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Tropical Sea Scheme on the 'Beest?


mhaselden

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I had the great privilege to visit the world's only Vickers Vincent survivor today, part of the Subritzky family collection at Dairy Flat, north of Auckland, NZ. As it is so closely related to the Vildebeest I thought a few here may like some photos of how the restoration is coming along. This is a remarkable effort, a great deal of the airframe was dug up from underground where it was found in an aircraft dump. And a huge amount of what's gone into this is original. The aircraft flew in the RNZAF as NZ311, but currently wears its original serial number which it wore in NZ for nearly a year before getting its RNZAF number.

P1100453.jpg

P1100457.jpg

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P1100456.jpg

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Dave,

Those are amazing pics. What a beautiful restoration!

Is that a small instrument panel I can see in the rear gunner's cockpit? Also, from where was the interior shot taken (aft looking forward)?

Thanks for sharing!!!

Cheers,

Mark

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Yes the Camera is poked int he opening where the wireless equipment would have been and is looking forward. And yes I think that panel is the rear cockpit panel. See this thread for many more photos, of the event, from various contributors over a few pages (scroll down).

http://rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board...3016&page=3

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Mark. One other point I should have included from Paul is a comment from a reader whose uncle had flown Vildebeests from Singapore and did not remember any blue ones, only green and brown ones.

So although the case is made that they should have been in S2T, there is perhaps a better one that they weren't. It occurs to me that the responsible staff and aircrew at Singapore in 1937 will have moved on by 1941. The staff in place may not have known of the earlier documentation, or could have assumed that more recent AMOs/ADs superseded them.

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Graham,

Thanks for the extra tidbit of info which does place a slightly different spin on the ball.

I agree that most (but not all) of the 1937 staff would have been posted elsewhere but 1941 but it all rather depends on when the aircraft were camouflaged. If it was soon after the declaration of war with Germany, then it's entirely feasible that several key personnel would still be in Singapore.

Kind regards,

Mark

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Yes the Camera is poked int he opening where the wireless equipment would have been and is looking forward. And yes I think that panel is the rear cockpit panel. See this thread for many more photos, of the event, from various contributors over a few pages (scroll down).

http://rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?board...3016&page=3

Dave,

Those additional pics are fantastic. How complete are the cockpits in that restoration? It would be fantastic to get some more internal pics of the interior as they finish plumbing her. Thanks again for sharing.

Cheers,

Mark

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At the moment the cockpits don't have a comple fit out. tehre are some panels fitted but I'm too short to get the camera up there. I hope to keep folowing the rebuild (this was my fourth visit to see it since 2005) and will keep taking photos as it comes together if I can.

It really is a thing of staggering beauty though. No matter how often and long you study photos of the aeroplane you don't really get a sense of it properly till to stand next to and under one. I was so pleased to hear so many comments from members of the forum saying how much they were impressed by the Vincent and some saying they were now completely changed in their thinking of the aircraft. For many years on my forum I have been the butt of running jokes because i think the Vilde and Vincent were awesome. I have the knowledge of the types from many aircrew and groundcrew who worked on them, and had seen this one and the Vilde at Wigram up close. But most people don't know much about them. So I think this trip made several converts, which is great.

Apparently this aircraft has a combat record from its previous RAF career, in Africa or Iraq. Does anyone know more please? Sorry to go off topic from the colour scheme debate.

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K6357 served with 55 Sq in Iraq from 30.12.36. I don't have a date for its transfer to NZ, but I suspect you do! There is a picture of two of her squadron friends in Air Britain's The K File, showing a predominantly silver scheme with grey metal panels as common to Vildebeests, and a tapering stripe on the spats. A photo of a wartime Vincent (244 Sq, May 1941) shows dark camouflage, consistent with DG/DE as shown on the restoration.

Vincents in East Africa show a very odd 3-colour uppersurface scheme, consistent with the proposed prewar Tropical Land schemes. This is discussed in Paul Lucas's On Target Special No.2, Britain Alone, and comes (unsurprisingly) from the same research as that leading to the Tropical Sea Scheme.

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It really is a thing of staggering beauty though.

I have been a Vildebeest fan since I discovered them umpteen years ago. I have a reasonable file of information with which I tried to get AML interested in making one about a decade ago. I'm sure this info has been used wisely and I wouldn't be surprised to see a 1/48 one yet.

