Focke Wulf Ta183...

[Pielstick]

I'm just building the Tamiya rebox of the Amtech Ta183 and every time I pick it up I think to myself "wow this really looks like a MiG-15/F-86"

I know that Yefim Gordon is apparently adamant that the MiG-15 was designed completely independant of the Ta183, but I'm having a really hard time dismissing the similarities between an aircraft the Germans were designing in 1945 and two fighters the US and Soviets had flying a few years later... especially with the knowledge they would have had the plans and design data for the Ta183 Yes I know there are the rumours that the Soviets just picked up the development of the Ta183 where the Germans left off and that they actually built and flew the aircraft post-war, but then those rumours are almost impossible to prove. I think in the very least the Ta183 gave the Soviet and American designers a very strong hint what direction they should be going with their fighter designs

So then, in your opinion, just how much "inspiration" - if any - did MiG and North American take from Kurt Tank's last Luftwaffe fighter?

[darson]

I'm just building the Tamiya rebox of the Amtech Ta183 and every time I pick it up I think to myself "wow this really looks like a MiG-15/F-86"

I know that Yefim Gordon is apparently adamant that the MiG-15 was designed completely independant of the Ta183, but I'm having a really hard time dismissing the similarities between an aircraft the Germans were designing in 1945 and two fighters the US and Soviets had flying a few years later... especially with the knowledge they would have had the plans and design data for the Ta183 Yes I know there are the rumours that the Soviets just picked up the development of the Ta183 where the Germans left off and that they actually built and flew the aircraft post-war, but then those rumours are almost impossible to prove. I think in the very least the Ta183 gave the Soviet and American designers a very strong hint what direction they should be going with their fighter designs

So then, in your opinion, just how much "inspiration" - if any - did MiG and North American take from Kurt Tank's last Luftwaffe fighter?

IMHO you are spot on, particularly with the MiG-15, but I suspect both the Americans and the Russians got a massive leg up from captured German data. I mean all you really have to do to a Ta-183 to get a MiG-15 is lower the horizontal stabs one third, but hey that's just my uninformed guess work.

By the way I've always want to do a Ta-183 in Soviet markings and a little dio "Somewhere in the USSR circa 1947".

Cheers

Edited March 21, 2011 by darson

[Mike]

I'm also still not entirely convinced that the Soviets or Americans would be inclined to just throw away anything learned from their studies of the Huckebein. Maybe it just got absorbed into their understanding and came out with a similarly shaped aircraft, maybe it was just the natural next step in jet design - but I do think that there's some heritage there. Heck, even the Saab Tunnan looks similar!

[Pielstick]

By the way I've always want to do a Ta-183 in Soviet markings and a little dio "Somewhere in the USSR circa 1947".

You know what mate I had exactly the same thought last night. I've got a decal sheet full of red stars left over from my Sturmovik and I thought to myself the Ta183 would look pretty cool in bare metal adorned with red stars However, I'm going to stick with my original plan to do a what if 1946 JG7 scheme armed with X-4 missiles.

I'm also still not entirely convinced that the Soviets or Americans would be inclined to just throw away anything learned from their studies of the Huckebein.

Eric Brown says he was blown away by how advanced German aerodynamics were in 1945, so I guess MiG and North American were beneficiaries of all that captured data and research. It's very hard to believe the Ta183 didn't provide "inspiration" for the general configuration of the MiG-15 and F-86, and of course the Tunnan!

[Mike]

Eric Brown says he was blown away by how advanced German aerodynamics were in 1945, so I guess MiG and North American were beneficiaries of all that captured data and research. It's very hard to believe the Ta183 didn't provide "inspiration" for the general configuration of the MiG-15 and F-86, and of course the Tunnan!

It's probably a case of Cold War rhetoric and National pride that led them all to shake their heads so enthusiastically at the time. I wonder if there's any data that's come to light since the regime change over in the former Soviet bloc that could confirm or deny any influence?

[Devilfish]

The Germans came up with the swept wing idea. Russian designers, especially MiG had inklings about it (hence the Utka), but look at US and UK designs and they still had straight wings. Both countries attempts at a supersonic aircraft (M.52 and X1) had straight wings. So, I certainly think that German research was used to develop many post war aircraft. But then again, I very much doubt thats ever been denied.

Didn't Kurt Tank end up in Argentina designing aircraft?

[Mike]

Didn't Kurt Tank end up in Argentina designing aircraft?

The Pulqui II jet, wasn't it? Excuse spelling if that's incorrect?

EDIT: Wikilink

Huckebein's son?

[Pielstick]

Yup he went to Argentina and further developed the Ta183 concept into the Pulqui II. It all got caught up in the Argentine politics of the day and was finally scuppered when the Argentines bought some cheap Sabres from the Americans.

[Mike]

Tell you what though - in planform it just looks like a slightly odd Huckebein

[Pielstick]

Perhaps we can add the Pulqui II to the same list as the TSR2 and CF-105?

What might have been had it not been for politicians (and perhaps strong arming from American manufacturers)...

