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Tropical Sea Scheme on the 'Beest?


mhaselden

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Getting back to the RNZAF Vildebeests and Vincents regarding the white paint question, I have now got more information. I had queried my mate 'Barf' Bosher at the Air Force Museum of New Zealand, who is the paint scheme expert there, and he agreed that the photo of the Vincent with the tractor and bowser did look white but was not sure either. He passed query on to someone in the restoration department and I think he also checked the archives, and today I received a reply from the museum, thus:

"Hi Dave,

From our records pics etc there is no evidence that RNZAF Vildebeest were ever painted white. It seems that it is simply a trick of the light on the silver finish. The best way to tell is if there are roundels showing in the photo then comparing the tone of the fabric next to it, we know the roundel has white so any tone difference means that the fabric colour is silver.

The reflected light from the silver can also wash out other colours so they appear lighter & brighter than normal.

The "light grey" paint showing on the earlier photos is also a no go. These panels, spats etc were in fact anodised. It is this anodising that appears light grey ( very close match to Fed Standard "light gull grey"). We have several items here that have this still in very good condition. However, in later years, as the aircraft aged, corrosion ground out or the item patched, the panels were overpainted with whatever scheme was in vogue at that time, so eventually they were painted silver. Hope this clears a few things up"

My apologies for any confusion caused, but I think this pretty much clears that one up.

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Hi Dave,

No need to break out the sackcloth and ashes. We're all learning, and it's often by asking questions that may be derided by "so-called" experts that we, as a group, come to discover hidden gems of knowledge and wisdom. It's all cool. B)

Cheers,

Mark

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  • 3 weeks later...

As an aside to those views of the tailplane posted by Shamus on the rnzaf.proboards site. The first shot seems to show two shades of green as the camo, but the next two a very definitely DG/DE, yet the shades of blue & red in the roundels & fin flash are very little different. What could we possibly be 'sposed to make of this? ;) Other than of cousre IMHO how difficult the interpretation of colour from photos can be.

I've just ordered a Vildebeest kit so I guess that means I'll have to read this thread all over again before I can decide what colours I should use. I must say the couple of builds on here in the later Singapore colours as built from kit instructions look OK to me.

Steve.

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The colours on the Vincent are definately the normal Dark Earth/Dark Green camo. That first photo is affected by the green coloured skylights that are in that hangar. They always affect the camera which picks up the green light in the hangar much more than the naked eye does when you're in there. Note the white Fletcher in the background also looks green! As does the floor and the bare aluminum on the Hind. As for the colour of the red and blue on the markings, it's just the light I think. So yes, you make a good point about trting to interpret colours from old black and white photos when we may not be aware of the lighting conditions in real life.

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The readers may be interested in this.

Back in the late 1960s I used to chat air and ground crews about aircraft types and their colours. Now having just read through this thread on the Vildebeast colours, I recall the following.

In 1969 where I worked, ex-LAC William Broomfield had been a fitter with 36 Sq. at Singapore on Vildebeasts. I made some notes at the time, they cannot be found now which niggles me a lot. Asked about their colours he told me that up to when the war started, he didn't specify 1939 or 1941 and if I asked I have forgotten, they were 'silver' but then they painted the aircraft green and I think brown on top. He was definite about the green. He thought that the underneath wasn't repainted. He did not recall any changes to roundels either. Not much help but of interest to me since I had expected a grey to have been used on top. After the Japanese attacks and both 36 & 100 squadron losses, the units combined for a while. A bit later the surviving aircraft were flown out, he thought to Ceylon but perhaps Java. He eventually boarded a ship and rejoined 36 in Ceylon in 1942. Not much help but history none the less.

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Just a reminder that the Vildebeest photos I have put up of the No. 36 Squadron aircraft dropping torpedoes, in camouflage, they would all have been taken before Japan entered the war, because Don who I got them from was posted to Ceylon well before the attacks on Singapore began. So your informant was probably referring to 1939 as the start of the war.

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The readers may be interested in this.

Back in the late 1960s I used to chat air and ground crews about aircraft types and their colours. Now having just read through this thread on the Vildebeast colours, I recall the following.

In 1969 where I worked, ex-LAC William Broomfield had been a fitter with 36 Sq. at Singapore on Vildebeasts. I made some notes at the time, they cannot be found now which niggles me a lot. Asked about their colours he told me that up to when the war started, he didn't specify 1939 or 1941 and if I asked I have forgotten, they were 'silver' but then they painted the aircraft green and I think brown on top. He was definite about the green. He thought that the underneath wasn't repainted. He did not recall any changes to roundels either. Not much help but of interest to me since I had expected a grey to have been used on top. After the Japanese attacks and both 36 & 100 squadron losses, the units combined for a while. A bit later the surviving aircraft were flown out, he thought to Ceylon but perhaps Java. He eventually boarded a ship and rejoined 36 in Ceylon in 1942. Not much help but history none the less.

