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Tropical Sea Scheme on the 'Beest?


mhaselden

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Swmbo tells me I have an Azur Beeste coming my way for Crimbo, after reading this thread over the months it will be painted in combinations of green and brown. My little tribute to the brave men of 36 & 100 who flew these aircraft against the Japanese.

Nivk

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Thanks for the replies everyone. One problem with trying to search the Gazette for decorations is I simply cannot find a reference with the names of all the aircrew who took part. Can anyone recomend a book?

All I know apart from the two men i have met are the New Zealanders who were killed in the raid. There names I take from Errol Martyn's 'For Your Tomorrow' Volune One:

100 Sqn Pilot - NZ401769 Flight Sergeant David Bruce Smaill Lee, RNZAF, Aged 29 - Vildebeest III K6386

36 Sqn Pilot - NZ40965 Sergeant Andrew Martin Hearn Fleming, RNZAF, Aged 30 - Albacore I T9135

36 Sqn Pilot - NZ41503 Sergeant Thomas Steele Tanner, RNZAF, Aged 23 - Vildebeest III K6392

Lest We Forget

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  • 4 years later...

For those interested in the Vildebeest I have published an older interview I did with the late Don Mackenzie who's photos I published earlier in this thread some while back.

It is the latest Wings Over New Zealand Show episode, which you can listen to and download for free. In this episode I have delved into my archive and pulled out one of my earlier interviews from back in September 2009 with the late Flight Lieutenant Donald Malcolm Mackenzie AFC, mid, RNZAF, retired (NZ401776) of Hamilton.

Don joined the RNZAF on the 2nd of July 1940, and was on the third pilot’s War Course, learning to fly on Tiger Moths and Vildebeest, before he was posted to No. 100 Squadron RAF in Singapore in early 1941. Following several months there he was then posted to Ceylon in July 1941 where he tells his exotic tales of flying Vildebeests, Seals, Fulmars, Hudsons and Swordfish on patrols over the Indian Ocean protecting Ceylon.

He talks about the huge attack on Ceylon on the 25th of April 1942 when the aircraft of five Japanese aircraft carriers attacked the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force bases.

He was later posted to No. 22 Ferry Control Unit as a test pilot for aircraft following major servicing and repairs, and as a ferry pilot, which took him all over India and Burma.

Later Don was posted to London, England, and joined the Metropolitan Communications Flight of No. 510 Squadron based at Hendon, which was a VIP transport unit.

Here is the link to the recording which you can listen to and download for free

http://www.cambridgeairforce.org.nz/WONZShow/2016/07/don-mackenzie/

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  • 6 months later...
  • 2 years later...

The July 2019 Scale Aircraft Modelling has an article by  Paul Lucas summarising all the trials of the TSS on the Vildebeest. While it it is quite interesting, it does not appear to contain any new evidence and I would still paint mine as per previous posts here.

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9 hours ago, Ed Russell said:

The July 2019 Scale Aircraft Modelling has an article by  Paul Lucas summarising all the trials of the TSS on the Vildebeest. While it it is quite interesting, it does not appear to contain any new evidence and I would still paint mine as per previous posts here.

 

To paraphrase Monty Python,...this thread isn't dead yet!!!

 

Thanks for the info, Ed.  I'll need to look for the July 2019 SAM - that article would interest me greatly.  That said, there's (sadly) still not s shred of evidence that any Far East 'Beests wore the pretty green and blue scheme on operations. 

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On 3/22/2011 at 6:31 AM, occa said:

Very interesting, this is the first time I see this photo with a clear green, the previous ones had all a light bluish gray instead.

Is this a direct scan of the original?

Cheers,

Occa

Hi Occa,

 

The original is a 4x5 Kodachrome transparency at the Smithsonian's National Air and Space Museum; it clearly shows the the green.  The colors turn up in a Grumman schematic as Extra Dark Sea Gray, Light Sea Green, and Duck Egg Blue.  (While we understand that Duck Egg Blue meant "Sky," Grumman apparently didn't know this in 1940.  The photos clearly show the belly in a pale blue that might have been Sky Blue.)

All three colors seem to be confirmed by the Martlet I restoration at the FAA Museum.

