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FW 190 A-9 options?


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Here you go...all but one of these images from Peter Rodeike's Focke Wulf Jagdflugzeug.

 

It appears to me that the A-9 ring is not wider when viewed from the front, but does have a different cross-section shape. To my eye, it protrudes farther forward, and has a larger edge radius at the cowl opening. But I could be wrong - definitely a very close thing. I've read this is due more to a deeper oil cooler for the more powerful engine, than armor thickness?

 

4-DDB6-BD2-5-E67-42-F0-8-BD7-9096-C4-F42

 

3-A534-FAA-68-BE-4-A55-9-E08-429511-C09-

 

B7-BE33-B7-8-D94-44-D5-B399-0-C82-DE9-E3

 

1-E874-BAF-81-EA-497-E-ADD0-69692-F0531-

 

3-A00-B9-E4-4767-4687-BDBB-D67-D2-B409-B

Note the clear view of the 14-blade fan and wide wood prop blades in this photo.

 

43-AC3-ECD-7-B60-431-A-8-A54-1-DA16-F100

 

 

84-FE326-C-C80-A-4-D36-A217-4843339-C43-

Edited by MDriskill
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Without having 2 engines side by side and measuring them in detail we will never know (unless we find exact dimensions for each in some document).
All of the lenses have either barrel, pincushion or mustache distortion. Depending on the level of distortion and position of the subject in the image - the deformation of the subject will be accented causing us to see different shapes...
Additionally lens might render 1:1 square in reality into something like 1:1.1 rectangle on the image, further altering the proportions. 
And lastly, the proportions and shapes can be slightly altered in many other ways on a photo even in the printing process so all these images cannot be considered as correct ways to determine a shape of the engine in scientific way. 

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Strangely the old Harleyford book on the Fw190 (from which one of the photos has already come) says that the A-9 was never built and the only example was V-34?

 

I know this series of books is pretty dated but generally this particular one is still well regarded, plus the Squadron Signal book also stops at the A-8 variant, so presumably more up to date information has come to light?

 

Regards

Colin.

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A number of the older references refer to the A-9/R11, which would be the single-seat night fighter, and talk about turbocharged versions of the BMW801T, which I am entirely prepared to believe never did exist for production.  However later sources refer to a range of variants of the BMW801T, not all of which are turbocharged, and it is one of these which is recorded as being fitted to the A-9 and its 14-blade fan.  

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Graham, I believe you are correct, per my references no turbocharged variants of the BMW 801 reached service in fighter airframes.

 

This "unscientific" description depends too much on Wikipedia, a quick scan of my books, and my creaky memory (!), but the A-8/F-8 used the 801 D-2, and the A-9/F-9 the more powerful 801 S The S was apparently an upgrade of the D, using some components of the 801 F (development version with a multi-stage mechanical supercharger that never entered service).

 

I have a vague recollection of reading "somewhere" 🙄 that problems with the 14-blade fan resulted in the 12-blade one often being retained instead.

 

Nominal power ratings were 1700 PS for the D-2, 2000 PS for the S, and 2400 PS for the F. The S was designated 801 TS when supplied as a cowled "power egg" for the Fw 190.

 

Edited by MDriskill
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We can guarantee that no turbocharged versions reached service, knowing what we know now about the necessary modifications.  There would be absolutely no possibility of confusion with the A-8!  Some of the turbocharged BMWs did fly in Ju.388s: possibly some of the L variants may have flown recce missions.

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If, as suggested, the production of the A-9 was somewhere around the 900 mark, not insubstantial by any means, I'm surprised that even the earlier books and references do not include the variant other than to confirm that it was a project ( similar to the proposed A-10) that was never pursued beyond the prototype stage. This seems like quite a significant omission on their parts, which in Lancaster terms equates to three times the number of Lancaster B.II's built but which are well documented by all sources. Very strange.

 

Regards

Colin.

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Perhaps differences between original plans for the A-9 and actual production versions led to confusion in earlier books. Well covered in more recent publications though; excavating the wreck of an operational A-9 (from Stab I./JG 11) in 1996 probably helped sort details.

 

Rodeike's Focke Wulf Jagdflugzeug has a lengthy description (in German) of the A-9 and associated engines beginning on p.269. A-9 serial number sequences were assigned to five manufacturers (six-digit numbers beginning with 20, 49, 56, 75, and 98), and F-9 serials to two (42 and 44).

