Spitfire Oil Coolers

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Did any of the late build Mk II's have the Mk V type oil cooler with the full round intake? If so, would any of them be Mk IIb's or just Mk IIa's?

thanks

Mike

[Test Graham]

Logically no, for it is needed for the more powerful engine and in that case they'd become Mk.Vs. However, the b armament was in a minority among the Mk.IIs.

[Super Aereo]

Actually, the "Mk.V" type oil cooler (more correctly a Mk.III type oil cooler, IIRC) was retrofitted on most Mk.II (see the by now infamous colour photo of Mk.IIa P7926).

Edgar did point out a date for this some time ago but i can't quite find his post at the moment. It was one of the factory modifications, however.

[Test Graham]

The date would be interesting in knowing whether it actually made it onto the late production line or was only an update. However, dates can only be an indication. The bottom line, always, is to make a model based on a photograph - sadly far from possible in many cases.

[Edgar]

There were two dates:- mod 367 "To make provision for fitting mk.III type oil cooler" was instituted 14-8-41, with 379 "To fit mk.III oil coolers to Spitfire Mk.II aircraft" (my underlining) following on from 26-9-41." It sounds, from that, as if it couldn't be made retrospective, since it needed some preparatory work, and was not confined to a particular type of armament.

Edgar

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

I was just curious as the Airfix 1/48 Mk I/II says to use the Mk V style oil cooler when making the Mk II. It's serial no is P8088.

I'm also doing a pair of IIb's in 1/72 using the techmod decals. The serial no's are P8385 and P8342. I'm back-dating Mk Vb's to make these (AZ being a bit pricey for me at the mo), so would love to know whether or not to modify the oil cooler intake or not.

thanks

Mike

[Super Aereo]

Hmmm... P7926 was built well before then and it would appear to have the later oil cooler: perhaps the "make provision" was referring to having enough new radiators and their cowlings for the production line and the modification was retrospective...

[Super Aereo]

@Mikemx: I might be pointing out the obvious but the best online resource for spitfire serials is http://www.spitfires.ukf.net/production.htm which was developped from the lists in the Morgan and Shacklady's book.

[dfqweofekwpeweiop4]

Actually it's not obvious to me. What I have deduced from that is, that the 2 Mk IIb's I'm doing are in markings from before the date to change to the later oil cooler. So as far as I can tell, they should have the earlier oil cooler.

thanks

Mike

[gingerbob]

The last Mk.IIs were delivered (or completed) in July '41, at which time they were still trying to catch up with the initial Mk.Vs that had been built with the earlier style oil cooler (the "Mk.III" type not yet being available in adequate numbers). Therefore I find it highly unlikely that any were built with the later oil cooler.

I also have no knowledge of a wholesale programme to retro-fit Mk.IIs with the later style cooler subsequently. Just because a mod existed, it doesn't follow that it was required to be installed on all existing airframes. The earlier had been adequate until that time, had it not? So why would they spend time and money on a bunch of airplanes that were by then second-line? If a major repair was happening I think it quite possible that a new (type) cooler would be installed if available. In short, unless you've got some clear evidence of the later one being fitted, I'd stick with the 'standard' one.

bob

p.s. Obviously if a Mk.II was fitted with a Merlin 45 it would also get the appropriate oil cooler, but it would no longer be a Mk.II! And there aren't as many that made this jump as you might think.

Edited April 1, 2011 by gingerbob

[Fernando]

Hi, all,

In June, 1941, surviving PR.ICs and Fs were retroffited with the Merlin 45, acquiring the rounded oil cooler in the process, according to the Ventura book. May be if any surviving early fighter Spit was so retrofitted, it was the same case.

Fernando

[gingerbob]

Yes, if a Merlin 45 was fitted (after sometime in April '41) the appropriate oil cooler would be too. But if you do that to a Mk.I or Mk.II fighter it becomes a Mk.V and those do seem to have been documented (let's not get started on PR designations- I've already spun out of one thread about that!) Spit the Hist calls it "con to Mk.V" and/or "M45". For those who say, "Yes, but there were lots of others that got Merlin 45s where it didn't get recorded in the paperwork" I've done an analysis by individual record and did NOT turn up Mk.I/IIs that were serving with squadrons otherwise equipped with Mk.Vs, other than the ones that were noted as having been converted. Bear in mind that aside from the Mk.IIbs, these were all 8 gun airplanes, which were no longer what the customer wanted.

I'm quite confident that the occasional Mk.I or II was given a later style oil cooler during a repair/reconditioning, but I find it highly unlikely, and have seen no evidence, that there was a general program to refit them.

bob

[Fernando]

Hi, gingerbob,

Concur. The line "who knows how many more were -whatever- but were not recorded", has me tired also.

I missed the discussion on PR's designations altogether! May I suppose that it developed around whether the converted machines were ever called "PR.VCs"? The Ventura book hints at that in one single line, but nowhere else names a machine a "PR.V"!

Fernando