NA Harvard II

[Acky190]

Hi all,

I am looking for a nice kit of the RAF version of the NA "Harvard" Texan, does anyone know of a decent one? I know Airfix do a version that is dated and very basic, Revell do the AT-6 in USAF/Luftwaffe markings etc which is reputedly nicely moulded with average detail but no markings for or provision to convert to a "Harvard". Can anyone advise on other kits available?

[Paul J]

Hi,

The Revell one is basically the Heller kit. CMR were supposed to be doing the earlier fabric fuselage Harvard I for early RAF ones. CMR do another conversion kit for the Heller kit to make a MkII as used by the Dutch etc., which were Canadian built. Academy and Hobby Boss do T-6 Texans but again these are late versions. Aeroclub did a vacform canopy for earlier long greenhouse canopies that required work to the upper rear portion of the fuselage to accomodate this. I used one of these on my reworked Airfix kit(the original Airfix issue!!) The more recent Airfix kit issue was the Heller one too, which seems to be doing the rounds !!

Hoope the above gives you some clue as to whats available in 1/72nd.

Paul.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Paul J

[Acky190]

Hoope the above gives you some clue as to whats available in 1/72nd.

Sorry I forgot to mention that it was 1/72nd I was interested in! Thanks though Paul, it looks like an Airfix version it is

[keefr22]

Sorry I forgot to mention that it was 1/72nd I was interested in! Thanks though Paul, it looks like an Airfix version it is

From what I understand from the limited 'research' I've done on this recently (going to shortly do the 500 sqn one off a recent Freightdog sheet), the only noticeable differences in a Harvard II from the Texan depicted in the Academy kit are the extended exhaust with cockpit heater take off, & the extra canopy framing. The exhaust should be relatively easy to make from rod or tube, & in 1/72nd the extra canopy framing can be done with masking & paint (well, that's how it'll be done on mine!!) There also seems a strong possibility that British harnesses would be used.

I found a couple of good walkrounds, the first has some particularly good photos of the exhaust;

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/luc_coli...ndex.php?Page=1

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/isaac_ge...ndex.php?Page=1

There's also some good info on British Harvards in this thread;

http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.p...&hl=harvard

HTH

Keef

[Seahawk]

I found a couple of good walkrounds, the first has some particularly good photos of the exhaust;

http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/luc_coli...ndex.php?Page=1

Thanks for the link: I'd been looking for some good clear pictures of the Harvard IIb exhaust.

[Acky190]

I have just come across this site, obviously I didn't look hard enough the first time!

[Paul J]

I have just come across this site, obviously I didn't look hard enough the first time!

An interesting site. The 1/72 section is misleading when it comes to the Hasegawa/Monogram one. Neither manufacturer ever produced the Harvard/Texan to 1/72!! And the Airfix one I mentioned earlier that is the Heller tooling is the one in SAAF markings isssued a couple of years ago or thereabouts. The other boxings shown are original Airfix.

[Test Graham]

Sorry but it is not just extra framing, it is a longer rear canopy with extra framing. Falcon do this canopy: I know it is available in one of the US aircraft sets and for a while it was available separately. Other people have offered this canopy in the past but not always correctly, and not to Falcon's quality. The MPM/SH NA-57 has this rear canopy but a different windscreen - and is horribly yellowed on my examples!

Many Harvards were really only Texans anyway, so check the one you want to do if it is wartime.

[Ed Russell]

Sorry but it is not just extra framing, it is a longer rear canopy with extra framing. Falcon do this canopy:

It's probably in the Hiplanes 1/72 Harvard Mk I kit HP7208. It's probably out of production

http://www.hiplanes.com/new/1_72_kits/1_72_kit_list.htm

but I'm sure they are around if you ask in the right place.

[keefr22]

Sorry but it is not just extra framing, it is a longer rear canopy with extra framing.

Well, comparing the photo's on the walkround with the Academy canopy, extra framing will do for me in 1/72nd Graham. Close enough for Government work....!!!

Keef

[Test Graham]

Actually, it's the Government work that has to be very picky and precise, whereas private companies will get away with relative murder if you let them.

As always, what you model has to be entirely a personal matter, but I think it is better to know these things in advance and discount them than learn about them afterwards and regret.

[keefr22]

Actually, it's the Government work that has to be very picky and precise...

I worked for the Government for most of my career. Not what I always found....

Thing is Graham, I've also read that there's no difference to the rear canopy apart from the framing. And for the life of me, as I said, when comparing the Academy canopy to pics of the real thing I really cannot see any difference apart from the lack of intermediate frames. Can you tell me where the extra length apparently is? And where does the information about the IIB having a longer rear canopy come from?

Thanks

Keef

[Test Graham]

Well, I spent most of my time in the aircraft industry working to government specification - and they were very precise, very strict, and only the good stuff passed. Not quite the treatment I get as a customer of private enterprises.

OK, we are talking only about the final rear section. Look at the photo of B50 in the walkaround. That has the early/Canadian rear. Now look at the Israeli, which has the T-6 rear. The original design was fixed, longer than it was high, and had a vertical frame. It meets the fuselage in a flat line that curves up at the rear. The T-6 design was intended to open, rotating about hinges at the forward bottom corner to allow for a rear gunner. Therefore it could not be longer than it was high. It is shorter than the original, has no vertical frame and meets the fuselage in a straight line at about 45 degs.

