Buzz Beurling's Spitfire Mk.Vc BR323.

[Tango 1]

Hello chaps,

I'm in the middle of building the Special Hobby Spitfire Mk.Vc "Malta Defender" I have chosen to model BR323. Now I know that the general consensus is that these machines were tropical RAF camo oversprayed with a thin mix of blue. I was just wondering if there was an actual photo of the aircraft in question?

I plan to build the same aircraft twice, one in what is generally regarded as "accurate" and one in mid stone/blue camo. I have seen a few of these over the yeas and I love the scheme. I'd love to se a pic of the real aircraft as I'd like to do an accurate version as well.

Any help with this will be most welcome! Thanks!

[Tango 1]

.....................................

[Tango 1]

[darson]

Daz I've had a check of my references and drawn a big zero sorry.

[hacker]

[Jennings Heilig]

If you find one, you'll be a very wealthy man. A recent photo of Elvis hanging with Jimmy Hoffa would probably be easier to locate, not to mention a dozen hen's teeth to go with it.

J

[Tango 1]

Daz I've had a check of my references and drawn a big zero sorry.

Thanks for looking mate.

Hacker,

beautiful work, thank you for posting.

[Tango 1]

If you find one, you'll be a very wealthy man. A recent photo of Elvis hanging with Jimmy Hoffa would probably be easier to locate, not to mention a dozen hen's teeth to go with it.

J

Looks like you are right old chap. Saw Elvis in Tesco's last week and he tried to sell me one of these.............................

[hacker]

Hacker,

beautiful work, thank you for posting.

not mine it part of my data base in my computer l use for reference. I think it is a 1/48 Hasegawa kit converted to a Vc

Edited February 17, 2011 by hacker

[Test Graham]

Isn't there a photo in Steve Nichols Osprey book? I think it only shows the nose, with the very dark overspray common to many Malta Spits at this time.

My personal belief is that as UF.S it would have been in desert camouflage as delivered but without the UF unit codes. They could have been added on Malta, but photos of Hal Far based aircraft are rare. 601 was transferred to the Western Desert, but this fighter was left behind (unserviceable on the day?) and transferred to 249, where it will have gained the blue-grey and a T.x code. Writers do continue to refer to it as UF.S with 249 but was it still carrying the letters?

Edited February 17, 2011 by Graham Boak

[tonyot]

Isn't there a photo in Steve Nichols Osprey book? I think it only shows the nose, with the very dark overspray common to many Malta Spits at this time.

My personal belief is that as UF.S it would have been in desert camouflage as delivered but without the UF unit codes. They could have been added on Malta, but photos of Hal Far based aircraft are rare. 601 was transferred to the Western Desert, but this fighter was left behind (unserviceable on the day?) and transferred to 249, where it will have gained the blue-grey and a T.x code. Writers do continue to refer to it as UF.S with 249 but was it still carrying the letters?

For a lot of the time on Malta the squadrons took it in turns to fly whatever serviceable aircraft were available......so the unit markings did not really matter that much as you could have a 249 Sqn pilot flying a 185 Sqn aircraft! If you look into it there are plenty of occasions where pilots record in their log books the an aircraft wearing the code letters of another unit and this is most likely where the BR323, UF-S came from..Buerling`s log book! From memory I`m pretty sure that 601 Sqn left for Egypt by transport aircraft and their Spits on Malta were just left in the `general pool'. The ground crew were too busy to keep painting different code letters on different airframes and whatever was in place was left there until a fairly long quiet period took place when units began to get enough serviceable aircraft of their own once more which allowed the matter of codes to be sorted out. Although the underlying camouflage would have been desert cam the upper surfaces were probably covered with blue for camouflage against the sea.

All the best

Tony O

Edited February 17, 2011 by tonyot

[Test Graham]

Sharing between squadrons happened in the early days of Spitfires in the April/May 1942 siege, when only a handful of aircraft were serviceable. However, this doesn't seem to have been true for all of 1942, and particularly not at quiet times and between units on different bases.

601 took a large number (I haven't counted, but you can find them in Spitfire The History) of fairly newly-arrived Spitfires with them when they left Malta. They flew out with a squadron of fighters, obviously at a quiet time. (July?)

The blue-grey camouflage is particularly noted as being on 249 sq and other Takali-based aircraft, apart from those delivered on Operation Calendar. Not all Spitfires were repainted, even in the early days. Dennis Barnham, who flew a blue Calendar Spitfire himself, observed the crash of a desert camouflaged one, and that was comparatively early (he doesn't name dates).

[Tango 1]

Thanks for posting all this info chaps, very informative and very interesting!

[Tango 1]

This is the look I'm going for on my first build of BR323, I know that its not likely to be accurate, but I really like the scheme!

I will do my 2nd BR323 in the more acceptable blue/grey scheme and have both versions on my shelf.

I found this pic on the web, which bears out what has already been said. I thought some you you may find it interesting. Thanks to all for your help!

Edited February 17, 2011 by Tango 1

[Greenshirt]

I found this pic on the web, which bears out what has already been said. I thought some you you may find it interesting. Thanks to all for your help!

