Saab J21 - Help with Colours

[Savenosouls]

Can anyone assist - via ebay my 1/72 Hellerfest continues - I have obtained a 1/72 Saab J21A - the colour refs are I understand old Heller refs - I've done some digging around and can find varying conversions to Humbrol enamels (my usual paint) - can anyone suggest the correct colours for a J21 - Top is some sort of olive colour - underside light blue'ish - and any pointers to the inside of the cockpit would be gratefully appreciated. I know that someone on here will know the answer

The colour refs are 7003, 7019,7030,7064 - alternative more accurate suggestions gratefully received!!

Edited June 14, 2011 by Savenosouls

[Killingholme]

The IPMS Stockholm doesn't have numbers for Humbrol, but there's a decent walkaround of the J21 which might whet your appetite. http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2000..._detail_j21.htm

Cool aircaft!

Will

[Savenosouls]

The IPMS Stockholm doesn't have numbers for Humbrol, but there's a decent walkaround of the J21 which might whet your appetite. http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/2000..._detail_j21.htm

Cool aircaft!

Will

Oooo - Thanks - my gut feeling is to paint it similar to the greeny colour in the walkround - I've seen other pictures showing a similar colour to Hu155 (But I've just done 2 PZL 23's in that colour and I'm mid P37B Los - again same colour Hu155) - so a greeny colour it is - will do the underside Hu87 Steel Grey (in reality a bit less blingy aircraft blue). Top surface to be decided prior to start - l've recently returned to modelling and like the heller kits (quite a few bargains to be picked up on ebay)

Any other pointers from anyone else gratefully received.

Edited June 14, 2011 by Savenosouls

[Pete57]

My apologies for resurrecting an old thread…

I’ve bought Special Hobby’s J-21A and J-21R kits.

The J-21A’s instruction sheet gives the same green color as the top surfaces for the cockpit interior (The J-21R’s instruction sheet shows no details for the interior colors!), whereas the old Heller kit’s instruction sheet showed black as the cockpit’s main color.

Can someone please cast some light?

Thanks,

Pete57

[Christer A]

Hello!

Lets see if I can shed some lights on the cockpit colors:

In the book "Kronmärkt" there is a painting instruction dated 1949 for a J21A which states black as a predominant color.

But the two survivors at Flygvapenmusem (excellent documented in Mikael Forslunds book Saab J21 / J21R) are not painted like that!

As they are included in the decal sheet here is a quick recap.

Instrument panel black.

Backrest in leather, dark blue, headrest in natural leather on the J21A, dark blue on J21R.

The rest of the cockpit have the same green color as the outside.

Hope this helps.

[Pete57]

Hi Christer A, and thanks for the info!

Now you've got me wondering if Saab deviated from the existing regulations by painting the cockpit the same top surface green color instead of black, or if the two survivors could possibly have been incorrectly restored...

Any idea?

Pete57

[Christer A]

Well, the instructions are dated 1949, a few years after all J21 left the assembly line.

There is also a B/W photo from the cockpit showing a color difference between instrument panel and other cockpit parts, which leaves me to believe that they were painted green from the beginning.

This walkaround of FFVS J22 that has not been "restored" in any way, just kept also shows a green cockpit.

The tubby little J22 had the slogan "the world's fastest aircraft in relation to engine power"

And the J21R at the museum is actually a new built example, converted from one remaining J21A, just like all the other J21R:s

It was built from 1990-95, and got serial number FV 21643 (last production A21RB was FV21642

But it is strange that SAAB deviated from the instructions?

Must check that instruction again.

...

Ah!

I had read it wrong!

Internal sheet metal are to be painted 0325M, which in plain English is the topside green color.

Good luck with your J21!

[Pete57]

Thanks Christer A,

This finally settles the matter!

[Aardvark]

On 05.01.2012 at 2:53 PM, Christer A said:

This walkaround of FFVS J22 that has not been "restored" in any way, just kept also shows a green cockpit.

But on this walkaround of FFVS J22

on this photo:

and this:

e.t.c.....I see two different shadow green!

As write in article: 

"Looking inside the museum's machine, one sees an original World War II fighter cockpit in perfect condition (sans one clock and an electrig switch box cover to the right). Even the paint and all the wear marks are exactly as they were back in the 1940s. Yummy!"

So, or SAAB use in cockpit inside two different shadow green, or this SAAB been restored!

How result, cockpit J-21 in theory maybe two shadow green colour too!?

What problem in painting cockpit J-21R in 0325M for my? That is problem:

 

she name is Maestro Models photoetch, and this pre-painting photoetch not in 0325M colour! And this big problem as for my! But green colour Maestro Models photoetch, has shadow close with one green colour from photo J-22. Yes very highlight colour, but close how l see.... 

