what is the difference between P-40D and E ( Kittyhawk I & IA )

[brewerjerry]

Hi All,

I have been trying to find out some info for a long term project, a P-40D ( Kittyhawk I ) from a P-40E ( Kittyhawk IA ).

I have found out the P-40D only had two guns per wing, but can't find which guns to remove from the P-40E, three guns per wing, any links to wing drawings would be great and/or gun access details.

As I understand it there is otherwise very little external difference otherwise between the P-40D & E ( Kittyhawk I & IA ), the P40E base model will I think be most likely a 1:32 revell P-40E, (as I have two in storage).

Also as an off shoot, any info anyone has on the 20mm cannon fit for the P-40D would be very interesting to me to see.

Cheers

Jerry

[gingerbob]

Hi Jerry,

First of all, according to Dana Bell the 20mm option was on the P-40E (no dash number, that is, first model thereof) and fitted UNDER the outer machine gun location. I have this lingering thought that I almost remember seeing something in the wing, so I'm still hoping to turn up more information.

There are good photos of the 4-gun armament setup somewhere. I'd suggest going to Hyperscale and doing some creative searching of past threads. Come to think of it, the "new" P-40 in Action has some good info.

Early production had the top intake end a little shorter than the "classic" configuration, which brought it forward to just behind the spinner. Here's the first configuration:

I've seen at least one six gun airplane with this intake (I think), and a photo during production showing the short intake with British camo, so all of the 4-gun (P-40D/Kittyhawk Mk.I) were probably delivered this way, though I'm not sure if the British ones retained the shorter intake in service. I wouldn't be surprised if many were retro-fitted, but I've also seen photos of Ds later in life still with the short intake.

Hope this helps get the ball rolling, and I'm looking forward to what information comes to light.

bob

[Harry Lime]

Ok, according to Bert Kinzey in Detail & Scale 62 on the P-40D to XP-40Q, the difference is limited to the wing guns and some differences to the instrument panels. From reading the notes, my understanding of the gun placement in the wings is that they were in the same place as the P-40B and C, but the breeches were further back which entailed new covers with a hump to them being needed.

Now for the bad news! I don't have a scanner, or access to one, or I'd happily be able to oblige with your request for some images of the access panels. However, if anyone can help p.11 shows the 2 gun access panel in both open and closed on the D, and p.29 shows the same on the E model.

One further point on the D. It would seem that 4 wing gun versions were as rare as rocking horse poo with only 43(23 USAAF and 20 for RAF) being completed before the remainder were produced with 6 wing guns.

Hope this is of some use to you,

Regards,

Mark.

[brewerjerry]

Hi

Thanks for the replies and info, I found this during a search

http://www.p40warhawk.com/Variants/P-40D.htm

'There were additional provisions in the wings for two 20-mm cannon, but these were never actually used'

the page says there may have been 72 RAF aircraft,( some diverted )

it has a drawing with the D wing as a small inset next to the E wing.

http://www.p40warhawk.com/Models/Technical...20plans%201.GIF

cheers

Jerry

[Terry McGrady]

Hi

Thanks for the replies and info, I found this during a search

http://www.p40warhawk.com/Variants/P-40D.htm

'There were additional provisions in the wings for two 20-mm cannon, but these were never actually used'

the page says there may have been 72 RAF aircraft,( some diverted )

it has a drawing with the D wing as a small inset next to the E wing.

http://www.p40warhawk.com/Models/Technical...20plans%201.GIF

cheers

Jerry

Hi Jerry

The 4 gun Kittyhawk MKI were AK571-90. None of these served with the RCAF .

The first RCAF Kittyhawk MKI was AK752 , All the Kittyhawk MKI were transferred from RAF orders (Direct Purchase ) being re-serialed 1028-1099 -72 in total

They were transferred in batches between , 9th October 1941 and 13th Jan 1942

Cheers

Terry McGrady

[brewerjerry]

Hi

Thanks for the info, so if I have got it straight, the RCAF kittyhawk was the same as the RAF kittyhawk IA, because the RCAF never had the RAF kittyhawk I ( four gun version), so they never had to identify the two types as they only had one type, (a six gun aircraft).