[Aardvark]

Searching on Britmodeller about Pulqui II and see this topic.

First of all, at the moment there are no studies that would cite Soviet archival documents about the Ta-183.

All of the currently known references to any Ta-183 data captured in Germany are as follows:

1. The article about Ta-183 in the magazine "Krylya Rodiny: (Wings of the Motherland) (90s years) mentions that a set of Ta-183 wings was captured.  And that's all.  There are no references to official documents.

2. Fresh publication from LJ Yuri Pasholok

( main armor expert WoT, having access to archives)

https://yuripasholok.livejournal.com/11788551.html

"The fact is that in the course of work on Ta.183 many questions arose about its design, including the tail.  As shown by the aerodynamic research  in TsAGI after the war, at speeds above 850 km / h, it was not at all zero that the plane tail should be torn off."

So, aerodynamic research probably  was (?!) , but no anything data, photo and other  archive documents! 

That all!

In most monumental book about German influence on Soviet aircraft

"Sobolev D. A., Khazanov D. B. The German trace in the history of national aviation"

I don't remember nothing about Ta-183.

I don't know maybe not all found in archives about  Ta-183 documentation?

 

But in itself, the swept wing is not a panacea.  In this film,

you can clearly see what problems you encounter on the swept wing with increasing speed.

Fragments from 17:00 to 18:44

well shows the problem of the swept wing and the solution of the problem with the help of an aerodynamic partition on the wing, pictures understand without translate.

But as we see on 

Pulqui II Kurt Tank initially did not know anything about this problem. Because on wing Pulqui II clear.

But this  problem on Pulqui II was and decided it only on the fourth prototype with

aerodynamic partition on the wing, but this no help Pulqui II because time was lost.

 

At the same time, it is impossible not to note the common appearance Pulqui II  &  La-168. But La-168 flying first then  Pulqui II.

 

Of course, conspiracy therapists may argue that Kurt Tank sold Soviet the drawings advanced Ta-183 - Pulqui II! 

Indeed, after the war, Kurt Tank was without money and without work, so he met with an agent of Soviet intelligence and offered his services as an aircraft designer of the USSR.

An agreement was concluded with him that he would work in the USSR and an advance payment of $10,000 was paid to him for the move. 

But they say that Kurt Tank took the money .... and bought a ticket to Argentina for this money!

Could Kurt Tank, who as they say was also a staunch anti-communist, be able to sell the USSR any serious developments in such circumstances, the question is opened.

 

I can't find my Ta-183 and La-168 for comparison with Pulqui II,   but  photo this comparison maybe interesting.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

 

[Aardvark]

On 5/19/2019 at 3:44 AM, Aardvark said:

Ta-183 and La-168 for comparison with Pulqui II,   but  photo this comparison maybe interesting.

Pulqui II 

vs La-168:

VK-1 (copy Nene) & Pulqui II 

vs La-168:

Pulqui II 

vs La-168 with VK-1 (copy Nene) inside:

Pulqui II with VK-1 (copy Nene) inside

vs La-168:

 

As we see with same jet engine, La-168 have best aerodynamic & design than Pulqui II. 

If Kurt Tank sold Soviet Union drawings upgraded Ta-183 - 

Pulqui II, why La-168 look as the  best aerodynamic & design construction than 

Pulqui II?

Lavochkin & Mikoyan with Gurevich radically redesigned construction Ta-183? Maybe....but  no one considers LaGG-3 and Yak-1 to be a copy of Me-109, although they were created as opponents of Bf-109, and after careful study of Bf-109 in the USSR.

In any case, until documents are provided from the archives indicating that there are Ta-183 drawings in the USSR, talk about copying Ta-183 is nothing more than conspiracy theories.

But only one fact vs conspiracy  theories.
Soviet Union captured DFS 346. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DFS_346

DFS 346 had a more advanced design

than Bell X-1 

and he could be the first (Miles M.52

is a separate and sad story) to break the sound barrier.

Formally, the primacy in overcoming the sound barrier would be for the USSR, but in fact it would be for the Third Reich.

Of course, the leadership of the USSR could not go for it and the primacy in overcoming the sound barrier belongs to the Americans and the USSR had to develop its own designs, as Bisnovat 5:

But this work was carried out more for the development of new military aircraft and not for records.

Another fact is that all the work of the Germans in the USSR after the war to build bomber aircraft (as examples Aircraft 150 and Baade 152)

that had a fairly advanced design also turned out to be unclaimed

and practically had no effect on Soviet developments such as the Tu-16 or Tu-95, not to mention the IL-28.

 

At the same time, no one denies a significant German contribution to the development and design of turboprop engines or missile.

 

 

Resource photo:

Wikipedia, Airwar, NACA.

 

B.R.

Serge

 

P.S.  I have not yet found my Ta-183.😶🤗

When I find I will try to make a photo comparison with the La-168 and Pulqui II.  Something tells me that I still need to add SAAB J-29 Tunnan to this company, this is where it will be interesting! 😉