There are some other variations, but don't affect British Harvards. Basically Mk.I and II had the original rear, Mk.IIIs the T-6 variant. All injection moulded kits provide the T-6 rear section. (Wirraways are different anyway, but basically have T-6 rear with their own transparency.)

[-Neu-]

Sorry I forgot to mention that it was 1/72nd I was interested in! Thanks though Paul, it looks like an Airfix version it is

Don't be so dismissive of the CMR conversion. Its relatively inexpensive, particularly considering the fact you can use the heller kit (or the academy one) that are also inexpensive. Its a bit tough to fandangle... getting the vacuform to sit on the airframe is somewhat difficult, as is masking the frames. I would also suggest getting the Pavla cockpit set as that really makes it look amazing.

I did this one about two years ago (from the heller kit) as a present for a veteran who flew this exact aircraft during WWII. It was a bit of a rush job, but it came together okay. The biggest problem was doing the cockpit framing... I messed that up to the extent I wanted to redo them but didn't have time.

[keefr22]

OK, we are talking only about the final rear section. Look at the photo of B50 in the walkaround. That has the early/Canadian rear. Now look at the Israeli, which has the T-6 rear. The original design was fixed, longer than it was high, and had a vertical frame. It meets the fuselage in a flat line that curves up at the rear. The T-6 design was intended to open, rotating about hinges at the forward bottom corner to allow for a rear gunner. Therefore it could not be longer than it was high. It is shorter than the original, has no vertical frame and meets the fuselage in a straight line at about 45 degs.

Hi Graham,

Thanks for that, I now see what you're saying in regard to the originals. However, to my eyes (& maybe my eyes only!) the Academy canopy looks so close to the Harvard rear section that it makes no difference. But as you so rightly say, forearmed is forewarned & I do appreciate knowing faults in kits that I feel I might want to correct, but in this case I'll be happy with just the extra framing (& a new exhaust of course!)

Do you happen to know anything about what harnesses may have been used in the Harvard II, I haven't been able to dig anything up about them.

All the best

keef

[Work In Progress]

In a nutshell...

(Harvard on the RIGHT dammit, in case it is not obvious)

(sorry, MODeller)

Edited April 29, 2011 by Work In Progress

[Nick Millman]

Be nice if Airfix released an updated version with optional bits for all the variants, including the early fuselage.

[Test Graham]

That's a bigger task than you might think - the wing is different too. The Harvard Mk.I is basically the same as the Wirraway; but for aft canopy, propellor and added slats. The whole NA16 series makes a fascinating study of modular changes, and the many variants differ more than might appear at first sight. Fortunately the majority built were T-6s, which normally don't differ, much, and many of the rest Canadian "T-16"s.

[MODeller]

In a nutshell...

(Harvard on the left, in case it is not obvious)

I think you will find the Harvard on the Right!

T-6

Harvard

MODeller

[Test Graham]

Both could be Harvards. The lower one is a Mk.II. (Canadian build, or T-16) The upper one could be a Mk.III. (T-6). Nice illustration of the difference.

[Work In Progress]

I think you will find the Harvard on the Right!

I won;t say on here what I've just said here, 'cause it would get me banned, but of course you are right and I did know that, honest, just haven't got my Red and Green colour socks on today...

grrrr, nothing like making a prat of yourself, is there?!

[Test Graham]

I managed a one sentence posting with two errors on Steel Navy today....no it wasn't, it was somewhere else altogether!

If we are talking Harvards, it's probably easiest to refer to the Canadian canopy and the T-6 canopy, and just forget the Mk.Is.

[alvin5182]

Gents:

Here is a photo of a Falcon Canopy as used on a "presently stalled project". It is the Academy kit (T-6G Texan) that I am converting to a Harvard II. The cuts for the canopy extension are made along existing kit panel lines and it is just about a straight drop in project.

Alvin5182

[stevehnz]

I was keeping an eye on this threadbut somehow it dropped off my radar. Now that I've found it again, I'd like to ask about the cowelling mounted machine gun. I want to model an RNZAF version, most of which seemed to have or at least had provision for a machine gun mounted to the front right of the windscreen. The academy kit doesn't have that either afaiks so I'm after info/pics that show in close up what is involved. The pics I have found of RNZAF ones are all later ones with the shorter canopy but they also seems to have this provion.

Did Harvards ever mount wing guns, I guess when I saw "provision for one 30 cal machine gun" I always thought it would be wing mounted but now I think they were cowel mounted with the breech accessible from the cockpit.

Steve.

[Silver Fox]

There is a book by a RNZAF ground crew man Wally Ingram called 'They also Served' who talked about is time at Wigram when the fear of Japanese invasion was high and his role was to fit a 30 cal into the 'other' wing for the RNZAF Havards based there. IIRC he said that the second gun replaced the camera gun. He stated that one gun was already wing mounted and never mentioned cowl mounted weapons. I'll try to track down the exact quote.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Silver Fox