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Paint Question #2 - SCC2


nheather
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I also have a Centaur to build, and I understand that these were not repainted in SCC15 so were left in SCC2.

This is another colour that perplexes me, because although it was a standard colour before 1944 I've never seen it presented in pictures or on museum exhibits.

So out of these two, which would you say best fits SCC 2 - or are they both way off.

SCC2.jpg

Again, not trying to be exact, just in the right ball park.

Cheers,

Nigel

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I also have a Centaur to build, and I understand that these were not repainted in SCC15 so were left in SCC2.

This is another colour that perplexes me, because although it was a standard colour before 1944 I've never seen it presented in pictures or on museum exhibits.

So out of these two, which would you say best fits SCC 2 - or are they both way off.

SCC2.jpg

Again, not trying to be exact, just in the right ball park.

Cheers,

Nigel

Looking at Mike Starmers book the darker colour looks best. Alternatively get hold of WEM ARB05 which is slightly too light but does give a good "scale effect".

Also look here:

http://www.mafva.net/other%20pages/Starmer%20camo.htm

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/threa...nt+Mix+Database!

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/messa...53/Mike+Starmer

HTH

Andy

Edited by andym
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Thanks for the replies.

My two swatches are as follows

Right - Tamiya XF-52 Flat Earth as given in their instructions for the Centaur

Left - Mix of Revell 84 and 86 (Ratio 16:5) as suggested by Mike Starmer on the MAFA.net site (http://www.mafva.net/PDF/BritishCamouflage3.pdf).

In theory Mike Starmer's mixes should be spot on as he is his an expert in this field and research is very well regarded.

But I have never seen any vehicle presented in this chocolate brown colour either in document or museum exhibit.

I have seen vehicles in a caramel like colour similar to Tamiya XF-52 and your Vallejo colour at Bovington Tank Museum (a Convenantor as I recall) but when I spoke to the museum historian he was unable to confirm whether that was SCC 2 or even whether it was an accurate colour at all.

I am loathed to say that Mike Starmers mix isn't accurate given the amount of research he has put into it. I may have made an error with the mix but both the Revell colours are darker than the Tamiya and Vallejo in their own right.

This is the Covenantor at Bovington

covenantor.jpg

SCC 2 is described as 'Rich Dark Brown with a hint of Khaki'

which I must admit, does not describe the Tamiya, Vallejo or Bovington Covenantor.

So in summary, my left hand colour seems correct because it is the mix provided by Mike Starmer and matches the SCC2 description - my hesitation is that I have never seen a tank presented in anything close to this.

Incidently, where did you find the Vallejo mapping to real colours - I have been thinking of giving Vallejo a go because I have heard great reviews but I'm put off becuase I would have to mail order and unsure which of their colours would be suitable for my needs.

Cheers,

Nigel

Edited by nheather
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nheather your left swatch is too dark you quote 16: 5 mix ratio it should be 6 parts 84 to :5 parts 86 I just rechecked my own mix markings on my tins of mix and on Mike's chart . I have a WW2 colour picture of a Hillman Tilly in SCC2 and SCC1a but I cannot work out how to post the picture or one of a model I did using the mix HELP

TED

Edited by ted angus
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Now I am confused, because the link to Mike Starmer's information

http://www.mafva.net/PDF/BritishCamouflage3.pdf

Definitely says Revell 84 + 86 in ratio 16:5

Where are you getting information on Mike's Chart as it appears to be different from information Mike has posted elsewhere.

Posting pictures - I put my pictures on PhotoBucket and then post using link[\IMG]

I would very much like to see your Tilly photos. If you aren't able to post them it would be great if you could eamil them to me - I could then post them here on your behalf if you wish.

Cheers,

Nigel

Edited by nheather
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Now I am confused, because the link to Mike Starmer's information

http://www.mafva.net/PDF/BritishCamouflage3.pdf

Definitely says Revell 84 + 86 in ratio 16:5

Where are you getting information on Mike's Chart as it appears to be different from information Mike has posted elsewhere.

Posting pictures - I put my pictures on PhotoBucket and then post using link[\IMG]

I would very much like to see your Tilly photos. If you aren't able to post them it would be great if you could eamil them to me - I could then post them here on your behalf if you wish.