Cheers

Jerry

[HBBates]

Hi All,

I have been trying to find out some info for a long term project, a P-40D ( Kittyhawk I ) from a P-40E ( Kittyhawk IA ).

I have found out the P-40D only had two guns per wing, but can't find which guns to remove from the P-40E, three guns per wing, any links to wing drawings would be great and/or gun access details.

As I understand it there is otherwise very little external difference otherwise between the P-40D & E ( Kittyhawk I & IA ), the P40E base model will I think be most likely a 1:32 revell P-40E, (as I have two in storage).

Also as an off shoot, any info anyone has on the 20mm cannon fit for the P-40D would be very interesting to me to see.

Cheers

Jerry

Here is the P40 D (2 gun wing) & P40 E (3 gun wing) drawings from the manual... I also did an transparent overlay to the left on the 2 and 3 gun layout... note the upper wing ammo bay on the 2 gun is wider then the 3 gun layout... (for 20mm ammo if used on the P40 D 2 gun wing?)

[Terry McGrady]

Hi

Thanks for the info, so if I have got it straight, the RCAF kittyhawk was the same as the RAF kittyhawk IA, because the RCAF never had the RAF kittyhawk I ( four gun version), so they never had to identify the two types as they only had one type, (a six gun aircraft).

Cheers

Jerry

Hi Jerry,

The Kittyhawk MK 1 were the direct purchase A/C in the AK/AL serial ranges. regardless of armament fit, So the 72 RCAF A/C were Kittyhawk MKI

The Kittyhawk MKIA were the Lend Lease A/C in the ET/EV serial Ranges

Cheers

Terry McGrady

[gingerbob]

note the upper wing ammo bay on the 2 gun is wider then the 3 gun layout...

I knew you'd arrive- great stuff, Hume! Is the shape of the ammo access door still rectangular? I hate to complain, but your view cuts it off, and the overlay seems to have some distortion, making it look like the aft edge tapers. I would think that the length (span) of the door might be different, too?

Another thing I've observed is that the Ds often (by evidence of photos) seem to have smooth leading edges. I'm thinking that this is because those photographed were stateside or used for training, and therefore unarmed. I wonder how the gun fairings were attached, and how easy they would be to remove/ install?

One more question, since you're here: Does that manual (or do you) have general dimensions of the wing, suitable for getting the basic outline established? The drawings I've seen so far are not high-res enough to read the numbers.

bob

p.s. The mysterious 20mm cannon still needs resolving, at least in my own mind!

[Terry McGrady]

Hi

Thanks for the info, so if I have got it straight, the RCAF kittyhawk was the same as the RAF kittyhawk IA, because the RCAF never had the RAF kittyhawk I ( four gun version), so they never had to identify the two types as they only had one type, (a six gun aircraft).

Cheers

Jerry

Hi again Jerry .

The RCAF did receive in addition to the 72 Kittyhawk MKI , 12 Kittyhawk MKIA

ET845,847 , 849, 850, 852, 854, 856, 858, 860, 862, 863,and 866 re-serialled 720 -731 in sequence

Cheers

Terry McGrady

[HBBates]

I knew you'd arrive- great stuff, Hume! Is the shape of the ammo access door still rectangular? I hate to complain, but your view cuts it off, and the overlay seems to have some distortion, making it look like the aft edge tapers. I would think that the length (span) of the door might be different, too?

Another thing I've observed is that the Ds often (by evidence of photos) seem to have smooth leading edges. I'm thinking that this is because those photographed were stateside or used for training, and therefore unarmed. I wonder how the gun fairings were attached, and how easy they would be to remove/ install?

One more question, since you're here: Does that manual (or do you) have general dimensions of the wing, suitable for getting the basic outline established? The drawings I've seen so far are not high-res enough to read the numbers.

bob

p.s. The mysterious 20mm cannon still needs resolving, at least in my own mind!

Na all I have is the two pages from the manual, in pdf and there is a lot of distortion in them... so what you see is the best ive got

===========FYI all thanks for these manual should got to "smeagol_to_others" over on www.ww2aircraft.net=============

check out

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/other-mec...ual-7478-2.html

Edited April 27, 2011 by HBBates

[brewerjerry]

Hi All,

Thanks for the info update, I had actually forgottten that I had the manual on my backup harddrive...old age creeping on.....

cheers

Jerry

[JackG]

Late to the party, but recently been looking into the P-40D, and have found this image showing the early style gun ports and blast tubes.  I think the P-40E introduced the second style, but it may have been possible to update the earlier model as the fairing is designed right into the cover, unless there was something internal that required major rework?