However....

awesome, yes... interesting , yes... formidable, yes... beauty - ya gotta be kidding!!!!

Here's another modeller's interpretation of the scheme as TLS.

vincentIMG_3858.jpg

Not adequately referenced as yet, but I'm chasing up sources for this and the one I posted earlier.

Edited by Ed Russell
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This model is based on a profile from Paul Lucas's book Britain Alone, referenced above. It shows a Vincent in the prewar scheme LT4, based at Aden.

(If it comes from an independent source, so much the better, but it would be great to know what!)

Edited by Graham Boak
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I don't have a date for its transfer to NZ, but I suspect you do!

Thanks Graham. I don't know when it left the RAF but it arrived at Auckland aboard the vessel Gamaria on the 17th of July 1939.

Have any of you guys built the Kiwi Resins Vildebeest kit? Dave Lochead was planning to do a 1/48th scale version after the release of several 1/72nd variants which were released, but it seems to have all gone cold on the bigger version. I am wondering if this AML kit everyone mentions is based on the Kiwi Resins mouldings? I know Dave sold off some of the range of moulds he had.

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Current state of kits

1/72 Contrail - Been produced long ago. I have seen it - I have seen several more than acceptable models made from it with a fair degree of effort.

1/72 Kiwi Resins - Been produced - I have seen it - I would think an acceptable model could be made with a huge effort but I haven't seen one. I have passed one on to a top class master modeller but I don't think he has tackled it yet.

1/72 Azur (CMK) - Due for release soon - preliminary shots look promising.

1/72 A-Z - Announced some time ago, research finished but no progress reports since then.

1/48 Contrail ??? I haven't seen anything but mentions of one - does it exist?

AML - They only thought about it! It would have been in 1/72 for sure.

I seriously doubt the CMK one is based on the Kiwi Resins one!

Have any of you guys built the Kiwi Resins Vildebeest kit? Dave Lochead was planning to do a 1/48th scale version after the release of several 1/72nd variants which were released, but it seems to have all gone cold on the bigger version. I am wondering if this AML kit everyone mentions is based on the Kiwi Resins mouldings? I know Dave sold off some of the range of moulds he had.
Edited by Ed Russell
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Did a quick search for the Vickers Vincent and found this slightly cropped image from an 8 Sqn website which I thought was interesting given the contrast on the Far East Vildebeests. I believe the Vincent scheme has been interpreted as Dark Earth and Mid-Stone.

vincent_camo_lg.jpg

Edited by mhaselden
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So both No. 8 Squadron RAF and No. 8 Squadron RNZAF flew the Vincent? It would be interesting to see if any indivdual aircraft were on both units.

Does anyone here know how many Vickers Vincents served in Singapore with No. 100 Squadrons? The only one I'm aware of is K4125 (later NZ319) which served with No. 100 Squadron in Singapore before coming to New Zealand.

Vildebeests NZ119 (K6401) and NZ133 (K6395) also served in Singapore with No. 100 Squadron before coming to NZ.

When New Zealand's Government purchased the second-hand Vildebeests they declined the additional cost of the torpedo equipment and that was removed. Does anyone know if that equipmentfrom those aeroplanes was used on another type of aircraft? Or was it all reduced to produce?

I discovered this week that apart from the first twelve Vildebeest III's that were built to a New Zealand order, all the subsequent Vildebeests we bought second hand were in fact identical to the Vincent. There's a legend the tail between the two types is different but this only applied to NZ101 to NZ112. So I wonder why they even called the GR version a Vincent when it was identical to the Vilde but minus the fitment of a torpedo release. Odd.

Edited by Dave Homewood
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The naming conventions prewar were individual to each role. So an aircraft required a new name when a modified design was produced for a new role. Another example would be the Hart, which with little difference became the Audax, Osprey, Demon and Hartbeeste, plus others. The Fairey Gordon was also (I think this is right) the Seal. The Vildebeeste seems to have got in under a convention for wild animal names (see also Hart, Wapiti) as a light bomber, perhaps, but the General Purpose Vincent and Gordon were named after historical military figures. Army Co-operation aircraft from classic sources, larger bombers after towns in the Empire. Fighters were expected to have agressive names.