Cheers,

Nigel

Nigel much of the info contained in that MAFVA resource file have now been superceded to reflect more recent findings by Mike and others, its now 6 years old, unfortunately the now outdated info has been republished many times on sites other than MAFVA - but as I said much of it is now superceded.. I have the 2010 edition of Mike's "british Army Colours & Disruptive camo in the UK and N W Europe 1936 to 1945. " It has the ratio as 6:5 also see this recent post at the link below . my e mail is ted at golfcity.co.uk e mail me I will send photos to you by reply.

regards TED

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47208/messa...all+together%29

Edited by ted angus
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Ted has very kindly sent me some photos for which I am very grateful.

I said that I would post them here on his behalf, the only change I have made is to reduce the file size to make them more suitable for internet use - just reduced the resolution so no cropping.

RAFHillmanTillySmall.jpg

136small.jpg

341small.jpg

Ted also included this description

The Hillman tilly was scanned from an old magazine, it is slightly darker than the magazine picture; but gives an indication of what we are aiming for. Both the signals trucks have SCC2 as the base colour- yes I know they look slightly different but it is the same batch of mix, sprayed at the same time. The Austin has SCC14 (blueish –black) as the disrupter whilst the Fordson has SCC1A using Mike’s mix. I was in the RAF for 39 years and was involved in managing the repaint of our station’s MT & equipment for gulf wars one & two believe me colours varied between batches. As long as we obtained the desired effect that was all that counted.

Once again, a big thank you to Ted for providing the photos and information.

Cheers,

Nigel

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I have tried the new mix ratio and I am still a little perplexed.

It still comes out much darker and browner than the base in your pictures – quite similar to my original mix but a little lighter and less red.

What is puzzling me is this

Revell 84 is called Leather Brown and is a dark, rich chestnut colour

Revel 86 is called Olive Brown and is quite similar to the SCC2 in your pictures but a little darker and greener.

So I struggle to understand how you can mix two colours which are both darker than the colour you are trying to achieve – and any mix with so much Revell 84 Leather Brown is going to end up as a dark brown colour.

Here are some swatches to explain what I mean

Revell.jpg

As you can see, even the revised mix is quite a dark brown and that is understandable when you look at unmixed Revell 84 and 86 colours.

There seems to be some disjoint to me. The Mike Starmer mix produces a dark chocolate brown much much different to any version of SCC 2 I have seen presented.

The mix seems so off, that I can only think he has listed the wrong paint numbers or that Revell have changed their paint numbers since.

Cheers,

Nigel

Having said that, looking at his Humbrol mix, Mike has 5 parts 98 (choclate brown) and 4 parts 29 (dark earth) which would make the humbrol mix significantly darker than dark earth, whereas the representations including the colour photo above is lighter than dark earth.

Edited by nheather
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Okay, I've looked at Mike Starmer's latest set of mixes, linked above and all three (Revell, Humbrol and Tamiya) are going to produce pretty much the same colour, and it will be a dark chocolate brown as I have shown in my swatch above. From this I can conclude

(i) All mixes are consistent and producing the same colour - so no chance of paint number mix ups

(ii) The colour is massively different to that commonly portrayed and in the colour photograph above. This is not just a weathering, fading difference - they are totally different colours.

(iii) So has Mike Starmer got it totally wrong?

(iv) Were there two different SCC 2s

(v) Is the colour in the photograph not SCC 2 but another colour

Cheers,

Nigel

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How does the WEM paint compare?

It is normal for paint "chips" to look much darker (or generally more intense) than the colour seen in photographs or real life: this is usually called "scale colour" in the hobby. Colours are more intense when judged directly (patch on surface) then when judged from only a few metres distant. (Been there, done that.) Also, colours appear lighter when on a larger surface than on a small patch. The darkening effect of viewing against a white background can be reduced by cutting a square in a piece of neutral gray card and viewing the paint sample through this hole. So an actual paint sample of original SCC2 would also look darker and more intense than how it may appear on a photo.

All of which may help to explain part of what you're seeing, but probably not your "totally different". Hence the request to compare your sample with the WEM.