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

[Christer A]

Colored photo-etch rarely matches the interior colors, and you're correct in that the J22 has at least two different shades of green.

I'm sure that @Rudolf_Filip could provide better insight on that cockpit since he has access to one.

 

As for the J21 cockpit colors, I still think that the Maestro etch is wrong, and the "correct" is to use 325M for the entire interior.

 

[Aardvark]

4 hours ago, Christer A said:

Colored photo-etch rarely matches the interior colors, and you're correct in that the J22 has at least two different shades of green.

The question is that means the term coloring of a cockpit? On the given J-22 photos only  cockpit boards which belong to the fuselage have other color and therefore can be 
are regulated by the requirements preshown to the fuselage!

I suspect that this other shade is -primer.

Version about primer 

it is easily possible to confirm or disprove!
For this purpose it is necessary to know what colors were used in Sweden  plane of fortieth or fiftieth as primer.
If any of color the applied primers coincides with that shade that on J-22 photo, then it is possible to assume that coloring of boards of the fuselage and the panel of a cockpit could regulate different the specification and respectively in different color!

 

4 hours ago, Christer A said:

As for the J21 cockpit colors, I still think that the Maestro etch is wrong, and the "correct" is to use 325M for the entire interior.

I agree with you that color photoetching is almost always wrong in questions of color, but possibilities of his adjustment are outside opportunities of most of modellers.
 

......but I after all will try!

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

I found this here:

https://www.modelkitcollecting.com/1970-80s-heller-paints-and-humbrol-equivalents-t2692.html

 

Usual rules apply:

1) No background of who matched them and what was their method?

2) How close are they really?

3) Were Heller close to correct in the first place?

 

7001 Gris amiral – 27 Sea Grey
7002 Jaune vif – 99 Lemon
7003 Rouge vermeil – 60 Scarlet
7004 Vert – 101 Mid Green
7005 Blanc – 34 White
7006 Bleu – 104 Oxford Blue
7007 Or – 16 Sovereign Gold
7008 Alu – 11 Silver Fox
7009 Bronze – 12 Copper Plate
7010 Noir – 33 Black
7011 Bordeaux - 73 Wine Red
7012 Bois clair – 94 Brown Yellow
7013 Vert armée – 102 Army Green
7014 Kaki – 84 Mid Stone
7015 Orange – 82 Orange Lining
7016 Bois fonce – 98 Chocolate
7017 Chaudron – 100 Red Brown
7018 Rose clair – 61 Flesh
7019 Bleu azur – 89 Middle Blue
7020 Gris perle – 64 Light Grey
7021 Vert nil – 90 Beige Green
7022 Lilas – Just a dash on the Humbrol conversion chart (they've never done a matt lilac enamel)
7023 Crème – 103 Cream
7024 Bleu roi – 25 Blue
7025 – not listed on colour chart or Humbrol conversion chart
7026 Terre brulée – 70 Brick Red
7027 Tournesol – 24 Trainer Yellow
7028 Sable foncé – 93 Desert Yellow
7029 Bleu anthracite – 77 Navy Blue
7030 Olive – 123 Dark Olive
7031 Kaki combat – 72 Khaki Drill
7032 to 7059 inclusive – not listed on colour chart or Humbrol conversion chart
7060 Terre – 29 Dark Earth
7061 Vert uniform – 76 Uniform Green
7062 Bleu petrol – 124 Petroleum Blue
7063 Vert acier – 86 Light Olive
7064 Bleu clair aviation – 65 Aircraft Blue
7065 Ocre camouflage – 62 Leather
9000 – 49 Matt Varnish
Gloss
9001 Gris amiral – 5 Dark Grey
9002 Jaune vif – 99 Lemon + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9003 Rouge vermeil – 19 Bright Red
9004 Vert – 2 Emerald
9005 Blanc – 22 White
9006 Bleu – 15 Midnight Blue
9007 Or – 16 Sovereign Gold
9008 Alu – 11 Silver Fox
9009 Bronze – 12 Copper Plate
9010 Noir – 21 Black
9011 Bordeaux – 20 Crimson
9012 Bois clair – 7 Light Buff
9013 Vert armée – 102 Army Green + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9014 Kaki – 84 Mid Stone + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9015 Orange – 18 Orange
9016 Bois fonce – 10 Service Brown
9017 Chaudron – 100 Red Brown + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9018 Rose clair – 61 Flesh + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9019 Bleu azur – 47 Sea Blue
9020 Gris perle – 40 Pale Grey
9021 Vert nil – 38 Lime
9022 Lilas – Just a dash on the Humbrol conversion chart (their gloss lilac was discontinued before 1974)
9023 Crème – 103 Cream + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9024 Bleu roi – 14 French Blue
9025 – not listed on colour chart or Humbrol conversion chart
9026 Terre brulée – 70 Brick Red + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9027 Tournesol – 69 Yellow
9028 Sable foncé – 93 Desert Yellow + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9029 Bleu anthracite – 77 Navy Blue + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9030 Olive – 123 Dark Olive + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9031 Kaki combat – 72 Khaki Drill + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9032 to 9059 inclusive – not listed on colour chart or Humbrol conversion chart
9060 Terre – 29 Dark Earth + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9061 Vert uniform – 3 Brunswick Green
9062 Bleu petrol – 124 Petroleum Blue + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9063 Vert acier – 86 Light Olive + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9064 Bleu clair aviation – 65 Aircraft Blue + 35 Clear Polyurethane
9065 Ocre camouflage – 9 Tan

