RF-4 Differences

[F111Fan]

What are the major differences between the RF-4C and the RF-4B? I have Hase's B and am considering converting it, dependant on what needs doing to it

[Julien]

What are the major differences between the RF-4C and the RF-4B? I have Hase's B and am considering converting it, dependant on what needs doing to it

Most RF-4B's had the thinner wing and different engines, plus a different shape to the underside of the camera nose.

You dont mention scale. If 1.48 then you might be in lust as the 1.48 RF-4B has the wing woth the bulges as you can only make one of the last 12 RF-4B's as these used the wings from a F-4J.

You will probably need different burner cans and not many but the best experts would be able to see the nose differences. I think you get both styles (round & Square) camera nose glazing in that kit.

Julien

[silverkite211]

RF-4Bs and Cs will have the same type of burner cans, the RF-4E has the longer style of burner cans. Most RF-4Cs had the angular nose, I think all RF-4Bs had the angular nose.

People can't seem to agree about the exact number of RF-4Bs that were built with the bulged wing but, at any rate the last ones off the production line had the bulged wing.

RF-4Bs have a different rear cockpit than RF-4Cs, they have the side curtain on the right hand side, due to needing room for the refueling probe housing.

RF-4Bs have slotted stabs, RF-4C have solid stabs

RF-4Bs have catapult bridle hooks.

RF-4Bs have the Navy style main wheels, RF-4Cs have a different style of main wheel, with a finned cover bolted on the center.

RF-4Cs don't have the trunnion plates on the top of the wing, where the main landing gear legs are situated.

There may be other differences, that's just off the top of my head.

[Julien]

RF-4Bs and Cs will have the same type of burner cans, the RF-4E has the longer style of burner cans. Most RF-4Cs had the angular nose, I think all RF-4Bs had the angular nose.

RF-4B's got the longer cans as part of the SLEP upgrade. I think the last 3 made also had the rounded nose.

Like I said in 1,48 the Hasegawa kit is one of the last ones.

Julien

[silverkite211]

RF-4B's got the longer cans as part of the SLEP upgrade. I think the last 3 made also had the rounded nose.

Like I said in 1,48 the Hasegawa kit is one of the last ones.

Julien

Not all of them did, while they had the J79-GE-10 engines, some of them, BuNo 157342 for example, have the short burner cans.

And you are correct about the last three having the rounded nose, so I need to amend my statement about RF-4Bs having the angular, early style nose. BuNo 157350 has both the rounded nose and the longer burner cans.

I drug out my Hasegawa kit and took a quick look, one of the markings is for a rounded nose variant, the other one has the angular one, both have the longer burner cans.

So, as in most thing model aircraft related, one needs to be sure to check sources before building.

Just as a personal aside, I prefer the early style nose to the later, rounded one.

[Julien]

Just as a personal aside, I prefer the early style nose to the later, rounded one.

Yes,

I will agree with that one

Julien

[Jennings Heilig]

There's no debate at all about which RF-4Bs had the thick wing (they were essentially navalized RF-4C's - any RF-4B with a 157xxx BuNo). Here's the whole list:

http://cgibin.rcn.com/jeremy.k/cgi-bin/gzN...4B&series=3

157342 to NADEP Cherry Point Aug 10, 1990 for storage. Now at Havelock,NC painted as 157347.

157343 crashed on landing at MCAS Cherry Point Feb 2, 1973.

157344 crashed near Tokyo due to engine fire Sept 27, 1977.

157345 to AMARC as 8F0340 Aug 1, 1990.

157346 to NADEP Cherry Point for storage Aug 10, 1990.

157347 crashed off San Diego 1990. Both crew ejected safely.

157348 to NADEP North Island for storage Aug 10, 1990. Now at China Lake Museum

157349 (c/n 3892) to NADEP North Island for storage Aug 10, 1990. Now at Naval Aviation Museum, Pensacola, FL.

157350 to NADEP North Island for storage Aug 10, 1990.

157351 to NADEP North Island for storage Aug 10, 1990.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Jennings Heilig

[F111Fan]

Sorry, forgot to mention it's the 48th Hase kit So the nose fairing is included? I'll be building a UK-based Recce Rhino as I have the Xtradecal sheet for Alconbury RF-4C's

[MikeR]

Check the stabilators, you may need to alter them - the RF-4B's were upgraded with slotted ones, whilst the RF-4C's retained the unslotted ones.