One possible explanation you missed, and certainly not without precedents, is that the model paints may have changed. I certainly would not trust any historic Humbrol mix, and don't see why Revell should be any different.

PS There was a wartime colour photo of Covenanters on an old Airfix Magazine cover - I don't recall whether they were green or brown, but they were cerainly not that light coffee colour!

Edited by Graham Boak
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How does the WEM paint compare?

It is normal for paint "chips" to look much darker (or generally more intense) than the colour seen in photographs or real life: this is usually called "scale colour" in the hobby. Colours are more intense when judged directly (patch on surface) then when judged from only a few metres distant. (Been there, done that.) Also, colours appear lighter when on a larger surface than on a small patch. The darkening effect of viewing against a white background can be reduced by cutting a square in a piece of neutral gray card and viewing the paint sample through this hole. So an actual paint sample of original SCC2 would also look darker and more intense than how it may appear on a photo.

All of which may help to explain part of what you're seeing, but probably not your "totally different". Hence the request to compare your sample with the WEM.

One possible explanation you missed, and certainly not without precedents, is that the model paints may have changed. I certainly would not trust any historic Humbrol mix, and don't see why Revell should be any different.

I was just reading Nigels last post; and was about to say about small swatches looking darker than larger areas, colour comparison should always be same size samples.

I have tried the WEM it is almost identical to the Air Ministry standard Dark Earth so it is a little light for SCC2 so afraid they haven't got that right.

re model paint manufacturers changing specs it does happen but I use a lot of paint and the Revel 84 & 86 I bought last year are no different to the tins I brought back from Germany in 1990.

turning to Nigels questions; SCC2 was part of the BS 987C 1942 camouflage colours (plus subsequent additions) Mike has an original copy of this standard and there is only one SCC2 . The tilly is SCC 2; SCC 2 it was preceeded by KG3 and superceded by SCC15. both very different. comparing the colour chip in Mike's book to the Tilly you would see the likeness. Tte commonly portrayed colour that we repeatedly see on model vehicles is dark earth, which many model instructions incorrectly call for. Dark Earth was an Air ministry aircraft colour and somewhat lighter than SCC2

I would conclude by saying that an accurately measured blend as per 6 x 84 & 5 x 86 will give you a fairly accurate reproduction of SCC2,

TED

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And just to confuse things even more.

Don't go by the colour picture with the Tilly in as its been over exposed and printed too dark, the colours would be lighter than shown if this error was corrected.

Paul

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Hi,

Ted has sent me some more photos and I think this one clears up the mystery

DSCF0896.jpg

As you can see the colour I'm getting matches the SCC 2 chip pretty well. You can see the two Revell paint colours which gives you an idea of the starting point.

You can also see that the base colour of that lorry matches the SCC 2 and looks very different to how it appeared in the earlier pictures (where to me it looks lighter than dark earth) - what a difference lighting can make.

So in summary, it does appear that SCC 2 is the chocolate brown colour that I am getting rather than the dark sand that is often depicted.

Cheers,

Nigel

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Hi Nigel,

I've also tried to emulate SCC2, by using Tamiya Acrylics and the 'recipie' suggested my Mr Starmer in his book 'British Camo & Markings NW Europe' I sprayed this mix onto a Bren kit that i had been tinkering for some time and it looked nasty!

001-12.jpg

I then decided 'just to go for it' and sloshed paint about for an hour or so and got something what I think resemble's SSC2 (at least to my dodgy eyes) This was blasted onto a Churchill MkIII turret and compared to the first mix.

You can see the tonal diference on the pic below.

006-8.jpg

This was then sprayed onto the model that I was working on at the time. Looks a bit pink in this shot, but thats due to the light in the shed (my excuse and im sticking to it!)

008-4.jpg

And after weathering with washes and pastels it took on a bit of a green tone! :blink:

005-14.jpg

003-18.jpg

008-6.jpg

What i've learned from this exercise is this.....

Trying to mix SCC colours from scratch can have a serious effect upon ones sanity!!! :mental:

Untill someone makes a set of SCC paints in acrylic i'm sticking to Olive Drab!!! :shrug:

Good luck!