Mike,

Thanks for your contribution. It's the first comment we've had related to someone who was actually there. The reference to Dark Green (and possibly brown) matches at least some other interpretations of the camo applied to the Vildebeest. Unfortunately, it doesn't explain the difference between the high contrast and low contrast schemes that are indicated by the available photographs. We could easily be seeing Dark Green on both schemes, with the contrast resulting from Light Earth and Dark Earth paint applications but this is pure speculation on my part.

Cheers,

Mark

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We could easily be seeing Dark Green on both schemes, with the contrast resulting from Light Earth and Dark Earth paint applications but this is pure speculation on my part.

I would say that this is the hypothesis that best fits the available evidence.

However the more magazine and internet builds that follow the Azur instructions, the more "the man in the street" or maybe the "person on the net" is going to be convinced that the very cute green and blue scheme is the one to go for.

Someone told me not that long ago about the "Millipede" - apparently a red fuselage Mustang ...... (:>)

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Unless and until someone comes up with something better, I think it's the best match for the available evidence. Perhaps someone (Paul Lucas?) will find some new information in the files at Kew but until then...

I'm still interested in thoughts about the differing modes of torpedo carriage seen in some of these Vildebeest pics, and any other oddities that have been noted as we've pondered the subject-matter.

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Unless and until someone comes up with something better, I think it's the best match for the available evidence. Perhaps someone (Paul Lucas?) will find some new information in the files at Kew but until then...

I'm still interested in thoughts about the differing modes of torpedo carriage seen in some of these Vildebeest pics, and any other oddities that have been noted as we've pondered the subject-matter.

I had another look at the picture of K4599 in Combat Codes in pre-war silver, with red/blue roudels and VU-J codes (and found a larger copy in an old 'History of the RAF' book from the 80s) - the forward torpedo crutch definitley is lowered on iit as it drops the torpedo - I wonder if it was a device that lowered at the point of launch?

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I had another look at the picture of K4599 in Combat Codes in pre-war silver, with red/blue roudels and VU-J codes (and found a larger copy in an old 'History of the RAF' book from the 80s) - the forward torpedo crutch definitley is lowered on iit as it drops the torpedo - I wonder if it was a device that lowered at the point of launch?

I'm just not seeing any mechanism within the torpedo crutch for doing the raising and lowering unless it's internal and the entire crutch gets pulled up into the fuselage (which I doubt because it would hamper aircrew movement).

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  • 4 weeks later...

I just wanted to let you all know that yesterday I visited Colin Gardner at his home in Tauranga. Colin was a pilot with No. 100 Squadron during the siege of Singapore and he flew on the ill fated Endau raid - I think perhaps other then Ron Reid who also lives in Tauranga, Colin may be the last survivor of the raid. Am I right?

Colin is 94, and lives in a retirement village with carers, and sadly his memory is very sketchy so I do not have any more detail to add to this thread in terms of the colours of the aeroplanes. He let me look at his photo albumbs and though there were a few wartime shots of him in uniform, there were none of aeroplanes apart from a Moth at Taieri, Dunedin where he learned to fly in 1937.

He did tell me he saw an advert in the newspaper for men to join the RAF, and heard that they preferred people with A Licences already so he did his basic flight training at Taieri before getting a job as a waiter ona ship and working his passage to London around 1937-38. He stayed there with friends from NZ who had a flat in london while he went through the recruitment process. He was accepted for a Short Service Commission with the RAF and was sent to Montrose, Scotland where he trained in Tiger Moths. When they considered hi trained, the RAF sent him to London to buy a uniform (I have heard of other pre-war kiwis doing their training in civvies and only kitted out when they passed the course, so this seems to all ring true).

Once he'd got his wings he said the RAF decided to post him to the Fleet Air Arm and he found himself about the aircraft carrier HMS Furious, flying Swordfish. I think he said he thought the squadron was No. 817 Squadron.

He told me the ship seemed to go all round the world but he wasn't specific as to where and when. He said the ship then docked at Singapore and he was offloaded and continued flying Swordfish from Seletar there with the FAA. I don't know if it was the same squadron. This posting to Singapore was all before the war there began.

