372/H, XE676/U, WW650/R. And there's also a pic. of a 222 F.1, probably WT615.

[Duncan B]

Try and find a copy of Richard Ward's "Hunter Squadrons of the RAF and FAA", it has pictures of F.1 and F.4 of both units.

A quick check on my copy shows pictures of the following F.1 of 43 Sqn: WW645/S, WT618/O, WT622/G. There are then some pics of the squadron F.4.

F.4s of 222 Sqn are: WV406/F, WV372/H, XE676/U, WW650/R. And there's also a pic. of a 222 F.1, probably WT615.

Excellent stuff, Giorgio. You always seem to have the answers, thanks.

[Giorgio N]

You're welcome Duncan !

What however I forgot to mention is that the book has been out of production for a really long time. I you can't find any close to you, let me know and I'll send you a scan of the pictures.

I believe that 43 Sqn.F.1s pictures can be found on at least another hunter book I've seen, I'll let you know when it comes to my mind what book it is.

[AnonymousAA72]

Hi Folks

I am looking to make a Hunter F1 of 43 Sqn or an F4 of 222 Sqn. First question, does anyone know where I could find photos and serial numbers of aircraft belonging to those Sqns (ok that's really 2 questions)?

Secondly, am I right in saying that the production F1's and F4's were externally the same with the exception of the "Sabena's" (which some F1's were retrofitted with anyway)?

I have the PJ Productions Hunter F4 which I intend to use, that should work for the F1 if I go for the early 43 Sqn option.

Any information would be helpful.

"Hunters" by Martin W Bowman ( I bought a copy second hand at the Aviation Book shop in Tunbridge Wells at the weekend - after a suggestion on here regarding 92 Sqn Blue Diamonds photo's) . There are 3 photo's of 222 Sqn F4's including WV327/"U", WT771/"C" and WV406/"F". There's also a photo of 43 Sqn's XF402/"S" though by this photo an instructional airframe 7774M at RAF Halton. All have Sabrina's.

Producton F1's and F4's were externally identical, and both could have Sabrina's. The F4's wings were plumbed one 100 Gallon Drop tanks on each wing. I've not seen that many photo's of F4's with tanks though!!

If you're building Hunters and you can wait until next Feb., pop into the Group Build! Make sure you take pic's though and post them here!!

[Test Graham]

Fighter Squadrons of the RAF has photos of both types in both squadrons. Only clean wings, however.

[Duncan B]

You're welcome Duncan !

What however I forgot to mention is that the book has been out of production for a really long time. I you can't find any close to you, let me know and I'll send you a scan of the pictures.

I believe that 43 Sqn.F.1s pictures can be found on at least another hunter book I've seen, I'll let you know when it comes to my mind what book it is.

I went hunting for the book online and could only find one old reference to it. 43 Sqn Hunter photos aren't too hard to come by but 222 Sqn Hunters I've never seen except for the restored Hunter in Newark Museum IIRC.

[Duncan B]

"Hunters" by Martin W Bowman ( I bought a copy second hand at the Aviation Book shop in Tunbridge Wells at the weekend - after a suggestion on here regarding 92 Sqn Blue Diamonds photo's) . There are 3 photo's of 222 Sqn F4's including WV327/"U", WT771/"C" and WV406/"F". There's also a photo of 43 Sqn's XF402/"S" though by this photo an instructional airframe 7774M at RAF Halton. All have Sabrina's.

Producton F1's and F4's were externally identical, and both could have Sabrina's. The F4's wings were plumbed one 100 Gallon Drop tanks on each wing. I've not seen that many photo's of F4's with tanks though!!

If you're building Hunters and you can wait until next Feb., pop into the Group Build! Make sure you take pic's though and post them here!!

Bill did the 222 Sqn Hunters have the code letters on the fin or on the jetpipe and the chequerboards on the wingtips like 43 Sqn carried? I have seen photos of early 43 Sqn aircraft with the code on the jetpipe then around the time of the F6 it moves to the fin?

At the speed I make models at I'll be lucky if I'm ready to start by February but I'll be sure to post pictures when I get around to them.

Edited June 16, 2011 by Duncan B

[Duncan B]

Fighter Squadrons of the RAF has photos of both types in both squadrons. Only clean wings, however.

No tanks, that's good to know. I have seen photos of 43 Sqn F6's with tanks and empty outer pylons, I'm not sure what they would have carried on the outer pylons while still at Leuchars? The tanks that come with the PJ resin kit are beautifully moulded on their pylons, I'll use them on a later mark of Hunter some time.

[Test Graham]

From FS of the RAF, for both units, F1s have the code on the jetpipe and F4s the code on the fin. 43's F1 had the chequers evenly around the roundel (up and down) whereas the F4s have them high (1956 Farnborough display team, so photos should be common). 222 had chequers on the F1s but no squadron colours on their F4s. Maybe new deliveries when photographed?