It was then up to the manufacturer to find a suitable name that was alliterative (as most wanted) and get it approved by the Ministry. This lead to a number of ingenious options - the Battle is named after the small town near Hastings, Wellington is the NZ town but also the great general - Wellesley is a bit of a hint there!

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Did a quick search for the Vickers Vincent and found this slightly cropped image from an 8 Sqn website which I thought was interesting given the contrast on the Far East Vildebeests. I believe the Vincent scheme has been interpreted as Dark Earth and Mid-Stone.

vincent_camo_lg.jpg

Interesting - the roundel/lack of fin flash would date it to between October 39 and April 40 (Assuming the Orders were applied). My own thoughts on seeing the picture were Dark Green and Dark Earth.

Looking through the AMOs again, which s interesting, but I have to do some real work, so more leter!

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This is certainly the aircraft, and presumably the photograph, that inspired the representation of the LT4 scheme in Britain Alone. In which case the lighter colours would be Red Sand and Light Sea Green.

There does seem to be fewer colour changes along the fuselage than one would expect for an aircraft this size in just two colour uppersurfaces. Beyond that .....

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Thanks Graham, I had forgotten that the RAF had specific conventions for the names of aircraft in certain roles. That explains the name change on an identical airframe.

Wellington is the NZ town but also the great general

Wellington in New Zealand is a major city, and the capital of the couintry. People from down there would frown upon you calling it a town, hehe. However this topic was discussed on the FlyPast forum a year or two back and the concensus reckoned the aircraft was named after a town called Wellington in the UK, not the city in NZ, sadly.

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Hey Alan,

I have both books at home so will check them out.

My reply will have to wait until Sunday (next day at work) as my home interweb is down at the moment.

Sorry - bit late but here goes:

No information on Singapore Schemes in Warren P Russell's book

The following information comes from The Golden Age of NZ Flying Boats by Paul Harrison:

Notes plus an ExtraColour Cross Reference Chart

Short Singapore III

"When these flying boats were taken over at Seletar, they were painted in standard RAF Coastal Command scheme of the period: upper wing surfaces, hull and floats Dark Sea Grey and Extra Dark Slate Grey. The undersurfaces were painted Sky Blue.

The roundels were Type B upper mainplane, Type A under the lower wings and Type A1 on the fuselage. RAF standard fin flash were carried on the outer surfaces of the outboard fins (see Robertson 1966).

Standard serial numbers in eight inch black were painted high on the rear fuselage under the tailplane.

The squadron codes ‘OT’ were issued after arrival in Fiji. This and individual letters were painted in Sky Grey.

Individual letters allocated to the aircraft were K6912:A, K6917:B, K6918:C."

ExtraColour Cross-reference Chart for Singapore III

Upper Surfaces: X 25 Dark Slate Grey, X5 Extra Dark Slate Grey

Fuselage: X 25 Dark Slate Grey, X5 Extra Dark Slate Grey

Lower Surfaces: X7 Sky Blue

Roundels / Fin Flash: X11 Identification Yellow, X30 Roundel Blue, White, X31 Post Office Red

Serial: X 12 Black

Codes: Sky Grey

Hope this helps

Tony

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This sounds like it might be the source of those Torpdeo photos!

http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/F01491

A Ministry of Information film produced by British Movietone News. Covers the defences of the British Empire in the East. Singapore and its importance as a naval base. Aden which guards the enterance to the Red Sea with its coastal artillery. Egypt and the Australian soldiers serving there. South Africans in Kenya. Fiji and and its prosperity under British Rule. Hong Kong and the construction of new gun implacements. Malaya and training troops for jungle warfare. The Malaya Regiment and Indian Anti-Aircraft Batteries. The film states that Singapore is well equipped and prepared. Sir Brooke-Popham Commander in Chief of the Far East. Vickers Vildebeest torpedo bomber biplanes practise a torpedo drop

Price for personal use is 60$AUS !

You can register and view a small version on the Movietone website - the story number is 41168.

Interestingly, it opens with OTU Blenhiems from the previous film but ends before we get to the torpedo dropping!!

http://www.movietone.com/N_POPUP_Player.cf...p;assetno=75678

Mark, I take it you've seen the various Buffalo films on there?? Taken air to air from a Blenhiem with light tail leading edges!!