I've got the 1/72 Hase B and it only comes with the slotted versions.

Mike.

[F111Fan]

So, dependant on the A/C:

Different burner cans

Different nose shape

New wings

Solid stabilator

No trunion plates

Different wheels

Is that everything? XD

[silverkite211]

So, dependant on the A/C:

Different burner cans

Different nose shape

New wings

Solid stabilator

No trunion plates

Different wheels

Is that everything? XD

Use the short burner cans that come in the kit.

Use the anglular nose (but check references, just in case).

The wing is fine, just remove the trunnion plates and fair over the catapult bridle hook recesses (there should be blanking plates in the kit, if not making pieces from sheet plastic won't be hard).

If you can't find unslotted stabs from another kit to use you can simply remove the slotted area of the stabs from the kit parts, in a pinch (in real life the slotted stabs are nothing but a solid stab that a strip was riveted to the leading edge of to make them slotted).

Air Force style mainwheels

There may be some ECM antennas on the underside of the wing that need to be removed, just ahead of the leading edge of the wing, on the intake trunk and maybe two located at the the point where the fuselage and trailing edge of the wing meet, Hasegawa uses a "common wing" for their Phantom kits, that's why you have trunnion plates to remove and those ECM antennas.

Don't use the side curtain in the rear cockpit, fill in where the refueling probe door is on the right side of the fuselage and add a refueling door to the top of the fuselage slightly aft of the rear cockpit, there should be lots of photos showing it out there on the internet.

I think that should do it.

[F111Fan]

Use the short burner cans that come in the kit.

Use the anglular nose (but check references, just in case).

The wing is fine, just remove the trunnion plates and fair over the catapult bridle hook recesses (there should be blanking plates in the kit, if not making pieces from sheet plastic won't be hard).

If you can't find unslotted stabs from another kit to use you can simply remove the slotted area of the stabs from the kit parts, in a pinch (in real life the slotted stabs are nothing but a solid stab that a strip was riveted to the leading edge of to make them slotted).

Air Force style mainwheels

There may be some ECM antennas on the underside of the wing that need to be removed, just ahead of the leading edge of the wing, on the intake trunk and maybe two located at the the point where the fuselage and trailing edge of the wing meet, Hasegawa uses a "common wing" for their Phantom kits, that's why you have trunnion plates to remove and those ECM antennas.

Don't use the side curtain in the rear cockpit, fill in where the refueling probe door is on the right side of the fuselage and add a refueling door to the top of the fuselage slightly aft of the rear cockpit, there should be lots of photos showing it out there on the internet.

I think that should do it.

Excellent, thank you Can I ask though-what on earth are trunion plates?

[silverkite211]

Trunnion plates, those rectangular boxes that look like loaves of bread on the top of the wing, situated over where the main landing gear legs are located, were installed on Navy Phantoms, due to the landing gear legs being driven upwards on hard carrier landings farther than what the designers thought they'd be and damaging the skin of the wing in that area (in some cases they were actually punching a hole through the wing). The trunnion plates give a little more space in that area for the gear leg to be compressed upwards without damaging the wing. By the way, if you want to see how they should actually look on a 1/48 scale Phantom, find a Hasegawa FG.1 kit , or the old F-4B and look at them, Hasegawa did and excellent job of it on those two kits and I do not understand who or how they managed to overdo it so much on their newer series of F-4s.

Edited May 8, 2011 by silverkite211

[XV571]

To add to the lists above:

As well as the refuelling door, don't forget the light aperture (just below the front windscreen) on the right forward fuselage. The Hasegawa RF-4 fuselage is a mix of both types so it comes with the Air Force receptacle and formation lights as well as the refuelling probe door.

Use the twin landing light transparency on the nose gear door. The RF-4B only had one light as the other side contained the carrier landing 'traffic lights'.

USAF F-4s had arrow shaped reinforcing plates added on the stabilators which you may need to add for a later jet. Ironically most kits' stabs come with these so you have to sand them off for a Navy F-4! Generally if you're doing a Gull Grey/White aircraft or the SEA scheme with light grey undersides, you'll be okay.