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

[Carl V]

Seeing that this topic has reemerged, I thought that some of you might be interested in this information, presuming it can be posted. This is a page from Chapter 13 of Volume 2 of my nearly complete three volume work on the RCAF Curtiss fighters. This will/may be published sometime in the indefinite future. Don’t hold your breath!

Carl

 

RCAF comments concerning the distinctive features of the                                                    Kittyhawk Ia and the P-40K.

 

Note:  the Kittyhawk Ia has normally been defined, and accurately so, as the Lend-Lease version of the P-40E but rarely, if ever, has any reference been made to any differences existing between it and the Kittyhawk I. Quoted below is the essential portion of an RCAF document dated 3 November 1942 describing those differences noted by the RCAF. In addition, on 7 December 1942 the RCAF received a report from 111 (F) Squadron in Alaska detailing the equivalent differences found in their ex-USAAF P-40Ks.

 

3 November 1942.

 

The following changes distinguish the Kittyhawk Ia from the Kittyhawk I

 

Improved blast tubes incorporating circular fairings at the leading edge of wing.

US Army identification colours on all pipe lines.

US-type low-pressure oxygen (one cylinder) with Pioneer regulator and provision for British-type economiser.

12-inch diameter oil cooler in lieu of 11-inch diameter cooler

Repositioned hydraulic header tank.

Deletion of Linatex covering on oil tank.

Rear view mirror relocated on port side of windscreen.

     US-type wireless: SCR-274 (HF) plus provisions for R.3003.

 

7 December 1942.

 

[From 111 Squadron]  … The following are some noted differences between the Kittyhawk and the P-40K:

 

The fin has a different outline.         

The hydraulic charging system for the guns is not installed in the P-40K (hand written note by recipient: it is coming out of the I and Ia too)

The hydraulic header tank is mounted above and behind the fuselage access door in the P-40K to make room for the American-type radio which is installed.

The P-40K's are winterised in that they have 100% closure shutters on the oil and glycol radiators. The propeller is fitted for anti-icing and the carburettor hot air comes from around the exhaust stacks and not from behind the radiators as in the Kittyhawk.

The engine fitted in the P-40K is an AllisonV1710-F4R. This engine is equipped with automatic boost control. It is also able to develop 1350 HP with 120 octane fuel according to the Allison representative.

The oil radiator on the P-40K is a 12 inch diameter radiator as compared with the 11 inch diameter cooler on the Kittyhawk

There are minor re-routing and sizes of vapour lines and oil lines due to the position of the automatic boost control on the carburettor and the 12 inch radiator.

The P-40K's are equipped with belly tanks and are fitted to carry up to a 500 pound bomb.

Provision is made for carrying three 20 pound or three 30 pound fragmentation bombs or three 20 pound practice bombs on each wing

Radio equipment similar to British IFF equipment is installed in the P-40K.

A carburettor her intake thermometer is installed in the P-40K.

The fuel system of the P-40K is treated so as to be suitable for aromatic fuels.

Provision is made for installation of a camera done in the starboard undercarriage fairing. This is not a British type camera. Provision is not made for the G 45 camera done on the underside of the starboard wing as in the Kittyhawk.

Blast tube covers have been modified to allow more movement of blast tubes during firing

Provision is made for installation of a camera done in the starboard undercarriage fairing. This is not a British type camera. Provision is not made for the G 45 camera done on the underside of the starboard wing as in the Kittyhawk.

Blast tube covers have been modified to allow more movement of blast tubes during firing.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The USAAF summary of model changes
P-40E, radio SCR-283 on first aircraft, SCR-274N on later models, de-icing equipment (Ethylene Glycol spray)
P-40E-1 same as P-40E except for minor changes to cope with British requirements, radio type TR9D.

 

There were 9 P-40K-1 operated by the RCAF between November 1942 to August 1943.