[Aardvark]

P.S.

By the way, something interesting, with use of two shades green it is possible to observe also on these photos of a cocpit of J-32 Lancen:

Resource:
https://intscalemodeller.com/viewtopic.php?t=18470
Colors rather not bad coincide with J-22 colors!

 

B.R.

Serge

[Aardvark]

28 minutes ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

I found this here:

https://www.modelkitcollecting.com/1970-80s-heller-paints-and-humbrol-equivalents-t2692.html

 

Usual rules apply:

1) No background of who matched them and what was their method?

2) How close are they really?

3) Were Heller close to correct in the first place?

 

7001 Gris amiral – 27 Sea Grey
................

7012 Bois clair – 
9065 Ocre camouflage – 9 Tan

 

All these a color translators are rather conditional!
As example:
British interior green from Gunze and Humbrol:

Or Humbrol 87 against Tamiya XF-25 which many a color translators admit as equal:

As on me that the firm producing paint more is interested to sell the color but not to pick up an equivalent of the shade of paint at the competitor!
Therefore entirely it is impossible to rely on a color translators!
By the way, it is quite possible from this booklet and the text provided by you is taken:

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies]

7 minutes ago, Aardvark said:

 

All these a color translators are rather conditional!
As example:
British interior green from Gunze and Humbrol:

Or Humbrol 87 against Tamiya XF-25 which many a color translators admit as equal:

As on me that the firm producing paint more is interested to sell the color but not to pick up an equivalent of the shade of paint at the competitor!
Therefore entirely it is impossible to rely on a color translators!
By the way, it is quite possible from this booklet and the text provided by you is taken:

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

I agree completely - I wouldn't trust a colour-converter as far as I could throw one!

[John Masters]

The colours in the walk around look suspiciously Soviet...

 

Thank for that Heller/Humbrol list.  

[Aardvark]

1 hour ago, Jamie @ Sovereign Hobbies said:

 

I agree completely - I wouldn't trust a colour-converter as far as I could throw one!

Color translators it as a roulette in casino, it is possible to put on one number and a prize will drop out on another!
But sometimes to you good luck also drops out the necessary number!

 

 

50 minutes ago, John D.C. Masters said:

The colours in the walk around look suspiciously Soviet...

Oh, NOT !!!!!

The Russian hackers

have cracked colors Swedish plane???

 

 

B.R.

Serge

 

[Troy Smith]

FWIW

 

 

EDIT -Now where is my copy of Swedish Fighter Colours....  IIRC that has  close FS matches, and the correct Swedish spellings

 

Ljust BlåGrå - FS 26176

Olivgrön - FS 24079

Note for FS595

Quote

The first figure can be 1,2 or 3 and indicates the level of sheen:

• 1 = gloss
• 2 = semi gloss
• 3 = matt

The Pilot Replicas SAAB J-21A recommends

Olivgrun (Olivegreen) -(uppers and  cockpit)

Close to each of  these, FS 34096, or Tamya XF-61, or Humbrol 116

 

Blagra (blue-grey)- (underside)

Close to each of these  FS 36329,  Tamiua XF-66,  Humbrol 124

 

which is what this says

http://www.ipmsstockholm.org/colorcharts/stuff_eng_colorcharts_sweden.htm

ca.1940:s - 60:s
Colour name	Comment	FS	Humbrol	Tamiya	Xtracolor	Polly S	Gunze Sangyo	Model Master
Blue-grey	Most combat aircraft	FS:36329/36250		T:XF-66
Dark green	Most combat aircraft	FS:34096/34079		T:XF-61

 

the Special Hobby J-21 R recommends

Olivgrun -  Gunze H309 or C309

Blagra - - Gunze H53/C13

 

An Xtradecal Vampire sheet has close matches as well,  but I can't find it  at the mo.