 

Cheers,

 

 

Dana

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Finally had chance to review the SAM article.  Paul Lucas clearly had done a lot of deep research on the origins and trials of the scheme but the article ends with the Singapore Vildebeests being marked in accordance with AMO A.154/39: Type B roundels on upper wings and fuselage, Type A roundels under the wings and MSG code letters on the fuselage.  The article fails to address the different camouflage schemes we've discussed (at length/ad nauseam) on this thread. 

 

I'm also confused about the scope of this article.  The title reads "The Tropical Sea Scheme and the Vildebeest 1935-1942".  This article appears to cover the period 1935-1939 and yet it's identified as "Part 2".  Was there a "Part 1" and what did it cover?  Also, anyone know if there's a planned "Part 3"?

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6 hours ago, stevehnz said:

Be nice if he did, I enjoy these articles, they are good for discussion.

Steve.

I'm not so sure.  When they started out they were occasional but really excellent.  More recently I feel I detect a touch of "how am I going to fill up my two pages this month?" syndrome.

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True that he has often been jumping to conclusions for a while, but his articles probably are good for sales, and often contain very interesting bits of information.

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I see few if any others delving as deeply into the  UK records, and basing their published writings on these records, as opposed to relying on either the nearest AMO in the RAFMuseum book or just decades old guesses that have hardened into dogma.  Having said that, I do agree that some of his articles seem to lack his more meticulous style, and having to meet a deadline is often incompatible with deep research.  Nonetheless I feel that it is usually fairly easy to distinguish the depth of study and thought that has gone into his better work, and I see the latest article on Trop. Sea Schemes as one of these.

 

For those undecided about buying the issue for this alone, it deals in detail with the prewar experiments, including reports on the two different versions of Trop.SS that were tried in the Far East.  Presumably the follow-up article will have more to say about later events.

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53 minutes ago, Seahawk said:

More recently I feel I detect a touch of "how am I going to fill up my two pages this month?" syndrome.

Fair point perhaps Nick but I still think as Graham & Super Aero have said, they are or have been thoughtful articles which contain at least some good info &/or provoke thought & discussion. I pride myself I can mostly recognise  areas which I know to be contentious & worthy of asking questions of the assembled host, not that a definitive answer is ever guaranteed, witness this thread. ;)

Steve.

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12 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

I see few if any others delving as deeply into the  UK records, and basing their published writings on these records

Very fair point.  I admire Paul's stamina for such in-depth research and agree we would all be the poorer without it.

12 hours ago, Graham Boak said:

Having said that, I do agree that some of his articles seem to lack his more meticulous style...

You have said what I was trying to say, but with considerably greater delicacy.

Edited by Seahawk
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11 hours ago, Super Aereo said:

True that he has often been jumping to conclusions for a while, but his articles probably are good for sales, and often contain very interesting bits of information.

 

It’s not a recent thing (Spitfires in Low level PR scheme for example) but in general  his work is worth reading. 

Edited by Dave Fleming
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On 7/4/2019 at 9:37 AM, Graham Boak said:

I see few if any others delving as deeply into the  UK records,

I wish I could get to the National Archives without considerable expenditure of time and cash and then spend long enough there to find my way around the records as well as Paul obviously can. While he doesn't often touch on my areas of interest - Coastal Command and Devon/Cornwall airfields - I do read and often admire his articles.

 

The one under discussion I find very detailed, to the point where I get confused by it all and have to re-read sections before I even think I understand the various different trial schemes in various locations.

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  • 2 years later...

I recently came across this thread when I searched for info on the Vildebeeste in the Far East.

 

Having read through the posts, it seems that no-one, so far, has been able to offer definitive details on the camouflage scheme applied to the aircraft around the time of hostilities starting in this area.  Perhaps I can help a little.

 

Some 10 years ago, I was given a copy of a letter written by a former wireless operator who served on the early AMES units in the UK before being posted to 511 AMES and sent to Singapore to setup the unit.

 

Around October 1941, he volunteered to join 36 Sqn's Calibration Flt when it was formed earlier that month.  The flight had two Vildebeeste aeroplanes and was responsible for calibrating the newly installed radars in the south of the Malay Peninsular.  His first flight was on 27 October 1941 in K6391.  The last flight he undertook, also in K6391, was on 31 January 1942 from Singapore to Palembang and then on to Batavia.  The flight's second aircraft was K6393 which he also flew in several times.