The P-40K-1 was the nominal export version of the K series, contract DA-913, 600 built May to September 1942, the USAAF summary of the changes says same as P-40E except for V1710-73 engine and auto manifold pressure regulator.

 

P-40K-5 to K-15 produced August to December 1942, under contract AC-22774
P-40K-5, 200 built, same as P-40K-1 except for addition of rotary valve cooler.
P-40K-10, 335 built, redesignated due to fuselage extension.
P-40K-15, 165 built, winterisation, elimination of emergency hydraulic system, relocation of battery to forward engine compartment.

[Buz]

Not to forget that the Kittyhawk I (the H-87A-2/3) had a blue formation light below the cockpit on both side (slightly forward of the sliding portion of the canopy) and a cranked Pitot tube, the P-40E-1 had no formation light (apart from the first 100 models) and the Straight style pitot of the P-40E.

 

Buz

[JackG]

 P-40E at Dayton Ohio shows the formation light clearly.   The site states the original frame was a Kittyhawk, so maybe these lights were more an RAF requisite than a mark identifier?  Anyhow, sometimes difficult to spot in period b/w period photos as the blue lens can just disappear with the aircraft colour. 

 

https://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/Visit/Museum-Exhibits/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/196309/curtiss-p-40e-warhawk/

 

 

regards,

Jack

 

 

 

 

 

[Buz]

Hi Jack

 

To answer your question not really a RAF thing - as the P-40E-1's are a follow on to the H-87A Kittyhawks (they follow in Curtiss Line numbers not serials) but only the first 100 had them.  As to seeing the lights on photos, 100% agree, they're hard to see, but I've learnt don't look for the light, but look for the fitting, it stands out better (even in the cases where the lights have been over painted).

 

Basically identification features go like this.

 

Blue formation light/Straight Pitot tube/Four Gun Wing - P-40D - Operators - US Forces only

Blue formation light/Straight Pitot tube/ six Gun wing - P-40E or 1 of the first 100 P-40E-1's - Operators - US Forces/RAAF/VVS/Japan

Blue formation light/Cranked Pitot tube/Four Gun Wing - H-87A-1 - Operators - RAF only

Blue formation light/Cracked Pitot tube/Six Gun Wing - H-87A-2/3 - Operators - RAF/RCAF/Turkey

No formation light/Straight Pitot tube/six Gun Wing - P-40E-1 - Who didn't use them?

 

If you use the above as a rule of thumb and then the camouflage you can normally work out what model you are looking at. IIRC the one at Dayton is RCAF Kittyhawk I AK987 (RCAF 1068) - its one of the few I've not had a chance to see IRL.

 

Buz

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Buz

[JackG]

Are the dimensions of the formation light known from technical documents, or any measurements taken from an existing aircraft?

 

I took a close up of a Kittyhawk nicknamed The Maj, and scaled it to match the height between the two panel lines located above and below the discussed detail.  Image was also tilted so the panel lines are running near horizontal as possible.  Scale drawings seem to vary in accuracy, so went with the shorter height, as this matched the 1/72 Scale Hobby kit (which incidentally includes the formation lights).

 

 

Results indicate a lens diameter of 2.5 inches, while the outer measurement of the framework is 4.5 inches.   If the outer diameter is shrunk to an even 4 inches, then the lens measurement becomes 2 14/64 inches.

 

 

regards,

Jack

[BS_w]

3 hours ago, JackG said:

Are the dimensions of the formation light known from technical documents,

 

regards,

Jack

 

doubler plate formation light on D, E, E-1, F...H87-A3

Edited April 29, 2022 by BS_w

[JackG]

@BS_w thanks kindly for that drawing of the formation light.

 

Comparing it to a photo of an operational aircraft, and viewing details from exterior towards lens:

 

 

 

- square pattern of rivets match

- circular pattern of rivets match

- outer frame with 6 rivets match

- inner frame with 4 rivets not present on drawing

 

So if an inner circular frame (with four rivets)  is added, it seems I was pretty close with the 2.5 inch lens diameter, drawn in red over the blueprint.   The outer diameter of the circular frame I was off by 5/16 of an inch - a 4.5" guesstimate as opposed to 4 3/16" on the drawing.

 

 

 

 

regards,

Jack