At some point, and he is not specific as to when, he then joined No. 100 Squadron. He seemed to think the war was a bit of a doddle and they had little part in it, but he did talk about the fact that he'd been flying in Singapore for about 2 to 3 years before the Japanese began to attack and he knew every little landing field and geographical location and so felt he had a strong home team advantage. He talked about making several night raids on Japanese troops and airfields they were triyng to establish on the Malayan Peninsular, and he also talked about the Endau Raid, but in very little detail compared to what Ron Reid had told me sadly, as he simply was very vague on it all.

Unlike Ron who escaped Singapore to Indonesia and was captured, Colin escaped all the way to Australia, he says, eventually making it to Fremantle or Perth, he couldn't remember which, and then he went from there to India and he said he continued to fly Vildebeests in India. He was in India for the rest of his war I believe but he was really vague on that.

Unfortunately he didn't know where his logbiik is, but he suspects it is at his other house in Dunedin, along with other Air Force papaers and maybe photos.

So as I say, little to add, and it was sad to see his memory is not in good health at all, but it was a great privilege to meet such a hero, perhaps a forgotten hero at that.

Edited by Dave Homewood
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Hi Dave,

Thanks for adding this to the thread. All the crews who flew on the Endau Raid are heroes in my book even if the rest of the world has forgotten them and their exploits. I equate it to the Charge of the Light Brigade for the sheer courage shown by those, whether they "reasoned why" or not, got on and did the job, and many of whom paid the ultimate sacrifice.

One question for you...would either Colin or Ron be able to describe the direction they flew to their target(s) at Endau? As I understand it, a number of Japanese vessels were sitting a mile or two off-shore but it's not very clear from the accounts whether they were the targets or were there other vessels closer in, perhaps in the river estuary itself? If you have any insights into this fairly fundamental question, I'd very much appreciate it.

Kind regards,

Mark

Edited by mhaselden
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That should read No. 811 Squadron on HMS Furious, not No. 817 Sqn as I'd written.

Mark I definately was not able to get such detail from Colin, his memory is pretty shot and I really only got basic outlines from him. Though Ron's memory is better, I don't recall him talking about directions. I PM'd you his address, if you write a letter to him specifically asking about it and proiding a map he may be able to mark their route on there for you. But it has been 70 years so he may not recall either.

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Something that makes me think:

12 February 1942

Six Swordfish of No. 825 Squadron head out from their England into the Channel

They have Spitfire fighter cover

Their mission was to stop German battleships that broke out from Brest and were making a Channel Dash

The mission was a last ditch effort after lots of other problems, and it failed, and the ships got through

Six Swordfish were lost

Five of the 18 aircrew survived and were all awarded medals of bravery - four of them officers who received the Distinguished Service Order, and the lone other ranks survivor was awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Medal

Lieutenant Commander Eugene Esmonde who lead the raid and was killed in it was awarded the Victoria Cross

The mission becomes legendary and the heroes involved famous and won't ever be forgotten

26 January 1942

Vildebeest and Albacores of of No's 100 and 36 Squadrons flew TWO missions, plus one Hudson on the first of the raids

They flew much further to thier targets

The mission was to attack the Japanese ships landing their troops at Endau

Their fighter cover was not Spitfires, ir was merely Buffalo (though they did have the Master, Geoff Fisken, with them)

These men actually succeeded in hitting some of the ships and doing a fair bit of damage

The ultimate goal of the mission failed and the landing succeeded

Nine Vildebeest, an Albacore, and a Buffalo were lost, many to fighters on the way back

27 of the 72 Vilde crew were lost

The No. 100 Squadron commander was killed in the attack

Within weeks many of the survivors were POW's of the Japanese and remained so for the next three years, or died in captivity

Were any bravery awards dished out for this incredibly brave two-mission attack on the fleet at Endau? All I can find is the survivors were commended for their job by the Air Vice Marshal. Hmmm

Edited by Dave Homewood
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Hi Dave,

I agree. I find it amazing that the COs of 36 and 100 Sqns didn't get VCs, and many of the other crews should have received gallantry awards.

One minor point, the escort was provided by both Buffalos and Hurricanes and it was a Hurricane that was shot down. All Buffalos landed safely at Singapore, although at least one was badly shot up and probably damaged beyond repair.

Searches in the London Gazette, where gallantry awards were officially posted, might reveal some info about medals received by the Endau Raid participants. I certainly found none when I looked through the UK archives a few years ago but then I was looking for Buffalo-specific stuff and may have missed some.

KR

Mark

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Thanks for that. I forgot about the Hurricanes, sorry for the mix up.

I do not think Colin Gardner was awarded anything, and Ron Reid does not seem to have been awarded anything, and his gallantry continued when he was in the Dutch East Indies, He attacked another ship with his Albacore and hit it. He was captured and endured more than three years as a POW, building a railway - as the lead striker with one of the most physical jobs. To me he is a true hero.

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