Stories 41634 and 41634/2

Edited by Dave Fleming
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Found another which has the film

http://www.movietone.com/N_POPUP_Player.cf...p;assetno=86976

Singapore I - Wings Over Singapore

Story No: 38653

Aerial shots of Singapore as Blenheim Bombers fly in formation over it. Shots of the planes over the airport. Native troops man 4.7 anti-aircraft guns and blaze away at a sleeve target towed from an aeroplane. Mine sweeping patrols are handled by Malayans and Vickers "Vildebeest" planes drop aerial torpedoes.

The pics are almost definitely stills from this video!

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Sorry - bit late but here goes:

No information on Singapore Schemes in Warren P Russell's book

The following information comes from The Golden Age of NZ Flying Boats by Paul Harrison:

Notes plus an ExtraColour Cross Reference Chart

Short Singapore III

"When these flying boats were taken over at Seletar, they were painted in standard RAF Coastal Command scheme of the period: upper wing surfaces, hull and floats Dark Sea Grey and Extra Dark Slate Grey. The undersurfaces were painted Sky Blue.

The roundels were Type B upper mainplane, Type A under the lower wings and Type A1 on the fuselage. RAF standard fin flash were carried on the outer surfaces of the outboard fins (see Robertson 1966).

Standard serial numbers in eight inch black were painted high on the rear fuselage under the tailplane.

The squadron codes ‘OT’ were issued after arrival in Fiji. This and individual letters were painted in Sky Grey.

Individual letters allocated to the aircraft were K6912:A, K6917:B, K6918:C."

ExtraColour Cross-reference Chart for Singapore III

Upper Surfaces: X 25 Dark Slate Grey, X5 Extra Dark Slate Grey

Fuselage: X 25 Dark Slate Grey, X5 Extra Dark Slate Grey

Lower Surfaces: X7 Sky Blue

Roundels / Fin Flash: X11 Identification Yellow, X30 Roundel Blue, White, X31 Post Office Red

Serial: X 12 Black

Codes: Sky Grey

Hope this helps

Tony

Just a note that Xtracolor X7 is Sky, not Sky Blue.

John

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In post #42 I photographed a model at Model Expo 2009. I have been in touch with the builder and he sent me the source of his information, which I have scanned. The article is titled "The Weybridge Beast" by Harry Woodman and is in a magazine that neither of us can identify.

Amongst several profiles, the article contains this one - the source for the model. The screed on the base of the model in that photograph, mentioning the "Land Temperate Scheme", is taken directly from the article.

Vildebeest_painting_02.jpg

I am sure someone will be able to identify the magazine the article was in.

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Thanks for all the video clips folks. I wandered around the Movietone website and found a short clip which actually showed the torpedo drops:

Singapore I - Wings Over Singapore

The film was dated 1 April 1940 and shows the Vildebeests in their camouflage, although the underside colour is still not discernable. It would be useful to get a really good-quality version of the clip to see if any other details can be obtained.

Ed,

Thanks for sharing the pic that was the source for the excellent Vildebeest model. Interesting that it wears the RA codes but pics have been published in 'Bloody Shambles' which indicate 100 Sqn carried the code letters NK during this period. Perhaps unsurprisingly 36 Sqn's codes are not recognised as OE in the sources I have available (which, sadly, does not include 'Combat Codes').

Cheers,

Mark

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I went to see Don MacKenzie today - he's the wartime RNZAF pilot that had the two photos that I scanned of the Vildebeests dropping torpedoes that you've all found very fascinating. The good news is I discovered he had one more shot! It was omly a photocopy this time ratehr than a nice print but it has scanned up nicely considering. This time the aircraft is K4167, again from No. 36 Squadron by the look of it.

Vilde2.jpg

And a closer look at the aircraft...

Vilde1.jpg

Now the bad news. The reason I went to see him is I had hoped to photograph Don's Flying Logbooks and get all the details of his days in Singapore and Ceylon on the Vildebeest. However when i arrived he told me the sad tail that when he was posted from India to the UK one of his kitbags never arrived. He waited at the depot for 24 hours but it had disappeared, and inside it of course was his first Flying Logbook. Bugger! He had however packed his second logbook in another bag and he still has it, which includes some Ceylon flying, and his time in India and the UK. So i did get to photograph that. But sadly the Singapore days and the bulk of his Ceylon flying are lost to history. I will go through the photos and post anything of interest that I manage to find.

Edited by Dave Homewood
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