 

HTH

T

[Aardvark]

1 hour ago, Troy Smith said:

Olivgrun (Olivegreen) -(uppers and  cockpit)

Close to each of  these, FS 34096, or Tamya XF-61, or Humbrol 116

(Tamiya XF-61 dark green shadow, Humbrol 116 light green shadow. Humbrol 124 not in my collection, then only Tamiya XF-66)

Tamiya XF-61 = Humbrol 116 ????

I Love it!! (C)

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S.

From Heller:

Humbrol 123 & Humbrol 65!!!

Dark Grey & Light Blue for SAAB J-21A on Heller version........"I Love it!"(c) too!!!

Edited January 12, 2018 by Aardvark

[Troy Smith]

1 hour ago, Aardvark said:

Tamiya XF-61 = Humbrol 116

 

 

One review used a lighter Tamiya green,  XF-61 maybe  good for factory fresh, H116 for a faded.

 

I gave you the FS595 nearest from this book,  which is maybe your best bet.

 

here's few random pics,  note how the different appearances of the colours,  yes, I know, pics off the net...

the names are the clue really,  Light Blue-Grey and Olive Green....

 

 

 

 

 

older perid colour,  the FFVS J-22, colours are the same ones used on J-21

 

 

 

 

@Mike  has been doing a J-22 recently,  and a couple  of Swedish modellers added comments,

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235025117-ffvs-j-22a-swedish-fighter-148/

 

@Rudolf_Filip  and @Christer A   who maybe add some information on the specific colours.

 

HTH

[Mike]

18 hours ago, Troy Smith said:

@Mike  has been doing a J-22 recently,  and a couple  of Swedish modellers added comments,

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235025117-ffvs-j-22a-swedish-fighter-148/

I have?  They did?

 

IIRC I used British interior grey/green and US interior green (possibly RLM80 actually) for the two shades of green, but I don't profess to be an expert on these things.

[Graham Boak]

Given the advances in aircraft paint technologies in the late 30s, several nations turned to Germany for their paints.  This doesn't necessarily mean identical pigmentation, but I'd be inclined to look to RLM 71 and 65 for the two external colours.  However, 71 may not be olive enough.  Sweden also obtained paints from Italy for some aircraft types.  I really should buy the MPM book, of course.

 

I hadn't seen that red J-22 before.  Very interesting.

[Seahawk]

3 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Given the advances in aircraft paint technologies in the late 30s, several nations turned to Germany for their paints.  This doesn't necessarily mean identical pigmentation, but I'd be inclined to look to RLM 71 and 65 for the two external colours.  However, 71 may not be olive enough.  

Funny you should say that.  About 20 years ago I was building this kit and, after doing all the research I could in those pre-internet days, settled on RLM 71 and 65 as the external colours: source of information now unknown.  But, like you, I'm not sure now that RLM 71 is olive enough when compared to the colour photos.

[Christer A]

To use RLM65 for the underside is not the way to go I think.

In the old days, Humbrol 87 was a good match for the underside color Ljust Blågrå (058M) and I still think that's valid. But the picture with Tamiya XF-66 is also quite good.

Some people use Humbrol 163 (yes the new RAF Dark Green one) for Olivgrön 325

Recently MrPaint has done all swedish colors, but some feel that they still are not quite there:

(shamelessly stolen from facebook, here translated to english)

Color matching of some of MRP:s swedish colors!
 

325M: MRP-217(325M) with ca 20% MRP-224(255M).
058M: MRP-175(058M) brightened with a touch of white.

Very pale 325M
MRP-217(325M), MRP-178(322M), MRP-220(032M) in equal parts.

 

 

Let's not forget that the official Swedish Airforce paint manufacturers gets really confused and impressed whenever the modelling guys shows up for samples and mixing paint.

They are never as exact as we modellers think they are

[JosephLalor]

On 1/12/2018 at 6:09 PM, Aardvark said:

 

P.S.

From Heller:

 

Humbrol 123 & Humbrol 65!!!

Dark Grey & Light Blue for SAAB J-21A on Heller version........"I Love it!"(c) too!!!

I imagine that these callouts date from the early days of Hu123's addition to the Humbrol standard range.  It's a dark grey now, but I think that it was originally a continuation in the standard range of the old Humbrol Authentic HX6 Extra Dark Sea Grey, which was distinctly greenish in hue.  I have a pot of Humbrol acrylic 123 which is definitely green.  I remember an article in Airfix Magazine suggesting Hu123 for British Army AFVs.

Edited August 21, 2019 by JosephLalor