I've been following blue-grey Spitfires here and elsewhere on the web, in an attempt to get a feel for what they should have looked like. So far my notes indicate a number of possibilities; I'm now in a quandary as to what is most probable:

1) Desert Scheme lightly over sprayed with a blue-grey (not sure what shade) such that underlying scheme is visible but looks like two shades of blue

2) Desert Scheme with Mid-stone replaced by EDSG (least probable is my impression)

3) Desert Scheme repainted with light Mediterranean blue and dark Mediterranean blue (a decal ref actually recommends this)

4) Overall blue-grey (EDSG?)

5) Blue-grey (EDSG?) upper with Azure lower surfaces (BR112/X seems to point in this direction)

6) One of the above but with a blue-grey that is definitely NOT EDSG

I'm tempted to model 1 of each and simply use it as a source of whiff debate. I would like to have confidence in what is most probable though. I'm all ears...

Tim

Edited February 18, 2011 by Greenshirt

[Test Graham]

I've been following blue-grey Spitfires here and elsewhere on the web, in an attempt to get a feel for what they should have looked like. So far my notes indicate a number of possibilities; I'm now in a quandary as to what is most probable:

1) Desert Scheme lightly over sprayed with a blue-grey (not sure what shade) such that underlying scheme is visible but looks like two shades of blue

2) Desert Scheme with Mid-stone replaced by EDSG (least probable is my impression)

3) Desert Scheme repainted with light Mediterranean blue and dark Mediterranean blue (a decal ref actually recommends this)

4) Overall blue-grey (EDSG?)

5) Blue-grey (EDSG?) upper with Azure lower surfaces (BR112/X seems to point in this direction)

6) One of the above but with a blue-grey that is definitely NOT EDSG

I'm tempted to model 1 of each and simply use it as a source of whiff debate. I would like to have confidence in what is most probable though. I'm all ears...

Tim

1 is certainly possible

2 is certain: it was specifically described by a painter from a Beaufighter unit (speaking to the Malta War Museum), who leant them the EDSG but it had to be thinned because of shortages. There is a good clear photo of one Spitfire showing the MS part of the camouflage oversprayed fairly roughly.

3 is almost certainly false - probably based on a known piece of imaginative art in Spitfire, The Canadians. (Shame, really....)

4 not mentioned anywhere

5 yes, that was the Calendar deliveries. May not be Azure Blue but Sky Blue, according to Vasco Barbic, but certainly a light blue (Jack Rae's biography). May not be EDSG but it is appropriate and fits the behaviour in photos.

6 Why not EDSG? it was one of the recommended sea colours, it is very dark when applied, it goes bluer with time and fading. That matches the behaviour shown in photos. BR112/X does rather look like Light Mediterranean Blue but the colours looks too dark when fresh. The original overpainting of the first deliveries was described as a mixed dark grey - but that was by a pilot so how much direct knowledge he had is unknown. 1943 photos of a freshly-painted 249 sq a/c does make it look just like a postwar Seafire in EDSG/Sky - even down to the glossy appearance, in this particular case!

Given fading, wear and dust, any modeller has a fair margin on the exact shade of dark blue-grey he chooses to use. The precise origins are for arguing over the history rather than the modelling. Anything between EDSG and LMB will do.

[Greenshirt]

1 is certainly possible

2 is certain: it was specifically described by a painter from a Beaufighter unit (speaking to the Malta War Museum), who leant them the EDSG but it had to be thinned because of shortages. There is a good clear photo of one Spitfire showing the MS part of the camouflage oversprayed fairly roughly.

3 is almost certainly false - probably based on a known piece of imaginative art in Spitfire, The Canadians. (Shame, really....)

4 not mentioned anywhere

5 yes, that was the Calendar deliveries. May not be Azure Blue but Sky Blue, according to Vasco Barbic, but certainly a light blue (Jack Rae's biography). May not be EDSG but it is appropriate and fits the behaviour in photos.

6 Why not EDSG? it was one of the recommended sea colours, it is very dark when applied, it goes bluer with time and fading. That matches the behaviour shown in photos. BR112/X does rather look like Light Mediterranean Blue but the colours looks too dark when fresh. The original overpainting of the first deliveries was described as a mixed dark grey - but that was by a pilot so how much direct knowledge he had is unknown. 1943 photos of a freshly-painted 249 sq a/c does make it look just like a postwar Seafire in EDSG/Sky - even down to the glossy appearance, in this particular case!

Given fading, wear and dust, any modeller has a fair margin on the exact shade of dark blue-grey he chooses to use. The precise origins are for arguing over the history rather than the modelling. Anything between EDSG and LMB will do.

Thanks Graham,

1) I want to do this one just for the effect/look and to test my skills.

2) I like this scheme just because it's colorful. I'll definitely make one of those; was hoping it's reasonable and not fancy.

3) I figured it was false, as it was only in the decal reference and nowhere else.

4) My own interpretation based on use of blues and not really seeing a demarcation on one photo online. I cannot seem to find it now so will drop this as a possible subject.