Use the plain fin cap - I don't remember seeing a RF-4C with a RWR antenna bulge installed there.

As an aside, the surviving RF-4Bs which originally had the shorter cans can be seen refitted with the long burner cans. There are pictures of the same aircraft with short and long types (157348 and 153105 for example, as well as 157342). I suspect this happened as time expired J79-GE-8 engines were changed out but, instead of being overhauled, were replaced with -GE-10Bs from the F-4S inventory.

[John B]

All the RF-4B had engines with the shorter burner cans when built. Around 1987 (or so), the older engines were swapped out with the newer engines with the long burner on all surviving RF-4Bs. Both thick-wing and thin-wing RF-4Bs made the switch. The engine change was seperate from and NOT part of the SURE (Sensor Upgrade and Refurbishment Effort) program which preceded it by a several years. The SURE program began in the mid/late 1970s for all surviving RF-4Bs.

In order to produce a RF-4C from the Hasegawa RF-4B kit, the following changes should be made (from nose-to-tail) -

- use the earlier "flat" sided camera nose(parts X1 and X2)

- use/obtain the nose gear parts WITHOUT the "traffic light" (parts Y5)

- fill-in the light for the IFR probe just below the windscreen on the starboard side

- perform the aforementioned front and rear cockpit changes

- do not add the intake shoulder antennae

- remove the antennae ahead of the catapult bridle hooks

- use the catapult bridle covers (parts L8 and L9)

- use the USAF-style main wheels (not included in kit)

- depending on the timeframe, use later style centerline tank (not included in kit)

- remove the antennae outboard of the main landing gear

- use only the short afterburner cans (parts T3)

- use non-slatted stabilator (not included in kit)

- Use fincap without the antenna (part N18)

MOST of the neccesary parts are already included in the kit save for the RF-4C cockpit changes, unslotted stabilators, main wheels, and (depending on timeframe) the centerline tank.

Here's a useful link -> Royale Resin's F-4 parts page

Edited May 8, 2011 by John B

[F111Fan]

In order to produce a RF-4C from the Hasegawa RF-4B kit, the following changes should be made (from nose-to-tail) -

- use the earlier "flat" sided camera nose(parts X1 and X2)

- use/obtain the nose gear parts WITHOUT the "traffic light" (parts Y5)

- fill-in the light for the IFR probe just below the windscreen on the starboard side

- perform the aforementioned front and rear cockpit changes

- do not add the intake shoulder antennae

- remove the antennae ahead of the catapult bridle hooks

- use the catapult bridle covers (parts L8 and L9)

- use the USAF-style main wheels (not included in kit)

- depending on the timeframe, use later style centerline tank (not included in kit)

- remove the antennae outboard of the main landing gear

- use only the short afterburner cans (parts T3)

- use non-slatted stabilator (not included in kit)

- Use fincap without the antenna (part N18)

MOST of the neccesary parts are already included in the kit save for the RF-4C cockpit changes, unslotted stabilators, main wheels, and (depending on timeframe) the centerline tank.

Here's a useful link -> Royale Resin's F-4 parts page

That list is very useful, thank you very much

[silverkite211]

Good catch on the nose gear door and the reinforcement plates on the stabs, those slipped my mind, I just had a look in the box of my Hasegawa RF-4B again, Hasegawa give you type specific stabs in the kit, slotted LE and no fishplates, except for the RN/RAF Phantoms Hasegawa typically gives you stabs that have the fishplate molded on and you're instructed to remove them for Navy Phantoms, so you'll have to modify the kit stabs accordingly by removing the slots and adding the fishplates. More bad news is that none of the other Phantom kits have a F-4C/D/RF-4C style nose gear door as a spare item that isn't used on the version, so you'll need to look at photos to make one from scratch, the FG.1 and FGR.2 kits have both style of gear door used on their variants in the box, however neither of them are close to what the RF-4C uses. And I need to make a correction concerning the location of the aft ECM antennas, they are located just outside of the speedbrake wells. As for fincaps the kit comes with the style that you will need, the one that has only a position light on the tip and no ECM antennas.