 

On the second page of his letter he goes into some detail on what paint schemes were applied to the aircraft.  I quote exactly from his letter:

 

"The flight's two aircraft were VV K6391 and K6392.  These aircraft were in peacetime livery when the flight was formed.  We all mucked in with the 36 Sqn lads and painted them with the underside Duckegg blue and the top a green and brown mixture camouflage.  We had a lot of fun in those last few days of peace."

 

I hope that helps clarify at least how 36 Sqn painted their aeroplanes.

 

Although he mentions K6392 in his letter, his flying log, which I have also seen, only mentions K6391 and K6393.  The flying log was completed at the time.

 

Unfortunately, this chap is no longer with us so I cannot seek clarification on that point. 

 

Hope that helps a little.

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What has become clear is that the prewar trials were to be extended but the war came first, and there is no record- or the slightest evidence elsewhere - that these following trials were ever carried out.  No Tropical Sea Camouflage was adopted during the war.  Therefore it seems that one or two aircraft were so painted prewar, and no further pant was made available, but it is not known which individual aircraft nor whether this scheme lasted on the aircraft until late 1941.  If the fabric recovering was needed every two years, then this seems unlikely.  If the Far East followed the AM's blanket "everything in TLS" (a panic stations response if ever I saw one) then the scheme's retention seems even less likely.

 

Whether any Vildebeest were repainted into Temperate Sea Scheme at any stage is also unknown.  I don't have the dates in hand for the Hudsons or  Beauforts, but Blenheims seem to have been in this scheme during 1941.  

 

It would be entirely to the orders for the RAF's Calibration Flight to be painted in TLS.  That the aircraft were  peacetime livery suggests they were taken from storage, as there are several photos of service Vildebeests in camouflage.  These appear to show TLS, but given the varied appearances of TempSS  on different films in different light conditions, etc., it cannot be totally certain.  The appearance of TropSS after potentially two years fading in tropical condition is for the imagination.

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3 hours ago, lauriebe said:

I recently came across this thread when I searched for info on the Vildebeeste in the Far East.

 

Having read through the posts, it seems that no-one, so far, has been able to offer definitive details on the camouflage scheme applied to the aircraft around the time of hostilities starting in this area.  Perhaps I can help a little.

 

Some 10 years ago, I was given a copy of a letter written by a former wireless operator who served on the early AMES units in the UK before being posted to 511 AMES and sent to Singapore to setup the unit.

 

Around October 1941, he volunteered to join 36 Sqn's Calibration Flt when it was formed earlier that month.  The flight had two Vildebeeste aeroplanes and was responsible for calibrating the newly installed radars in the south of the Malay Peninsular.  His first flight was on 27 October 1941 in K6391.  The last flight he undertook, also in K6391, was on 31 January 1942 from Singapore to Palembang and then on to Batavia.  The flight's second aircraft was K6393 which he also flew in several times.

 

On the second page of his letter he goes into some detail on what paint schemes were applied to the aircraft.  I quote exactly from his letter:

 

"The flight's two aircraft were VV K6391 and K6392.  These aircraft were in peacetime livery when the flight was formed.  We all mucked in with the 36 Sqn lads and painted them with the underside Duckegg blue and the top a green and brown mixture camouflage.  We had a lot of fun in those last few days of peace."

 

I hope that helps clarify at least how 36 Sqn painted their aeroplanes.

 

Although he mentions K6392 in his letter, his flying log, which I have also seen, only mentions K6391 and K6393.  The flying log was completed at the time.

 

Unfortunately, this chap is no longer with us so I cannot seek clarification on that point. 

 

Hope that helps a little.

 

Firstly, well done for ploughing through the entire thread!  That shows some dedication!!! :)

 

Thank you so much for adding these first-hand details which, while not a smoking gun, certainly help tip the balance toward Dark Earth/Dark Green upper surfaces.  A (very) few photos of captured Vildebeests also show light undersides which would also jive with your description of duck egg blue (perhaps a local mix rather than the RAF Sky colour).

 

Regarding the serials, neither K6391 nor K693 appear in the 36 Sqn Operations Record Book per this other thread:

 

K6392 is a long-standing 36 Sqn machine and was flown throughout the 1940-1941 period.  

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