Giorgio N Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Quite so and somewhere along the line the accountants will start deciding on the balance between how much is spent on development (and production and distribution) and how much they expect/hope it will make for the company and shareholders. Don't know what Airfix does, but in 99% of the companies that stuff is not decided somewhere along the line, it's decided before the whole project starts ! Without having those figures a project isn't even started. Still, accuracy has little to do with financial compromises, while I agree that the level of details does. Deciding not to include certain details saves money, we've seen that panel lines can make a difference in costs, however using wrong drawings instead of more correct ones doesn't make any difference costswise, it's just sloppy research. Mind, this happens to every kits manufacturer, with the Spitfire having been particularly badly treated. Quite surprising for such a famous subject Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Zen Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 LOL at the lengths some people go to defend sacred Airfix and their woefully substandard new kits (and deep inside y'all know it) Then again, dissing Airfix on Britmodeller is like dissing pasta in Italy Its been what, 2 years and they still can't get the surface detail on par with the quality Fujimi and Hase had in the 1980s? No excuse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalkeEins Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 rubbish of course.. the new XII is superb on all counts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenshirt Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I wonder if Airfix uses project teams, like other companies? IOW, a Team of people who must bring together the kit, with 1 person (maybe 2) on each element: - Engineering / mold - Decals / history - Instructions / painting guide - Box art - Marketing - Production - Project Lead (The One Who Brings It All Together) My own experience in this area (mainly through my siblings) is a company decides on a project and then assigns a few people, a budget, and a timeline. They then have to pull it off on time, and on budget. But of course they can and do trade something, somewhere, in order to keep it within the budget and finish on time. We of course, spend much of our spare time finding the utmost detail of each subject, yet Airfix is presumably on a tight budget/timeline. We of course don't want any trade-off in the engineering or mold. However, Airfix must balance that with the marketing aspects. Their objective is obviously the $10 market for their single engine 72nd line. That means slick box art, good instructions, a smart looking paint guide. The kit just has to be buildable for that pre-teen market (I presume) that can afford the kit and is wow'd by the box. It's what got me into the hobby 40+ years ago. Do I think Airfix can do better? Absolutely; and I believe successive subjects are just a bit improved over the last. That "team" is learning. OBTW, I'm the only real Spitfire nut in my local club. Some guys make an occasional Spitfire, but it's rare. I bring one every month and I'm the only guy that knows what is right or wrong with each one (and I DO know and it KILLS me). On the other hand, if I brought in a modern US jet and it had a flaw...I'd be toast. Regards, Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stu Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 I wonder if Airfix uses project teams, ........... ..............in order to keep it within the budget and finish on time. attemptPut rather better than my Still, accuracy has little to do with financial compromises Giorgio, I think I'd be inclined to argue this as I understand it the drawings are done here, the moulds are done abroad so unless it's 100% right first time there's a measure of to-ing and fro-ing to tweak things which costs time and money but I'll leave it at that. however using wrong drawings instead of more correct ones doesn't make any difference costswise, it's just sloppy research. Very true but does anyone know if they ever start with a clean sheet if the real thing actually exists. Quite surprising for such a famous subject Far too subtle a design for mere mortals to copy............... some people go to defend sacred Airfix and their woefully substandard new kits I din't think the Airfix Spit was being used as anything more than an example of a more widely perceived problem but as your've mentioned it Airfix could easily be a footnote inhistory by now. Instead they seem to be pulling themselves up by their bootlaces, admittedly not without their fair share of near misses. rubbish of course.. the new XII is superb on all counts I rest my case. Cheers Stu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dambuster Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Its been what, 2 years and they still can't get the surface detail on par with the quality Fujimi and Hase had in the 1980s? No excuse... Yes but 8 year old Johnny doesn't remembr the 1980's and isn't really interested as long as his model looks like a Spitfire and has a level of detail that in his eyes looks like one of 'your' competition wiiners. That's why it isn't a major concern for Airfix and the like. Oh and did ESCI really mean to get their Harrier super accurate or was it a lucky accident? Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentalguru Posted March 25, 2011 Author Share Posted March 25, 2011 (edited) Christ guys! All I was doing was expressing my frustration at the disparity between the two sets of moulding- Airfix managed to screw both up badly because they didn't care enough- nothing more, nothing less. IF- they had paid a little more attention, they could have had a killer Mk9 (inside and out) and then followed up with a killer Mk1 But they dropped the ball both times becasue they were STUPID- cannot think of any get out clause that would fit the negligence. I would add that IF they had troubles finding a budget for the Mk9, but chose to go nuclear with the outer surface detail, and go cheapo on the internals and canopy etc, I could appreciate that, but to follow it up with a beautifully rigged and internally detailed Mk1, with utter shitola exterior details like something that came free out of a cornflake packet- is beyond belief Edited March 25, 2011 by Mentalguru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 (edited) I'm not a 1/48 modeller, but I will point out that the new Mk.XII has drawn comment on shortcomings in accuracy. It is therefore some way short of the perfection claimed above. It does seem to be clearly better than the 1/72 Mk.IX. Mentalguru: I'm with you. They dropped the ball, and it should be recognised as such not glossed over. That said, what is saddest is that it is probably the best Mk.IX available in 1/72, just how awful is that? Edited March 25, 2011 by Graham Boak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giorgio N Posted March 25, 2011 Share Posted March 25, 2011 Oh and did ESCI really mean to get their Harrier super accurate or was it a lucky accident? When Esci did the harrier the people doing their masters were very good and did some proper research before starting a project. That's why not only the harrier was accurate, but so were the other kits made in the same time (Phantoms, F-100, F-5 in 1/72, Viking and Mb32 in 1/48). Mind, it's not that the harrier is super accurate, there a few bits here and there that are not, yet the outline shape is still the best around some 20 years after this kit was first made. And back then there were a number of articles in italian magazines where Esci was criticized because they did not have certain details (all Esci cockpits have decals) and the reason for this was always saving money. So there we have it: Esci did compromise like every company has to do, however had good research behind their kits and got the accurcy right, at least on the subjects covered in those years. One small point about having to tweak moulds and so on: today with CAD/CAM technology and fast prototyping, the shape of the finished product can be verified well before having to start cutting the moulds. As such, it can be corrected very easily and quickly. If an error makes it to the mould cutting phase, it means that whoever is in charge of verifying the shape is either not aware of the error or just doesn't care. Interestingly, airfix did a good job on the fuselage of the Spit IX accuracy wise, as this compared favourably with measurements of the real thing. They then screwed other parts, like the ailerons. In Airfix defence, they are improving a lot and I hope that the good stuff seen on some recent 1/48 kits will pass down to the 1/72 ones. And please, let's not keep going the whole "a £6 kit can't be accurate/detailed or have nice panel lines". Look at the Revell 1/72 P-1B or P-47: they are cheap, have great panel lines, decent details, and are quite accurate. It can be done ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 For those people who like the Airfix 1/72 Mk I (New tool) Spitfire, we are doing a package whereby you get the kit plus the 3D kits conversion set (full set with decals and 2 sprues) for a good price. Also for Spitfire lovers in general we have the Xtrakit Mk XII and Mk 22 in 1/72 and the Sword Mk Vc and Vc Trop. In 1/48 the Airfix Mk I/II + XII and the Revell Mk IX/XVI. We have Eduard colour seatbelts in each scale for them and the 3D kits 1/48 rotol Mk I/II decals. All our kits and accessories on our website and ebay shop at discounted prices. We also have the Airfix 1/48 Spitfire Mk II built up in the galleries as well as in 1/72 the Tamiya Mk I, Airfix/3D kits Mk II, Airfix Mk Vc Trop and Sword Mk Vc Trop. Please feel free to look, enjoy! http://www.mjwmodels.co.uk/home http://stores.ebay.co.uk/MJW-Models thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I'm just doing the final touches to the Airfix MkIX and CMR MkXII. I have really enjoyed building the Airfix kit and used an Aires resin cockpit with it. Very happy with the end result. Damn sight better than the more expensive CMR kit. I've now bought a couple of Airfix MkI and am looking forward to building them. Sorry to disappoint you. Patrick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfqweofekwpeweiop4 Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Pat the Airfix Mk I is a very nice kit to build, regardless of whatever flaws they may have! I recommend the 3D kits stuff if you want to do anything else with it. thanks Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I don't see why your pleasure should disappoint anyone. We all expect different standards from models, and are capable of gettng pleasure from (sometimes) the most unexpected sources! However, on a newly-tooled model a Spitfire from a major producer in 2010 I do not expect to have to: trim off and reshape the trailing edge of the wing, fill the