5) I'll do this one using BR112/X as the subject because there's a photo to justify it. Sky Blue is not a variation I'd read before, but I like it as it's different. Is source the knowledge that Spitfires were on-loaded in Desert Scheme of MS/DE/SB vice MS/DE/Azure? Timing (early 1942) is such that other aircraft were delivered in theatre with SB undersides according to some of my references albeit others differ.

6) Another interpretation of mine based on availability of paint on WASP. EDSG seems more probable as something provided during on-load.

Now to start building...

Regards,

Tim

[Test Graham]

Source of Sky Blue is a statement in a letter that CB used Azure Blue for its tropical Spits whereas Supermarine used Sky Blue. It is very difficult to find hard information on the use of Sky Blue, for many of the more casual references may simply have been made by someone who didn't know the correct terminology. Just a generic "sky blue" rather than "Sky Blue".

[ViggenFan]

Another question about Spitfire Mk Vc:

The Exhaust stack should in most case be three fistails on each side. But what is tricky is which oned had a round hole tube extension in front and the bent pipe in the back that was for supplying warm air to the cannon compartments?!

Is there any way to tell which aircraft had this kind of stacks and which ones was without the hole in the front and or pipe in the back?

On some photos above you can see the pipe in the back and faint hint of the round role in the front.

Sword

The (AZ model) Admiral ADM 7220 1/72 Spitfire Mk.V.b trop "Beurling" EP706 T-L does not have this and the Sword SW 72070 1/72 Spitfire Mk.V.c BR 321 GL-J "Johnny Plagis" and BR 387 GL-W "John Yarra" do have the heater outlet pipe on the back.

I do not know is sword got this right or not and maybe some other Vc spits miss this feature nad vice versa.

Any one who has some insight into this?

[NPL]

good luck. It seems a mission impossible. What is really known about this plane? Not even the size of the 'S' is consistent from source to source. Is this a case that somnebody said something or painted up something, and the rest followed without thinking what they are doing?

[ViggenFan]

I have no info on the gun heating piping in the "SPITFIRE The History" book which I think is good reference read for all other specifics of variants trials and versions of the Spitfire family.

By the way has someone tired the 1/72 Defiant Mk.I Exhaust - Fishtail from Quickboost as I think would be same shape as MkV spitfires and could be modified to have the gun heating front tube and rear pipe that goes to the side of the fuselage.

Edited June 9, 2015 by ViggenFan

[Edgar]

The likeliest candidate for the relevant modification is 420 "To provide additional heating for Browning guns."

Interestingly the ledger lists it for the IIb & Vb, but an issued leaflet states that it was for the V, which implies that the Vc might have been added.

The work involved running the tubes through the leading edges of the wings, and out to the .303s, and it's interesting that putting it in a leaflet indicates that the work was thought to be within the capabilities of Service units, though it did say that the work was to be done when the "aeroplane is stripped for repair," and 30 man-hours were allowed for the task.

With the heights flown in the Med, it's possible that the mod was deemed unnecessary for the desert (and Malta?), which is why a photo is really vital.

[ViggenFan]

Thanks Edgar since it seems it was a in the field retrofit ther might not have been need or time or the parts delivered to the units to have them installed also i read about some trouble with the piping moving because of heat and cold and then the pipes got loos in the wing at the jionts oc the tubes.¨I still wonder if some kits wityh stright pipes at the back of the exhausts is stacks modified but the piping never installed or removed to save trouble and or weight who knows?

Edited June 9, 2015 by ViggenFan

[gingerbob]

I think that the mod was "de-activated" at some point (in the Med specifically?), and if you look carefully you'll often see exhausts with the tube, but no elbow behind and either an open hole in the cowling where it used to run in, or a patch over that spot. Not sure of the timing, offhand. Thus, my interpretation is:

1. "normal" exhausts
2. augmenter tube and elbow behind
3. augmenter tube in exhausts but not connected
4. "normal" exhausts (newer production and/or replacement stacks/engine?)

It is quite possible to find a mix on different aircraft, so I'm not suggesting that this is a strict progression of "mod state".

bob

[Malta]

Perhaps this may be able to shed some light on this. In the rear of my grandfathers inspection book from Malta 137MU, it has a list of signals outlining the many mods they had to carry out. One is for TX5160, which reads:

Sig TX5160

Follow Transmitted to all users of Spits by signal TX812 Spitfire and Seafire gun heating manifold special instructions

DA11? . Several cases reported of manifolds, Part number 17643 introduced by Mod 420 ix51, cracking at weld in front and allowing gun heater tubes to slide forward and foul prop. Pending supply of mod manifolds, with ??????? plates at front ?????contractors is supplying clips to be fitted to rear of heating tubes to restrict forward movement should ???????? /???????. During flight all manifolds concerned with and with out clips to be examined between flights for signs of cracking front end.

This mod was carried out on BR130, on of Beurling's spit he worked on. Which I guess means Mod 410 had previously been applied?

Here is a link to the relevant pages, https://plus.google.com/+StuartBeanCaptAhab/posts/aqrAJwb65Lk