[Duncan B]

From FS of the RAF, for both units, F1s have the code on the jetpipe and F4s the code on the fin. 43's F1 had the chequers evenly around the roundel (up and down) whereas the F4s have them high (1956 Farnborough display team, so photos should be common). 222 had chequers on the F1s but no squadron colours on their F4s. Maybe new deliveries when photographed?

Interesting about the chequers being evenly placed on the F1's, I have only ever seen photos with them offset higher than the centre line. I guess I've never seen a photo of the F1's then. i must get some reference material, great excuse for a book buying session!

[Giorgio N]

To add some info to what Graham said, a picture of F.4 WW650/R of 222 Sqn in 1961 shows chequers higher up the roundel, same as the 43 F.4s

According to R. Ward, this was a common thing on Hunters as it had been found that the chequers got very dirty in the lower position due stain from an engine cooling vent. Regardless of the reason, it's a fact that while all Hunter squadrons started with the markings aligned with the roundel, many moved them higher over time.

The other picture in the book of 222 F.4s shows planes with no marking, bu the caption says that this was taken before the markings were added. Wonder if it's the same in Grahams' book ?

In the meantime I found another pic of 43 Sqn. F.1s. again with codes on the exhaust pipe and chequers on the centreline. It's in the Dec. 2002 issue of Sam and shows 5 planes, of which WT595/Q and WT587 (no code) can be identified.

This article was meant to accompany a decal sheet that Sam issued that year together with resin parts to convert the Revell kit in an earlier version. The article also has profiles for the decal options poposed. One of them is for WW645/S of 43 Sqn, another for the already mentioned WT615/O of 222 Sqn, both F.1.

Now I'm sure MAM had an article on early hunters too and I have that issue, I'll search the magazine shelf and let you know if anything interesting comes out of it.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Giorgio N

[Duncan B]

To add some info to what Graham said, a picture of F.4 WW650/R of 222 Sqn in 1961 shows chequers higher up the roundel, same as the 43 F.4s

According to R. Ward, this was a common thing on Hunters as it had been found that the chequers got very dirty in the lower position due stain from an engine cooling vent. Regardless of the reason, it's a fact that while all Hunter squadrons started with the markings aligned with the roundel, many moved them higher over time.

The other picture in the book of 222 F.4s shows planes with no marking, bu the caption says that this was taken before the markings were added. Wonder if it's the same in Grahams' book ?

In the meantime I found another pic of 43 Sqn. F.1s. again with codes on the exhaust pipe and chequers on the centreline. It's in the Dec. 2002 issue of Sam and shows 5 planes, of which WT595/Q and WT587 (no code) can be identified.

This article was meant to accompany a decal sheet that Sam issued that year together with resin parts to convert the Revell kit in an earlier version. The article also has profiles for the decal options poposed. One of them is for WW645/S of 43 Sqn, another for the already mentioned WT615/O of 222 Sqn, both F.1.

Now I'm sure MAM had an article on early hunters too and I have that issue, I'll search the magazine shelf and let you know if anything interesting comes out of it.

Sounds great, thanks

[rs2man]

Duncan

Back in the far-off mists of time , Scale Aircraft Modelling produced 2 1/72 decal sheets for early Hunters , which I think were later sold by Xtradecal as well . There was definitely a 43 Sqn option on one of these sheets & I seem to recall there may have been a 222 Sqn aircraft too . If there is a 222 Sqn option , it's not one I'm likely to use , so you can have it if you want . I'll have a search at weekend .

[Giorgio N]

Duncan

Back in the far-off mists of time , Scale Aircraft Modelling produced 2 1/72 decal sheets for early Hunters , which I think were later sold by Xtradecal as well . There was definitely a 43 Sqn option on one of these sheets & I seem to recall there may have been a 222 Sqn aircraft too . If there is a 222 Sqn option , it's not one I'm likely to use , so you can have it if you want . I'll have a search at weekend .

Yes, that sheet included a 222 Sqn. F.1, WT615/O, with chequers aligned with the roundel and code on the tailpipe

I have to correct one of my previous statement: the SAM resin set issued together with these decals was not for the Revell kit but for the airfix one and included new wings, small bore tailpipe and a fuselage plug to correct the airfix fuselage length.

In the meantime I found the MAM article, in the June 2009 issue. It has pictures of 43 Sqn. XE702 (F.4) and profiles of WW645/S (F.1 of 43 Sqn) and WT771/C (F.4 of 222 Sqn).

In the april 2010 issue there's a picture of 43 Sqn WV366/T (an F.4)

[Duncan B]

Duncan

Back in the far-off mists of time , Scale Aircraft Modelling produced 2 1/72 decal sheets for early Hunters , which I think were later sold by Xtradecal as well . There was definitely a 43 Sqn option on one of these sheets & I seem to recall there may have been a 222 Sqn aircraft too . If there is a 222 Sqn option , it's not one I'm likely to use , so you can have it if you want . I'll have a search at weekend .