 

Appendix 8 in Smith and Creek's Focke Wulf Fw 190 Volume Three 1944-1945 is a detailed list of variant descriptions. For the A-9:

Development of the A-8 originally intended to be powered by the BMW 801 F engine, but because of problems with the development of this unit, the A-9 was powered by a BMW 801 TS. This unit had a 14-blade cooling fan. Fitted with an unprotected 115 ltr auxiliary tank, oil cooler with Ro 20 pressure relief valve, increased 10 mm and 6 mm armour for the oil cooler and container, and a single exhaust system*. Prototype was the Fw 190 V52.

 

* Re: this odd terminology, Google Translate coaxed this from Rodeike:

Whereas in the 801 D-2 the exhausts of cylinders 9 and 10 merged into a common exhaust pipe, individual cylinder outlets were used in the BMW 801 TU/TS engine. Contrary to some previous descriptions, the exhaust pipe from cylinder 8 - the so-called "chimney" - still protruded outside of the adjacent pipes on the TU/TS lower left engine cover.

 

 

Edited by MDriskill
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On 12/1/2021 at 6:21 AM, fishplanebeer said:

Strangely the old Harleyford book on the Fw190 (from which one of the photos has already come) says that the A-9 was never built and the only example was V-34?

Appendix 7 in the Smith/Creek book describes all Fw 190 prototypes, and has further info that may clarify this. The V34 and V35 tested the BMW 801 F engine; originally intended for the A-9, but in the event never fully developed. The V52, with 801 S engine, was a prototype much closer to the production A-9.

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It is not really curious that the A-9 variant was absent or misunderstood in early reference books: for another example look to the Bf 109K, which was built in much larger numbers but still misunderstood as late as Green's Augsburg Eagle book, which was some time later than the Harleyford Fw 190.  There was also late confusion over the Bf 110E-F differences.  Then when you look to rarer types such as the Ar 240 - heaven help you still!  This is without regarding the early German types which were subject to much propaganda bearing little relationship to the truth.

 

As late as the 50s many if not all books were still being written without reference to much more than a comparative handful of original records, and relying on the work of a small number German researchers.  Any mistakes/misunderstandings/lacks in knowledge were simply repeated from one work to another.  This is still occurring to this day in less scrupulous works.  The simple guide is not to completely trust early works, other than for photographs that are no longer available, and be cautious about those modern works that you do use.  

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Re: Smith/Creek's reference to the "oil cooler with Ro 20 relief valve" on the A-9 / F-9's BMW 801 S engine - is that the leaky little gadget we are seeing on this F-9? The 801 D-2's relief valve vents through a small hole further aft on this cowl panel, with no pipe protruding. The Ro 20's pipe is also visible in the front view of the A-9 posted earlier.

 

I'd never noticed this before...interesting, and possibly a useful tool in correctly identifying photos of these late machines. (Also note the "chimney" for cylinder 8's exhaust pipe, clearly visible under the rear edge of the cowl.)

 

D3-D2857-C-0-C0-E-4686-8-F8-B-2-CFA7-AE3

 

For what it's worth, the Rodeike book has this to say about these late engine variants:

+  801 U ("TU" when supplied as "Triebwerk" with cowl etc.) was an 801 D with: oil cooler from the experimental 801 F having thicker 10 mm armor; and same oil tank as 801 D but with armor increased to 6 mm. The new Ro 20 relief valve and its small vent pipe were part of this new cooler assembly.

+ The 801 S ("TS" Triebwerk) is simply described as 801 U "with increased power." Besides the revised exhaust pipes and 14-blade fan discussed above, other sources mention chrome cylinder liners, different piston rings, altered timing, changes to the "Kommandogerat" control, and other minor changes.

+ The 801 U or S was to be used on A-7 and A-8 "Sturmbock" aircraft "when possible." The extra frontal armor would have been appreciated no doubt.

+ The A-9 and F-9  were to use the 801 S exclusively.

 

Finally a note re: the OP in the thread, it appears the 30 mm longer oil tank was planned for the 801 F, but was not used on the 801 U or S.

 

Edited by MDriskill
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On 12/3/2021 at 3:17 AM, SafetyDad said:

Good spot - new to me as well.

And (slightly OT) are those flame dampers on the other exhausts? 

 

SD

Yes they are. "Bookie's Fw 190" web page has more photos and info on this interesting aircraft, including a closeup of the dampers. The page is fairly old; newer references assign this machine to a night attack group - NSG 9.

 

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/440_382.htm

 

Note that one of the linked photos shows "Yellow 10" with a near-identical F-9 "Yellow 11" in the background. Here's the reversed version: "11" in front; "10" in the background. Note 12-blade cooling fan on "11".

 

2-EF69210-F225-422-E-B013-00-BD85-E4-A91

 

Edited by MDriskill
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