[F111Fan]

Good catch on the nose gear door and the reinforcement plates on the stabs, those slipped my mind, I just had a look in the box of my Hasegawa RF-4B again, Hasegawa give you type specific stabs in the kit, slotted LE and no fishplates, except for the RN/RAF Phantoms Hasegawa typically gives you stabs that have the fishplate molded on and you're instructed to remove them for Navy Phantoms, so you'll have to modify the kit stabs accordingly by removing the slots and adding the fishplates. More bad news is that none of the other Phantom kits have a F-4C/D/RF-4C style nose gear door as a spare item that isn't used on the version, so you'll need to look at photos to make one from scratch, the FG.1 and FGR.2 kits have both style of gear door used on their variants in the box, however neither of them are close to what the RF-4C uses. And I need to make a correction concerning the location of the aft ECM antennas, they are located just outside of the speedbrake wells. As for fincaps the kit comes with the style that you will need, the one that has only a position light on the tip and no ECM antennas.

I myself have an F-4C/D-could I get someone to do a resin cast of the door for me?

[Netz]

Looks like the nose gear door kit parts (N20) are the same for the "B" and the "C", need to look at a few reference photo's to see if they are different, but that was one area I thought was being missed.

Looking at reference photo's Hasegawa does not provide the correct nose gear door for the F-4B but instead use the Air Force style.

So in the box your ok to use the kit part for the RF-4C.

RF-4B

RF-4C

Curt

Edited May 9, 2011 by Netz

[silverkite211]

Looks like the nose gear door kit parts (N20) are the same for the "B" and the "C", need to look at a few reference photo's to see if they are different, but that was one area I thought was being missed.

Looking at reference photo's Hasegawa does not provide the correct nose gear door for the F-4B but instead use the Air Force style.

So in the box your ok to use the kit part for the RF-4C.

RF-4B

RF-4C

Curt

Actually, Hasegawa does include the proper style nose gear door for a RF-4B, it's on the 'G' parts tree, however they do get it wrong on the instructions and have you use the RF-4C style door that is included on the 'N'' parts tree. Sort of an odd mistake for them to make. At any rate, now you don't have to worry about having one cast for you or scratchbuilding one.

You're still on your own with the stabs and mainwheels, though, F111Fan.

[F111Fan]

Actually, Hasegawa does include the proper style nose gear door for a RF-4B, it's on the 'G' parts tree, however they do get it wrong on the instructions and have you use the RF-4C style door that is included on the 'N'' parts tree. Sort of an odd mistake for them to make. At any rate, now you don't have to worry about having one cast for you or scratchbuilding one.

You're still on your own with the stabs and mainwheels, though, F111Fan.

I'll get the stabs by swapping and I'll get resin wheels Cheers guys, this has been really useful

[Netz]

Sure is, I was being lazy as my RF-4B is boxed up, I was looking at the instructions at Hobby Search, they do have the "B" NGD on tree G as noted.

The "B" to "C" conversion is pretty easy with only 2 parts needed outside of the box.

Curt

[silverkite211]

Sure is, I was being lazy as my RF-4B is boxed up, I was looking at the instructions at Hobby Search, they do have the "B" NGD on tree G as noted.

The "B" to "C" conversion is pretty easy with only 2 parts needed outside of the box.

Curt

Yes, I myself drug out the kit (again) after you had mentioned about the nose gear door and had a look in the box. It's sort of funny, when I first got the kit I considered turning it into a RF-4C, however I already have one that I made up from a Monogram C/D kit and the old High Flight conversion that was originally meant for the Hasegawa kit, I just couldn't bring myself to cut up a rare and somewhat expensive Hasegawa F-4D so I figured out how to muscle it onto the Monogram kit.

[silverkite211]

Something just occurred to me F111Fan, if you know someone that has a Hasegawa FGR.2 kit there are USAF style mainwheels that are (of course) not used on the FGR.2. Then you'd have the mainwheels you need!

[F111Fan]

Something just occurred to me F111Fan, if you know someone that has a Hasegawa FGR.2 kit there are USAF style mainwheels that are (of course) not used on the FGR.2. Then you'd have the mainwheels you need!

That could be useful, thanks