Regards,

Steve

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Hmm,The Tilly colours look a bit like the Humbrol RAF Dark Earth and Green numbers 29 and 30 I think.Would these colours be okay or not?

Mike

Mike green does not come into the equation SCC 2 was initially used with an even darker brown SCC1A then with a near black colour coded SCC15.

As already stated SCC2 is a different colour to RAF dark Earth (hu 29).

TED

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@Fatfingers

The end result looks excellent. The first shot of the Cromwell looks wrong though - nothing like SCC 2, though quite like how Tamiya and others like to portray it in their artwork.

So how did you manage the transition because it looks great - just like the famous Centaur picture that appears on the front of the 'Tank Men' book.

As already stated SCC2 is a different colour to RAF dark Earth (hu 29).

Agreed, and the fact that you have to mix Humbrol Chocolate and Dark Earth in ratio 5:4 illustrates that it is a very different colour.

Cheers,

Nigel

Edited by nheather
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Very interesting!Now this might cause confusion,but when the Tilly was used in the RAF (ok,I believe that the Tamiya Tilly was not really the right one) during the Battle of Britain era,would it have been painted in these colours rather than the blue that Tamiya suggest?

Mike

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Very interesting!Now this might cause confusion,but when the Tilly was used in the RAF (ok,I believe that the Tamiya Tilly was not really the right one) during the Battle of Britain era,would it have been painted in these colours rather than the blue that Tamiya suggest?

Mike

From 1937 to 1941 BSC. 381C: RAF Blue-Grey No.33 so that would be for BoB time frame. In 1941 according to AMO A.618 of 7th Aug 1941 they were to be Khaki Green No.3 with a disruptive pattern of Tarmac Green No.4 or Light Green No.5.

And I beleive that Blue-grey No.33 isn't the same as the postwar Blue-Grey, but still need to reseearch that a bit more. And yes Tamiya version of Tilly was not used by RAF.

HTH

Andy

Edited by andym
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Very interesting!Now this might cause confusion,but when the Tilly was used in the RAF (ok,I believe that the Tamiya Tilly was not really the right one) during the Battle of Britain era,would it have been painted in these colours rather than the blue that Tamiya suggest?

Mike

SCC2 as a base colour was introduced to the RAF in late 1942. I have seen pictures of Hillman tillies in RAF service pre april 1941 and they are one colour, the finish is very dull so although it may be RAF Blue Grey It may well be in the colour KG No 3 WEM do this colour it is ARB 03 in their range.

TED

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The prewar/early war RAF vehicle Blue Grey is considerably darker than the postwar standard. This is not from any personal experience, but I've seen it stated several times by those who should know and it certainly shows that way in photographs.

GRAHAM Those that have been able to compare the old BS colour charts with the post war ones do say the earlier colour was slightly darker. The postwar colour BS 633 was in use when I joined in 64 and continued for many years. It tended to slightly fade and go dull, but on vehicles that received a bit of TLC and wax polish it retained its colour and sometimes went darker. Personally I have always used Xtracolour X13 (gloss) for my post war RAF vehicles. It's a pretty good match against my 1990 BS 381c colour chip chart. I also use it for pre 1941 but with a satin varnish overcoat.

Mike Starmer recommends Humbrol 77 and humbrol 67 IN RATIO 4 TO 1 with satin varnish as a decent replication of the older colour.

MIKE Turning to KG No 3 I don't know of a Humbrol mix in Revel it is 361 and 360 and 84 in ratio 12 to 5 to 7 .

If you watch e bay there are some good deals on Revel paints often buy 6 with free P&P you choose the colours and is no dearer than going to the LMS .

Gents although I have always strived for accuracy sometimes you just have to say - well I think that is the nearest I can get and as long as you are happy with the result them fine ! Over my service ccareer I was often involved with deep bronze green BS 24 later BS 224 it is a colour that darkens with age rather than fades.

Paint does not alway perform well and especially in Germany some of the matt green trucks in BS 285 looked pea green after a few months . So don't get too hung up on getting things as they were on leaving the factory even they got it wrong sometimes-- and still do !

TED

Edited by ted angus
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