aileron hinge line and rescribe it, and add a piece of microstrip to bring the wing into line with the bottom of the nose, find near-Matchbox style panel grooves, of the same size and appearance as genuine airframe gaps such as that to the ailerons. I also expected it to have a level of detail better than that of the Mk.I (and even Mk.V) kits of 1974. It doesn't. It isn't a BAD kit, far from it. It probably is the best 1/72 Spit Mk.IX around, but it is disappointing for little niggly reasons that Airfix could easily have got right (they had before) but didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire6779 Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Hi guys, first of all, please excuse my english knowledge, I will try to do my best. I have read all your posts and wondering a bit about your disappointment with the last Spitfire kits from Airfix. Yes, you´re right, none of them is a really "good" model, every one of them has its own mistakes and errors. But, on the other side....if I´m thinking a couple of years ago, due to all his problems in the past, Airfix seems to be gone for ever. Then came Hornby and they made a "new" Airfix, a company like it was 20 years ago. Look how many nice kits they have done in the last 2 years. Their main goal was to bring easy to build plastic kits back to childrens attention, therefore I would rather present their last works as toys. And it works...they have now really cheap models with fantastic boxarts, good instructions, nice decals, and if you build them, they are really looking like Spitfires. Yes, none of them is really accurate, but.... if you want to build a good kit of a Spitfire IX, what choice do you have? The old Hasegawa was also not perfect, and costs 3x more, the new kits from Xtrakit, Sword or MPM are also not "perfect", but for more than 15,- Euros. I have build all three Spitfires in 1/72 from Airfix for my Spitfire collection and you can really build a nice-looking kit for 4,- Euros, which is over all looking quite good. I don´t think that it is possible to compare the new Sword Mk.V, Xtrakit´s Mk.XII or 22 with these kits from Airfix, due to their price and production amount of the producer and I´m personally quite sattisfied with the Mk.IX...you can rebuild this kit into a Mk.VII or a Mk.VIII quite easy and that all for a really nice price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Neu- Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I'm just doing the final touches to the Airfix MkIX and CMR MkXII.I have really enjoyed building the Airfix kit and used an Aires resin cockpit with it. Very happy with the end result. Damn sight better than the more expensive CMR kit. I've now bought a couple of Airfix MkI and am looking forward to building them. Sorry to disappoint you. Patrick Not to create some controversy but I completely disagree with this. I've built both (CMR Rolls Royce conversion IX and a Airfix Mk IX with two Pavla sets), and I nearly threw out the Airfix kit. Trench-like surface details, accuracy issues (what version does the airfix kit represent?) wingroot issues, empty wheelwells, ugly exhausts that don't look like any real exhaust., no cockpit and about the worst decals I've ever seen.... far worse than anything that academy put out in the 1990s. The panel trenches are the biggest issue that does not offer any easy solutions... however you need basically need at least two resin kits to get it looking good. Yeah the CMR Kit is expensive, but it doesn't have any of these issues. I had some build issues, but nothing like what I had with the Airfix kit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Not to create some controversy but I completely disagree with this. I've built both (CMR Rolls Royce conversion IX and a Airfix Mk IX with two Pavla sets), and I nearly threw out the Airfix kit. Trench-like surface details, accuracy issues (what version does the airfix kit represent?) wingroot issues, empty wheelwells, ugly exhausts that don't look like any real exhaust., no cockpit and about the worst decals I've ever seen.... far worse than anything that academy put out in the 1990s. The panel trenches are the biggest issue that does not offer any easy solutions... however you need basically need at least two resin kits to get it looking good. Yeah the CMR Kit is expensive, but it doesn't have any of these issues. I had some build issues, but nothing like what I had with the Airfix kit. I agree with you. To be fair to the original poster, he was saying he built the CMR Mk XII - which I have but haven't built. I have done several CMR Mk IX's and they are far better than the Airfix one in every respect except price. I don't mind the Airfix kit but I did find and fix every issue referred to above which starts to bring the cost and build effort a bit closer to the CMR kit. Of course they are for different markets but as someone who has done a few of each maybe I am a 'cross-market' person! The more CMR kits you have the larger the box of spare bits for fixing up other ones! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprug Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Guys, notwithstanding the accuracy issues, my Mk9 went together well, very little fettling and its biult into a nice model. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thx6667 Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Trench-like surface details I think this is where popular myth has started to overtake fact when it comes to the Airfix Spitfire IX - the surface detail is for the most part very fine, perhaps a touch heavier on the undersides but certainly nothing anywhere near "trench" territory (ala Matchbox). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lufbramatt Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 its interesting how the airfix spitfires come under so much critisism, yet are largely arrurate in outline compared to the competition, yet the newly released xtrakit spitfire F22 etc havn't had a bad word said against them but have huge accuracy issues- nose is about 2mm too short, wintips are the wrong shape, canopy+fuselage are too wide etc. But they have fine panel lines so it appears the shape doesnt matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Possibly because more people have bought the Airfix kit? However, this thread was started specifically on the Airfix kit, so I suggest you take your question back to the original poster. For comments on the Extrakit look to threads dealing with it. As for the faults in the Extrakit one not being publicised, I've seen them mentioned elsewhere. Fortunately, it was the day before I was about to buy one, so I saved my money for the forthcoming AZ example. Re panel lines: I can't speak for other posters, but my phrase was "near Matchbox", which is fairly clearly indicating that I was not suggesting the Airfix Mk.IX matched the worst Matchbox atrocities - but then neither did all Matchbox kits. I could perhaps have compared them to the equally poor ones the recent Hasegawa He111, but fewer modellers here would be familiar with those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Russell Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Guys, notwithstanding the accuracy issues, my Mk9 went together well, very little fettling and its biult into a nice model. Don't get me wrong - I quite like the Airfix kit and you don't have to fix much to get a nice model. http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=51910 http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=52530 And I have to agree that comparing the panel lines to the Hasegawa He-111 is a bit mean to the Airfix kit!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Test Graham Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Oh dear, should I buy a set of feeler gauges and only pass comment if panel lines exceed some limit set by the Airfix Internet Police? The point originally made was not that they were vast, nor identical to one or another example elsewhere, but that they were excessive. I stand by that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) Well, all of the above is very interesting. I'm not a rivet counter etc but whether its Airfix or whoever, to me, as long as the subject is what its supposed to be thats fine. I don't mean that the basic shape looks more like a blob and is supposed to be a Spit or whatever! Yes the AFX panel lines are improving and credit to them for listening. I see that the Xtrakit has issues. Well, for me it damn looks very much like a 22. I can live with the 2mm discrepancy here and width and wingtip shape there. Who knows what drawings or measurements were used. I for one don't really believe scale plans that much as they have come in for some stick as not being accurate etc. So, as long as the kit/model is 98% accurate when compared to photos( the most accurate source)and isn't obviously the wrong shape, span and length to the original, a minor anomaly that isn't clearly visible is good enough for me. As with panel lines there are kits with those that look like a WW1 battlefield system and these are clearly wrong and some don't even exist on the real aircraft! Anyway many panel lines on real aircraft are in fact overlapping skins. IMHO manufacturers mis interpret rivet lines for panel lines. And talking of rivets, don't even get me started!! Trumpy are the worst culprit for these! Take the 32 P-51 or C-47 for example there are more rivets on these kits than the population of Beijing! The C-47 doesn't even have recessed rivets . Take a look at the real thing at Duxford. Sorry if this sounds like a rant its not meant to be, I just wanted to bring things like detail to the attention of all and I'm sure many of you already aware of such things. After all we are all supposed to be modellers and make something from basic parts to replicate our favoured subject. Cheers and Happy Modelling. Edited March 30, 2011 by Paul J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thx6667 Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Oh dear, should I buy a set of feeler gauges and only pass comment if panel lines exceed some limit set by the Airfix Internet Police? Graham, are you actually capable of taking part on a reasoned and well mannered discussion without having to resort to clumsy, two footed lunges like that? I'm sure if someone posted "only pass comment if approved by the Colour Mafia" you'd be the first to vocally complain. You're a knowledgeable guy for sure, but sometimes having to wade past the sneery, crappy attitude you have towards your fellow human beings simply because they disagree with you is a little disappointing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Since panel lines seems to be the biggest beef against the Airfix Mk.IX, look here if you want to see panel detail handled beautifully: http://modelism.airforce.ru/reviews/ru/yak...model/index.htm John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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