I would quite happily cover the cost of the decal sheet and postage to get the 222 sqn markings if you have it and are willing to part with it.

[Duncan B]

Yes, that sheet included a 222 Sqn. F.1, WT615/O, with chequers aligned with the roundel and code on the tailpipe

I have to correct one of my previous statement: the SAM resin set issued together with these decals was not for the Revell kit but for the airfix one and included new wings, small bore tailpipe and a fuselage plug to correct the airfix fuselage length.

In the meantime I found the MAM article, in the June 2009 issue. It has pictures of 43 Sqn. XE702 (F.4) and profiles of WW645/S (F.1 of 43 Sqn) and WT771/C (F.4 of 222 Sqn).

In the april 2010 issue there's a picture of 43 Sqn WV366/T (an F.4)

I don't know how I missed those articles! I subscribe to MAM, they are probably lying in the "unopened mail" pile that grows while I'm offshore Quick check of MAM binders later Oops, oh yeah so there is, note to self, "check my own references before posting"!

[dambuster]

Hawker Hunter in Colour by Robbie Robertson gives the following info:

43 Sqn F1: WW599 - A, WT582 - B, WT587 - C, WT580 - E, WT565 - F, WT622 - G, WT613 - R, WT581 - S, WW645 - S, WT618 - O, WT594 - N.

43 Sqn F4: XE702 - B, XF982 - D, WV378 - H, XG341 - H, WV366 - T, XE663 - V, WV324 - U

There is a photo showing WW645 (S), WT618 (O), WT622 (G), WT582 ( in 1955, all without pylons, checked markings centred on the fuselage roundel with code letters on the tail pipe in white.

Airscene no2 has photos of 43 Sqn F1s all marked as above, as follows:

>WT580 (E), WT595 (Q), WT587 (no code), WT588 (P), WT594 (U).

WT618, WT622, WT582, WT588 all have sabrinas. WT588,is also confirmed as having a fighting cock painted on the port nose just below the windscreen.

Hawker Hunter in Colour by Robbie Robertson gives the following info:

222 Sqn F1: WT619 - B, WT651 - C, WT637 - G, WT630 - T

222 Sqn F4: WT771 - C, WV386 - G, WW650 - R, WV327 - U, XE678 - X, WV399 - B, WT811 - D, WT710 - QW, WT721 - B.

There is a photo showing F4 WT771 © no pylons, code letter on fin top, checked markings level with top of roundel.

The text notes that the F1s had the checks aligned with the centre of the roundel and the code letter was on the fuselage, but these were changed on the F4.

Peter

[rs2man]

I would quite happily cover the cost of the decal sheet and postage to get the 222 sqn markings if you have it and are willing to part with it.

Duncan

I sent you a PM yesterday . Reply to it with your address & I'll bung the 222 Sqn decals in the post

[Duncan B]

Hawker Hunter in Colour by Robbie Robertson gives the following info:

43 Sqn F1: WW599 - A, WT582 - B, WT587 - C, WT580 - E, WT565 - F, WT622 - G, WT613 - R, WT581 - S, WW645 - S, WT618 - O, WT594 - N.

43 Sqn F4: XE702 - B, XF982 - D, WV378 - H, XG341 - H, WV366 - T, XE663 - V, WV324 - U

There is a photo showing WW645 (S), WT618 (O), WT622 (G), WT582 ( in 1955, all without pylons, checked markings centred on the fuselage roundel with code letters on the tail pipe in white.

Airscene no2 has photos of 43 Sqn F1s all marked as above, as follows:

>WT580 (E), WT595 (Q), WT587 (no code), WT588 (P), WT594 (U).

WT618, WT622, WT582, WT588 all have sabrinas. WT588,is also confirmed as having a fighting cock painted on the port nose just below the windscreen.

Hawker Hunter in Colour by Robbie Robertson gives the following info:

222 Sqn F1: WT619 - B, WT651 - C, WT637 - G, WT630 - T

222 Sqn F4: WT771 - C, WV386 - G, WW650 - R, WV327 - U, XE678 - X, WV399 - B, WT811 - D, WT710 - QW, WT721 - B.

There is a photo showing F4 WT771 © no pylons, code letter on fin top, checked markings level with top of roundel.

The text notes that the F1s had the checks aligned with the centre of the roundel and the code letter was on the fuselage, but these were changed on the F4.

Peter

Brilliant stuff, thanks for the information

[Duncan B]

Thanks to everybody for your help, rs2man has kindly offered a set of 222 Sqn markings which is a great help and I have a large choice of serial numbers to choose from now.

I'll probably be building this one for the Hunter GB early next year, I'll post photos when it is done.

Many thanks

Duncan B

[Duncan B]

Many thanks to rs2man, the decals arrived today. I am a very happy man, cheers.